RE: 280mph SSC Tuatara confirmed for Pebble Beach
Discussion
C70R said:
This doesn't make the SSC rubbish. It just brings into sharp focus how much better a car the Veyron is.
Right. It doesn't. They Bugattis ARE better general purpose cars.The problem is, that's NOT what we're discussing.
The SSC meets the criteria for a production car for holding the world production car speed record including production number requirements and licensing requirements and multiple nation sales requirements.
The previous SSC model also met all those requirements
The previous SSC model also was faster than the Bugatti Veyron
The previous SSC model took the title away from the Bugatti Veryon
Bugatti did have to engineer a better Veryon to recapture the title from SSC (by about the same amount SSC beat them by before)
Nobody said it was a "better car" than the Veyron (which, of course, depends on your criteria)
But it's not some startup one-off car maker with no history. It is a company that produced a world record car that beat Bugatti under the same rules.
MikeGalos said:
Right. It doesn't. They Bugattis ARE better general purpose cars.
The problem is, that's NOT what we're discussing.
The SSC meets the criteria for a production car for holding the world production car speed record including production number requirements and licensing requirements and multiple nation sales requirements.
The previous SSC model also met all those requirements
The previous SSC model also was faster than the Bugatti Veyron
The previous SSC model took the title away from the Bugatti Veryon
Bugatti did have to engineer a better Veryon to recapture the title from SSC (by about the same amount SSC beat them by before)
Nobody said it was a "better car" than the Veyron (which, of course, depends on your criteria)
But it's not some startup one-off car maker with no history. It is a company that produced a world record car that beat Bugatti under the same rules.
But the concern most people had is that it's not a serious car manufacturer. And I'm afraid that just beating an arbitrary top speed at the expense of everything else doesn't make them a serious car manufacture.The problem is, that's NOT what we're discussing.
The SSC meets the criteria for a production car for holding the world production car speed record including production number requirements and licensing requirements and multiple nation sales requirements.
The previous SSC model also met all those requirements
The previous SSC model also was faster than the Bugatti Veyron
The previous SSC model took the title away from the Bugatti Veryon
Bugatti did have to engineer a better Veryon to recapture the title from SSC (by about the same amount SSC beat them by before)
Nobody said it was a "better car" than the Veyron (which, of course, depends on your criteria)
But it's not some startup one-off car maker with no history. It is a company that produced a world record car that beat Bugatti under the same rules.
As a thought experiment, if Red Victor (the worlds 'fastest' street legal Funny Car) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037675/Pe... was reproduced 50 times (which is honestly perfectly possible and probably comparable for price to something like this Tuatara), would that also count? Would it also be comparable to the Bugatti? Or the Koenigsegg?
MikeGalos said:
Right. It doesn't. They Bugattis ARE better general purpose cars.
The problem is, that's NOT what we're discussing.
The SSC meets the criteria for a production car for holding the world production car speed record including production number requirements and licensing requirements and multiple nation sales requirements.
The previous SSC model also met all those requirements
The previous SSC model also was faster than the Bugatti Veyron
The previous SSC model took the title away from the Bugatti Veryon
Bugatti did have to engineer a better Veryon to recapture the title from SSC (by about the same amount SSC beat them by before)
Nobody said it was a "better car" than the Veyron (which, of course, depends on your criteria)
But it's not some startup one-off car maker with no history. It is a company that produced a world record car that beat Bugatti under the same rules.
But it is what we are discussing The problem is, that's NOT what we're discussing.
The SSC meets the criteria for a production car for holding the world production car speed record including production number requirements and licensing requirements and multiple nation sales requirements.
The previous SSC model also met all those requirements
The previous SSC model also was faster than the Bugatti Veyron
The previous SSC model took the title away from the Bugatti Veryon
Bugatti did have to engineer a better Veryon to recapture the title from SSC (by about the same amount SSC beat them by before)
Nobody said it was a "better car" than the Veyron (which, of course, depends on your criteria)
But it's not some startup one-off car maker with no history. It is a company that produced a world record car that beat Bugatti under the same rules.
That is to say, regardless of what Wikipedia or some other source classifies as a production car - in the context of the skepticism that you’re taking issue with - cars like the Bugatti are what we classify as one. That’s not to take anything away from the SSC if it achieves the record, but you must surely see the angle of approach from skeptics questioning its “production car” credentials when there are far more rounded and accomplished vehicles being produced. Even if technically we are wrong.
Nuances. Life isn’t black & white or lived by a list of bullet points
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
This doesn't make the SSC rubbish. It just brings into sharp focus how much better a car the Veyron is.
Right. It doesn't. They Bugattis ARE better general purpose cars.The problem is, that's NOT what we're discussing.
The SSC meets the criteria for a production car for holding the world production car speed record including production number requirements and licensing requirements and multiple nation sales requirements.
The previous SSC model also met all those requirements
The previous SSC model also was faster than the Bugatti Veyron
The previous SSC model took the title away from the Bugatti Veryon
Bugatti did have to engineer a better Veryon to recapture the title from SSC (by about the same amount SSC beat them by before)
Nobody said it was a "better car" than the Veyron (which, of course, depends on your criteria)
But it's not some startup one-off car maker with no history. It is a company that produced a world record car that beat Bugatti under the same rules.
Nobody ever doubted the fact that the SSC is impressive - in fact, I've said that multiple times. Nobody ever doubted that it "met the criteria" to be considered a production car. Nobody ever doubted that it was marginally faster than the Veyron.
However, what everyone in this thread (except you) seems to agree is that in spite of the SSC's ability to go <2mph faster than the 'cooking' Veyron, it is orders of magnitude less impressive as a feat of engineering.
As a method of going fast in a straight line, the SSC undoubtedly slightly superior to the original Veyron. As an overall engineering accomplishment, it's inferior in almost every single way.
C70R said:
Everything in bold is your interpretation of a series of technicalities.
No. What I listed was the criteria used to qualify for the record.That they don't require starting up easily on a cold day and having an air-conditioner that works on a hot day in Dubai isn't up to me or to you.
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
Everything in bold is your interpretation of a series of technicalities.
No. What I listed was the criteria used to qualify for the record.That they don't require starting up easily on a cold day and having an air-conditioner that works on a hot day in Dubai isn't up to me or to you.
Spelled out explicitly, for the hard-of-thinking...
- What the record people define as a "production car" is extraordinarily narrow, and bears almost no relationship with the definition used by the ENORMOUS majority of people (and everyone bar you in this thread).
- As a consequence, while the SSC meets the minimal record criteria, it doesn't meet the "production car" criteria for the ENORMOUS majority of people.
- Given that a car which goes only <2mph slower does meet these significantly extended criteria...
- ...it's easy to see why people are significantly more impressed with it.
- None of this detracts from the SSC being very impressive.
C70R said:
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
Everything in bold is your interpretation of a series of technicalities.
No. What I listed was the criteria used to qualify for the record.That they don't require starting up easily on a cold day and having an air-conditioner that works on a hot day in Dubai isn't up to me or to you.
Spelled out explicitly, for the hard-of-thinking...
- What the record people define as a "production car" is extraordinarily narrow, and bears almost no relationship with the definition used by the ENORMOUS majority of people (and everyone bar you in this thread).
- As a consequence, while the SSC meets the minimal record criteria, it doesn't meet the "production car" criteria for the ENORMOUS majority of people.
- Given that a car which goes only <2mph slower does meet these significantly extended criteria...
- ...it's easy to see why people are significantly more impressed with it.
- None of this detracts from the SSC being very impressive.
This is a discussion of SSC's likelihood of crossing the 280mph mark under the rules for "Fastest Production Car".
Those are the criteria that are relevant.
That some people hate that their favorite fantasy car will lose out to a small garage-shop operation is sad for them but doesn't change it to "I want the article to be about what I think it should mean"
It's kind of like the people who complained that garage-shop Lotus kept winning F1 and made the best handling production cars without making their own engines.
Sorry if your Volkswagen car isn't going to be better at this actual challenge. It won't be for a while. That's life.
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
Everything in bold is your interpretation of a series of technicalities.
No. What I listed was the criteria used to qualify for the record.That they don't require starting up easily on a cold day and having an air-conditioner that works on a hot day in Dubai isn't up to me or to you.
Spelled out explicitly, for the hard-of-thinking...
- What the record people define as a "production car" is extraordinarily narrow, and bears almost no relationship with the definition used by the ENORMOUS majority of people (and everyone bar you in this thread).
- As a consequence, while the SSC meets the minimal record criteria, it doesn't meet the "production car" criteria for the ENORMOUS majority of people.
- Given that a car which goes only <2mph slower does meet these significantly extended criteria...
- ...it's easy to see why people are significantly more impressed with it.
- None of this detracts from the SSC being very impressive.
This is a discussion of SSC's likelihood of crossing the 280mph mark under the rules for "Fastest Production Car".
Those are the criteria that are relevant.
That some people hate that their favorite fantasy car will lose out to a small garage-shop operation is sad for them but doesn't change it to "I want the article to be about what I think it should mean"
It's kind of like the people who complained that garage-shop Lotus kept winning F1 and made the best handling production cars without making their own engines.
Sorry if your Volkswagen car isn't going to be better at this actual challenge. It won't be for a while. That's life.
I’m assuming you have a connection with SSC perhaps? If so, then all the best with the project. I hope someone there realises that to be profitable the car will need to function on the levels mentioned, and top speed alone won’t help. Today’s buyers of cars (hypercar or otherwise) need more than just a top speed. Anything you say won’t change this fact. I work for an OEM and I’ve seen first hand just how much effort it takes to make a car work properly. SSC simply won’t have the facilities to do this. Unless they have a backer with the surname Musk and several billion dollars....
There’s a reason that all of these start up supercers haven’t succeeded. They completely missed the fact that arbirtrary performance numbers are not ultimately why people buy a car. They buy a car that has a solid warranty, decent resale, daily useability and refinement. The Tuatura is unlikely to offer any of this.
RacerMike said:
Oh Jesus. Well. I think this is one of those situations where you’re just have to agree to disagree.
I detect an element of perhaps overly enthusiastic patriotism from MikeGalos. To be fair though it’s a laudable quality in comparison to a “United Kingdom” where everyone nowadays seems to take joy in loading criticism and misery onto everything we do 
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
MikeGalos said:
C70R said:
Everything in bold is your interpretation of a series of technicalities.
No. What I listed was the criteria used to qualify for the record.That they don't require starting up easily on a cold day and having an air-conditioner that works on a hot day in Dubai isn't up to me or to you.
Spelled out explicitly, for the hard-of-thinking...
- What the record people define as a "production car" is extraordinarily narrow, and bears almost no relationship with the definition used by the ENORMOUS majority of people (and everyone bar you in this thread).
- As a consequence, while the SSC meets the minimal record criteria, it doesn't meet the "production car" criteria for the ENORMOUS majority of people.
- Given that a car which goes only <2mph slower does meet these significantly extended criteria...
- ...it's easy to see why people are significantly more impressed with it.
- None of this detracts from the SSC being very impressive.
This is a discussion of SSC's likelihood of crossing the 280mph mark under the rules for "Fastest Production Car".
Those are the criteria that are relevant.
That some people hate that their favorite fantasy car will lose out to a small garage-shop operation is sad for them but doesn't change it to "I want the article to be about what I think it should mean"
It's kind of like the people who complained that garage-shop Lotus kept winning F1 and made the best handling production cars without making their own engines.
Sorry if your Volkswagen car isn't going to be better at this actual challenge. It won't be for a while. That's life.
This is a thread about SSC and Production Car records. SSC is generating hot air (again) about a car that barely qualifies as a "production car" unless you're the sort of highly-strung, basement-dweller who likes winning arguments on technicalities.
What everyone except you in this thread keeps saying, for those who like quoting arbitrary rules to 'win arguments', is "Yeah, the SSC is impressive; but I'm more impressed that I can pop to the shops in the Veyron with its <2mph lower top speed."
Take a deep breath, put the Mountain Dew down, and try looking at it from a slightly different perspective.
Bit of a thread revival, but Mr Prior has put the points raised here more eloquently than I can on Autocar's website. Worth a read:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/tester%E2%80%99s...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/tester%E2%80%99s...
RacerMike said:
Bit of a thread revival, but Mr Prior has put the points raised here more eloquently than I can on Autocar's website. Worth a read:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/tester%E2%80%99s...
Not quite sure this is in the same league as SSC, even though I understand the sentiment. SSC has created some very real and impressive cars, even if they are pretty marginal when it comes to what a layman would consider a "production" car.https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/tester%E2%80%99s...
C70R said:
RacerMike said:
Bit of a thread revival, but Mr Prior has put the points raised here more eloquently than I can on Autocar's website. Worth a read:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/tester%E2%80%99s...
Not quite sure this is in the same league as SSC, even though I understand the sentiment. SSC has created some very real and impressive cars, even if they are pretty marginal when it comes to what a layman would consider a "production" car.https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/tester%E2%80%99s...
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