RE: McLaren Senna: Driven
Discussion
RacerMike said:
It's a really good question, and I'm not entirely sure why! I'm obviously not the only one that gets wound up by them and if I was to maybe try and summarise what I find frustrating (that's probably the strongest word I can use) I'd probably say that I don't like the way they seem to market their cars as a sort of 'antithesis' to to the rest of the car industry (previously, particularly Ferrari although this seems to have died down in recent years. It's a little like they claim their cars are solely about their engineering prowess and greatness with no bs marketing at all.
And people, on the whole seem to believe it. The honest reality is though, that they're as marking led as anyone else. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. They absolutely play on the fact people believe them when they say 'no compromise' and 'fastest road car ever' without any actual backing up of those facts. The reality is, those claims are pretty much as vacuous as Ferrari saying that a car 'plays on the emotion of the great Enzo Ferrari and his search for perfection'. And yet when other companies make fairly technical claims, or lap time comparisons, it's immediately dismissed as rubbish. Why do McLaren seem to get this bizarre free pass on largely unsubstantiated claims?
I guess it’s a matter of perspective, because I don’t see any of that. I see the opposite - automatic derision of anything they produce. The Senna being the obvious case in point. Nearly everyone here and elsewhere declared it as the worst car ever made before it had even ‘turned a wheel’. And of course now, many of those people are backpedaling and making up stories about it being “colour sensitive”. Well yeah no sAnd people, on the whole seem to believe it. The honest reality is though, that they're as marking led as anyone else. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. They absolutely play on the fact people believe them when they say 'no compromise' and 'fastest road car ever' without any actual backing up of those facts. The reality is, those claims are pretty much as vacuous as Ferrari saying that a car 'plays on the emotion of the great Enzo Ferrari and his search for perfection'. And yet when other companies make fairly technical claims, or lap time comparisons, it's immediately dismissed as rubbish. Why do McLaren seem to get this bizarre free pass on largely unsubstantiated claims?
t Sherlock, some people perefer different colours to other people, and it’s a car, that comes in colours. But now it’s not st because it comes in blue? 
And none of this even has anything to do with the automatic view that those who can afford such machines are automatically crap drivers who would get comprehensively schooled by the average Pistonheads hero in his manual, naturally aspirated Golf R. It’s envy. Nothing more, nothing less
Edited by Kenny Powers on Thursday 28th June 06:47
br d said:
Max_Torque said:
indeed, but being 2s off the pole position in an actual race sees you starting WAY down the grid, and hence your lack of talent is impossibly to hide!
Being 2sec off the ultimate lap time in a Senna on a track where you aren't racing is not just irrelevant, it's very difficult to spot from the passenger seat, meaning you can impress your rich mates with your wheelmanship...... ;-)
I should probably just concentrate on enjoying the Brazil game but really Max you are coming across terribly bitter and immature here. Being 2sec off the ultimate lap time in a Senna on a track where you aren't racing is not just irrelevant, it's very difficult to spot from the passenger seat, meaning you can impress your rich mates with your wheelmanship...... ;-)
Why does it matter to you if Senna owners are impressive on the track or what their personal worth is?
This "Loads of money but no talent" nonsense is frankly nauseating.
it's a fact that the necessary talent to drive a modern high performance race car consistently at it's limit is rare, which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
I'm not jealous of people being able to buy something like the Senna (why would i be, i drove it 2 and half years ago and was paid to do so!) i was merely pointing out that people buy these "faux race" cars because they massage their ego's! (which they do, because there is no objective comparison. Buy a real race car, race it, and if your rubbish then there is no where to hide. Buy a faux race car, fly your helicopter into some flash European race track, spank round the track for a morning giving your mates a ride (has passenger seat remember) and dine out on your "hero" status for months.......)
Now, there are rich people with real driving talent, the sort of talent it takes to win races, but lets be honest with ourselves, for every one of those, there are a 1000 with flash supercars who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pigs a**e..... ;-)
Kenny Powers said:
And none of this even has anything to do with the automatic view that those who can afford such machines are automatically crap drivers who would get comprehensively schooled by the average Pistonheads hero in his manual, naturally aspirated Golf R. It’s envy. Nothing more, nothing less
It's amazing to see how many people can't (or don't) actually read and understand what is written, and therefore wind themselves up into a froth in indignation about something that was never said.......
Max_Torque said:
seriously?
it's a fact that the necessary talent to drive a modern high performance race car consistently at it's limit is rare, which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
I'm not jealous of people being able to buy something like the Senna (why would i be, i drove it 2 and half years ago and was paid to do so!) i was merely pointing out that people buy these "faux race" cars because they massage their ego's! (which they do, because there is no objective comparison. Buy a real race car, race it, and if your rubbish then there is no where to hide. Buy a faux race car, fly your helicopter into some flash European race track, spank round the track for a morning giving your mates a ride (has passenger seat remember) and dine out on your "hero" status for months.......)
Now, there are rich people with real driving talent, the sort of talent it takes to win races, but lets be honest with ourselves, for every one of those, there are a 1000 with flash supercars who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pigs a**e..... ;-)
Normally your posts are quite insightful but you sound like you're missing the point on a Himalayan scale of point-missing because you can't see past believing that customers either want or think they're buying a 'race car' and, whether you intend to or not, your posts read with a heavy undertone of bitterness and envy. it's a fact that the necessary talent to drive a modern high performance race car consistently at it's limit is rare, which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
I'm not jealous of people being able to buy something like the Senna (why would i be, i drove it 2 and half years ago and was paid to do so!) i was merely pointing out that people buy these "faux race" cars because they massage their ego's! (which they do, because there is no objective comparison. Buy a real race car, race it, and if your rubbish then there is no where to hide. Buy a faux race car, fly your helicopter into some flash European race track, spank round the track for a morning giving your mates a ride (has passenger seat remember) and dine out on your "hero" status for months.......)
Now, there are rich people with real driving talent, the sort of talent it takes to win races, but lets be honest with ourselves, for every one of those, there are a 1000 with flash supercars who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pigs a**e..... ;-)
Maybe dial it back a couple of notches?
I thought that car looked fine on the first pictures published, as the awful orange/blue colour combination made some kind of sense with its awful looks.
It's a bit sad though that McLaren Automotive seem to be all about making statements when they launch a new car, a bit like an overdone trailer for a block buster movie that everyone will have forgotten about in 6 months.
If cars need to look that ugly to go even faster than they already are then what's the point? Ah yes, just to make profit among wealthy folks who buy into the hype.
It's a bit sad though that McLaren Automotive seem to be all about making statements when they launch a new car, a bit like an overdone trailer for a block buster movie that everyone will have forgotten about in 6 months.
If cars need to look that ugly to go even faster than they already are then what's the point? Ah yes, just to make profit among wealthy folks who buy into the hype.
I'm sure if you are rich enough, and you want the ultimate Track car, it'll be great. You'll no doubt get special treatment from McLaren.
You'll get full support on track days, travel Europe to different Track events with your car, all under the exemplary corporate arm of McLaren, where you'll want for nothing.
But god it's ugly. Definitely designed in the Wind tunnel. But what a car. What an ultimate top trump car to own and be part of. No Doubt some of the Senna owners will also be part of Ferraris FXX programme too.
Must be nice
You'll get full support on track days, travel Europe to different Track events with your car, all under the exemplary corporate arm of McLaren, where you'll want for nothing.
But god it's ugly. Definitely designed in the Wind tunnel. But what a car. What an ultimate top trump car to own and be part of. No Doubt some of the Senna owners will also be part of Ferraris FXX programme too.
Must be nice
Rawwr said:
Max_Torque said:
seriously?
it's a fact that the necessary talent to drive a modern high performance race car consistently at it's limit is rare, which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
I'm not jealous of people being able to buy something like the Senna (why would i be, i drove it 2 and half years ago and was paid to do so!) i was merely pointing out that people buy these "faux race" cars because they massage their ego's! (which they do, because there is no objective comparison. Buy a real race car, race it, and if your rubbish then there is no where to hide. Buy a faux race car, fly your helicopter into some flash European race track, spank round the track for a morning giving your mates a ride (has passenger seat remember) and dine out on your "hero" status for months.......)
Now, there are rich people with real driving talent, the sort of talent it takes to win races, but lets be honest with ourselves, for every one of those, there are a 1000 with flash supercars who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pigs a**e..... ;-)
Normally your posts are quite insightful but you sound like you're missing the point on a Himalayan scale of point-missing because you can't see past believing that customers either want or think they're buying a 'race car' and, whether you intend to or not, your posts read with a heavy undertone of bitterness and envy. it's a fact that the necessary talent to drive a modern high performance race car consistently at it's limit is rare, which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
I'm not jealous of people being able to buy something like the Senna (why would i be, i drove it 2 and half years ago and was paid to do so!) i was merely pointing out that people buy these "faux race" cars because they massage their ego's! (which they do, because there is no objective comparison. Buy a real race car, race it, and if your rubbish then there is no where to hide. Buy a faux race car, fly your helicopter into some flash European race track, spank round the track for a morning giving your mates a ride (has passenger seat remember) and dine out on your "hero" status for months.......)
Now, there are rich people with real driving talent, the sort of talent it takes to win races, but lets be honest with ourselves, for every one of those, there are a 1000 with flash supercars who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pigs a**e..... ;-)
Maybe dial it back a couple of notches?
Not everyone wants to 'show off' - I certainly know my reasons for considering a car like this a purchase proposition and they have nothing to do with external validation/hero status; I know I'm not alone on that point. For a start, I simply like McLaren as a brand and think what they've achieved in such a short space of time is nothing short of amazing especially given the 'Automotive' arm of the company was dormant less than a decade ago.
You therefore can't 'merely' point out that people buy these type of cars to massage their egos then get defensive when you're called out for saying so; some people might well buy a car like this for that reason but to presume that they all do (which is precisely what your comments imply) is really why people are saying your posts in this instance massively smack of sour grapes and bitterness - regardless of winks or not.
Max_Torque said:
Which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
Sadly these days, it's not so much about talent and all about money. Well over 90% of people racing at any level these days are personally paying for it, and as such, mediocre talent trumps true talent if the mediocre talent has money. Over 50% of the Blancpain grid is AM, and most of these guys have nothing more than money and an interest in racing cars. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that probably over 50% of the people who've got a Senna on order already have a seat racing in said championship. Take a trip to the carpark at Silverstone when they're next there and you'll get an idea.....Whilst what I've written sounds bitter, it's not meant to be. I've been very lucky, and had some sponship. It's still possible to find a way in without being a millionaire personally, but the money involved is huge, and absolutely no team in the world gives out free drives these days.
stevie777777 said:
I am sure I must be in the minority - but in my eyes another pointless, ugly, overpriced track monster, will never be seen on a road other than near the burj al arab...
I saw one on the M20 on the way to Le Mans 2 weeks ago. Dark Green looked the nuts. So hopefully we do see more of them on the road. It was unmistakable. It was being driven at a sensible speed so must have been an early drive for a new owner. We all agreed that we hope to see more of them. I have met a chap who owns / has ordered one and he plans to drive it frequently which i utterly applaud. Off topic, but....
Also, Pistonheads is a small company. Its purpose is to try to provide people like us with a forum to discuss our favourite topics and provide articles to discuss debate and object to. You can argue why they only write a small number of articles or regurgitate press stuff from time to time but without doing so, it wouldn't be possible to run forums for members etc,. Cant be easy to keep everyone happy and try to cover costs / make a little profit..
I am bored to death of reading comments on every post where people feel the need to be critical of the editorial / typos etc. I usually have to go to the second page of comments to actually read comments and opinions about the topic covered in the article.
Cut the folks some slack sometimes... They are trying to provide relevant stuff for us to enjoy. See the good in what they are trying to do. Not always critical. This pedantry turns me off more than the occasional spelling mistake in an article.
This is my opinion and doesn't need a response, agreement or disagreement and shouldn't take over this thread either.
Cheers
Trevor
- climbs down off soapbox
Max_Torque said:
seriously?
it's a fact that the necessary talent to drive a modern high performance race car consistently at it's limit is rare, which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
I'm not jealous of people being able to buy something like the Senna (why would i be, i drove it 2 and half years ago and was paid to do so!) i was merely pointing out that people buy these "faux race" cars because they massage their ego's! (which they do, because there is no objective comparison. Buy a real race car, race it, and if your rubbish then there is no where to hide. Buy a faux race car, fly your helicopter into some flash European race track, spank round the track for a morning giving your mates a ride (has passenger seat remember) and dine out on your "hero" status for months.......)
Now, there are rich people with real driving talent, the sort of talent it takes to win races, but lets be honest with ourselves, for every one of those, there are a 1000 with flash supercars who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pigs a**e..... ;-)
I'm one of them. I buy Supercars and I can't drive a greasy stick up a pigs arse, why does it bother you? As long as I'm not hurting anybody else shouldn't I just be left to spend my own hard earned money how I see fit?it's a fact that the necessary talent to drive a modern high performance race car consistently at it's limit is rare, which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
I'm not jealous of people being able to buy something like the Senna (why would i be, i drove it 2 and half years ago and was paid to do so!) i was merely pointing out that people buy these "faux race" cars because they massage their ego's! (which they do, because there is no objective comparison. Buy a real race car, race it, and if your rubbish then there is no where to hide. Buy a faux race car, fly your helicopter into some flash European race track, spank round the track for a morning giving your mates a ride (has passenger seat remember) and dine out on your "hero" status for months.......)
Now, there are rich people with real driving talent, the sort of talent it takes to win races, but lets be honest with ourselves, for every one of those, there are a 1000 with flash supercars who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pigs a**e..... ;-)
This thing is all a bit circular, if you can't tell from the reactions you're getting here that you are coming across badly then we're all wasting our time.
br d said:
I buy Supercars and I can't drive a greasy stick up a pigs arse, why does it bother you? As long as I'm not hurting anybody else shouldn't I just be left to spend my own hard earned money how I see fit?
Quite. I'd even go further and say that whether someone drives a Ka, an Exige or a Senna, the proportion of people who don't have the ability to drive it to its full potential is probably broadly similar. So long as someone enjoys it and their talent - or lack thereof - doesn't impact anyone else, why try to qualify and denigrate? br d said:
Max_Torque said:
seriously?
it's a fact that the necessary talent to drive a modern high performance race car consistently at it's limit is rare, which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
I'm not jealous of people being able to buy something like the Senna (why would i be, i drove it 2 and half years ago and was paid to do so!) i was merely pointing out that people buy these "faux race" cars because they massage their ego's! (which they do, because there is no objective comparison. Buy a real race car, race it, and if your rubbish then there is no where to hide. Buy a faux race car, fly your helicopter into some flash European race track, spank round the track for a morning giving your mates a ride (has passenger seat remember) and dine out on your "hero" status for months.......)
Now, there are rich people with real driving talent, the sort of talent it takes to win races, but lets be honest with ourselves, for every one of those, there are a 1000 with flash supercars who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pigs a**e..... ;-)
I'm one of them. I buy Supercars and I can't drive a greasy stick up a pigs arse, why does it bother you? As long as I'm not hurting anybody else shouldn't I just be left to spend my own hard earned money how I see fit?it's a fact that the necessary talent to drive a modern high performance race car consistently at it's limit is rare, which is why most people aren't racing drivers. And it's a fact that being a multi-millionaire is also pretty rare. So the overlap, well, that's really, really small.
I'm not jealous of people being able to buy something like the Senna (why would i be, i drove it 2 and half years ago and was paid to do so!) i was merely pointing out that people buy these "faux race" cars because they massage their ego's! (which they do, because there is no objective comparison. Buy a real race car, race it, and if your rubbish then there is no where to hide. Buy a faux race car, fly your helicopter into some flash European race track, spank round the track for a morning giving your mates a ride (has passenger seat remember) and dine out on your "hero" status for months.......)
Now, there are rich people with real driving talent, the sort of talent it takes to win races, but lets be honest with ourselves, for every one of those, there are a 1000 with flash supercars who couldn't drive a greasy stick up a pigs a**e..... ;-)
This thing is all a bit circular, if you can't tell from the reactions you're getting here that you are coming across badly then we're all wasting our time.
Max is pointing out the obvious really. Perhaps in a bit of a ham-fisted way but nothing he says here appears to me to be jealousy over objective analysis.
br d said:
I'm one of them. I buy Supercars and I can't drive a greasy stick up a pigs arse, why does it bother you? As long as I'm not hurting anybody else shouldn't I just be left to spend my own hard earned money how I see fit?
Probably because spending that much money on such a non-essential device ultimately results in removing any sense from the device itself and badly affects its residuals?Do folks who spend that much in a "fun fast car" actually realise how much of a vicious and costly circle this dead end game of buying the assumed "best" of the latest "fun fastest car" is getting?
Thom said:
br d said:
I'm one of them. I buy Supercars and I can't drive a greasy stick up a pigs arse, why does it bother you? As long as I'm not hurting anybody else shouldn't I just be left to spend my own hard earned money how I see fit?
Probably because spending that much money on such a non-essential device ultimately results in removing any sense from the device itself and badly affects its residuals?Do folks who spend that much in a "fun fast car" actually realise how much of a vicious and costly circle this dead end game of buying the assumed "best" of the latest "fun fastest car" is getting?
RacerMike said:
Sadly these days, it's not so much about talent and all about money. Well over 90% of people racing at any level these days are personally paying for it, and as such, mediocre talent trumps true talent if the mediocre talent has money. Over 50% of the Blancpain grid is AM, and most of these guys have nothing more than money and an interest in racing cars. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that probably over 50% of the people who've got a Senna on order already have a seat racing in said championship. Take a trip to the carpark at Silverstone when they're next there and you'll get an idea.....
To be fair to those guys though, they are keeping a lot of pro racing drivers in a job as well. Gt Pro gets the headlines but overall GT racing exists mostly for 'gentleman racers' as I believe the term is called and it's been hardly unknown for a team to be packed with good pro drivers (that through various chicanery stayed below gold driver level) with the amateur driver paying for the whole deal doing the shortest possible stint only but is most prominent when handing out prizes is concerned..... Still, as long as the chap paying for it is enjoying himself, fair play to him I suppose.isaldiri said:
RacerMike said:
Sadly these days, it's not so much about talent and all about money. Well over 90% of people racing at any level these days are personally paying for it, and as such, mediocre talent trumps true talent if the mediocre talent has money. Over 50% of the Blancpain grid is AM, and most of these guys have nothing more than money and an interest in racing cars. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that probably over 50% of the people who've got a Senna on order already have a seat racing in said championship. Take a trip to the carpark at Silverstone when they're next there and you'll get an idea.....
To be fair to those guys though, they are keeping a lot of pro racing drivers in a job as well. Gt Pro gets the headlines but overall GT racing exists mostly for 'gentleman racers' as I believe the term is called and it's been hardly unknown for a team to be packed with good pro drivers (that through various chicanery stayed below gold driver level) with the amateur driver paying for the whole deal doing the shortest possible stint only but is most prominent when handing out prizes is concerned..... Still, as long as the chap paying for it is enjoying himself, fair play to him I suppose.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff