RE: Porsche 911 (997) Carrera S: Spotted
Discussion
Cold said:
Over in the Porsche area of PH there's a multi page poll about reliability and a similarly long thread about engine rebuilds. The poll isn't counting RMS failures as apparently it's not deemed a serious enough fault to justify moaning about or recording.
Poll stats to date are No faults: 418, Rebuild due to major engine faults: 165
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&...
Further down in the Aston forum, there's no requirement for such a thread or poll.
How long do AM clutches last?Poll stats to date are No faults: 418, Rebuild due to major engine faults: 165
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&...
Further down in the Aston forum, there's no requirement for such a thread or poll.
Virtually every performance car has it's foibles, the M96/97 issues are overblown albeit they do actually exist & Porsche could perhaps have handled it better.
J4CKO said:
Out of interest, does anyone know what an engine rebuild costs on other cars of comparable performance ?
Ten grand seems like a lot of money but is that because its a Porsche, or thats just what a full engine rebuild costs ?
It costs 100 grand when it was new will have some bearing (the only bearing still left...) but its only a six cylinder engine, a 370Z has a six cylinder engine with a near enough comparable power output, if you break one of those is that ten grand to rebuild ? or is that a case of they dont really break so it isnt an issue and if you do its £1500 for one from a breaker and about £800 to get it fitted.
I suppose with 911s having these issues, S/H engines are rare and an unknown quantity anyway.
Is it because they are not as straightforward to rebuild as other engines or parts are more expensive ?
Just seems a hell of a lot of money.
A six cylinder is a six cylinder, the bearings are probably the same material as any other, the time to remove the engine is probably similar to most others.Ten grand seems like a lot of money but is that because its a Porsche, or thats just what a full engine rebuild costs ?
It costs 100 grand when it was new will have some bearing (the only bearing still left...) but its only a six cylinder engine, a 370Z has a six cylinder engine with a near enough comparable power output, if you break one of those is that ten grand to rebuild ? or is that a case of they dont really break so it isnt an issue and if you do its £1500 for one from a breaker and about £800 to get it fitted.
I suppose with 911s having these issues, S/H engines are rare and an unknown quantity anyway.
Is it because they are not as straightforward to rebuild as other engines or parts are more expensive ?
Just seems a hell of a lot of money.
Looking at these in isolation then rebuilding my Alfa V6 would be comparable in price but of course people will say 'it's a Porche/Lamborghini/Ferrari/Aston' so happily pay double.
And of course ^^ this lot ^^ will happily charge them twice the price knowing that the customer would feel conned if it wasn't.
A main or big end bearing is much the same whichever engine they go in...
I bet if you layed out the standard parts Fiat produce that go in a Ferrari and a bog standard Fiat, the prices would be miles apart, maybe it's the wrapping paper?
Why is anyone talking about it being a £100,000 car?
I bought mine in 2005 for £65k in Basalt Black and having a 20mm and lsd option (no cost). I ran it for 25,000 miles and two years later sold it for £42k This made it one of the cheapest cars I have ever owned depreciation wise.
I wouldn't buy one now as I think the 981 Boxster S is a far better car. It handles and sounds much more intoxicatingly. I also prefer the styling.
I bought mine in 2005 for £65k in Basalt Black and having a 20mm and lsd option (no cost). I ran it for 25,000 miles and two years later sold it for £42k This made it one of the cheapest cars I have ever owned depreciation wise.
I wouldn't buy one now as I think the 981 Boxster S is a far better car. It handles and sounds much more intoxicatingly. I also prefer the styling.
Fittster said:
jjr1 said:
Why is anyone talking about it being a £100,000 car?.
Spec a 911 from the Porsche website and you'll have trouble getting change from 100K.
Why does every thread about the 996/997 has to be the same discussion over and over again?
If you are interested, there are numerous threads in the PH Porsche section with a concentrated charge of knowledge.
In short yes, there are two issues with them. IMS failure (easy to rectify if it hasn't failed yet) and bore scoring (preventative measures help reducing the problem).
Sure, there might be some other small stuff like air con radiators (absence of a protective grill), but in general they are incredible cars built to a very high standard. They where properly engineered to be sports cars from scratch and feature some very clever and unique design features.
You might have me pegged as a fanboy, fine, do so, but I can't deny that the 911is so much to so many people.
An other point of view:
Porsche built 150'00 996 and 105'000 997.1 (excluding GT's and Turbo, and you would have to include the 986 and 987.1 types as well) now imagine if the problem would be really as big as some on the internet make you believe, Porsche would be out of business today!
Yes, there is a chance you end up with an expensive engine rebuild, but every man made component might fail at some point.
If you do your homework and take the gamble, you might end up with what is a truly great car and is one of the sweet spots in modern car history in terms of engine, drivetrain, chassis and body!
If you are interested, there are numerous threads in the PH Porsche section with a concentrated charge of knowledge.
In short yes, there are two issues with them. IMS failure (easy to rectify if it hasn't failed yet) and bore scoring (preventative measures help reducing the problem).
Sure, there might be some other small stuff like air con radiators (absence of a protective grill), but in general they are incredible cars built to a very high standard. They where properly engineered to be sports cars from scratch and feature some very clever and unique design features.
You might have me pegged as a fanboy, fine, do so, but I can't deny that the 911is so much to so many people.
An other point of view:
Porsche built 150'00 996 and 105'000 997.1 (excluding GT's and Turbo, and you would have to include the 986 and 987.1 types as well) now imagine if the problem would be really as big as some on the internet make you believe, Porsche would be out of business today!
Yes, there is a chance you end up with an expensive engine rebuild, but every man made component might fail at some point.
If you do your homework and take the gamble, you might end up with what is a truly great car and is one of the sweet spots in modern car history in terms of engine, drivetrain, chassis and body!
Filibuster said:
Why does every thread about the 996/997 has to be the same discussion over and over again?
If you are interested, there are numerous threads in the PH Porsche section with a concentrated charge of knowledge.
In short yes, there are two issues with them. IMS failure (easy to rectify if it hasn't failed yet) and bore scoring (preventative measures help reducing the problem).
Sure, there might be some other small stuff like air con radiators (absence of a protective grill), but in general they are incredible cars built to a very high standard. They where properly engineered to be sports cars from scratch and feature some very clever and unique design features.
You might have me pegged as a fanboy, fine, do so, but I can't deny that the 911is so much to so many people.
An other point of view:
Porsche built 150'00 996 and 105'000 997.1 (excluding GT's and Turbo, and you would have to include the 986 and 987.1 types as well) now imagine if the problem would be really as big as some on the internet make you believe, Porsche would be out of business today!
Yes, there is a chance you end up with an expensive engine rebuild, but every man made component might fail at some point.
If you do your homework and take the gamble, you might end up with what is a truly great car and is one of the sweet spots in modern car history in terms of engine, drivetrain, chassis and body!
I agree that it is repetitive no doubt but not with the logic of some of your other pointsIf you are interested, there are numerous threads in the PH Porsche section with a concentrated charge of knowledge.
In short yes, there are two issues with them. IMS failure (easy to rectify if it hasn't failed yet) and bore scoring (preventative measures help reducing the problem).
Sure, there might be some other small stuff like air con radiators (absence of a protective grill), but in general they are incredible cars built to a very high standard. They where properly engineered to be sports cars from scratch and feature some very clever and unique design features.
You might have me pegged as a fanboy, fine, do so, but I can't deny that the 911is so much to so many people.
An other point of view:
Porsche built 150'00 996 and 105'000 997.1 (excluding GT's and Turbo, and you would have to include the 986 and 987.1 types as well) now imagine if the problem would be really as big as some on the internet make you believe, Porsche would be out of business today!
Yes, there is a chance you end up with an expensive engine rebuild, but every man made component might fail at some point.
If you do your homework and take the gamble, you might end up with what is a truly great car and is one of the sweet spots in modern car history in terms of engine, drivetrain, chassis and body!
Firstly I have had 986, 987, 997 and have not found them to be reliable or especially well-built cars. My 10 year old Maserati has so far cost less to run than my 6 year old 997 did and that is ridiculous. The water cooled cars have numerous expensive faults such as coolant pipes corroding, alternator wiring perishing, air con & cooling rads corroding, roof mechanisms failing, coolant header tanks failing, road springs snapping, 2nd gear synchros failing, PASM dampers failing, gear linkage cables snapping leaving you stranded, coil packs failing, steering racks leaking etc. Idiotic placement of the alarm control box at the lowest point in the car's body, in 986 & 996, leaving many owners with £2k bills if water got in. And complete exhaust components, manifolds, boxes, straps, studs etc, all made of mild steel that rusts faster than a British Leyland Mini and take an age to get off
The problem with the engines is huge, a £10k rebuild on a £12k 3.4 Boxster S is a disaster for the owner. I doubt Hartech would exist as a bespoke engine rebuilder if it wasn't a big problem providing them with a constant stream of work and they are just one
The way Porsche handled it was a corporate disgrace, they were incredibly slow and ineffective at changing the design, and offered little to no help to their enthusiast / loyal customers.
What do the competitor cars suffer from? R8 engine carbon build up costs under £1k to sort out and needs doing every 50,000 miles, Mag ride can fail as it can on the Maserati and costs £1k a corner but so it does on the 911 too. Aston Vantage... corrosion round the wing mirrors and door handles, and short clutch life from 30-50k miles. They aren't in the same ball park. Even the Maserati Variator issue that Maserati had the common sense to design out of the engine after certan chassis numbers, is only a £3k fix. Jag F Type I am not aware of any issues.
jakesmith said:
Firstly I have had 986, 987, 997 and have not found them to be reliable or especially well-built cars. My 10 year old Maserati has so far cost less to run than my 6 year old 997 did and that is ridiculous. The water cooled cars have numerous expensive faults such as coolant pipes corroding, alternator wiring perishing, air con & cooling rads corroding, roof mechanisms failing, coolant header tanks failing, road springs snapping, 2nd gear synchros failing, PASM dampers failing, gear linkage cables snapping leaving you stranded, coil packs failing, steering racks leaking etc. Idiotic placement of the alarm control box at the lowest point in the car's body, in 986 & 996, leaving many owners with £2k bills if water got in. And complete exhaust components, manifolds, boxes, straps, studs etc, all made of mild steel that rusts faster than a British Leyland Mini and take an age to get off
But aren't those things stuff that can happen to any car? Your 10 year old Maserati might have had numerous faults rectified under the previous owner (when the car was 6 years old, for instance) leaving you with a well looked after car?I have bought my then 12 year old 997.1 on the basis that the previous owner who did 30k miles p.a. (!) threw a huge pile of cash at it. So far, in a year and 13k miles, my car didn't need anything other than a good service and some tires.
jakesmith said:
The problem with the engines is huge, a £10k rebuild on a £12k 3.4 Boxster S is a disaster for the owner. I doubt Hartech would exist as a bespoke engine rebuilder if it wasn't a big problem providing them with a constant stream of work and they are just one
You have a point there, but again there are so many 9x6 and 9x7 on the road. And because they are good cars and hold their value, you don't throw them away when the engine lets go but rather repair it. That is why Hartech has a business! If the rest of the car would be rubbish, nobody would spend £10k on a rebuild. Also seeing what it takes to rebuild a 6cyl Porsche engine with 2018 labour rates, I don't think £10k is outrageous.Of course in the perspective to the cars market value it's huge, but then again for £10k you get your beloved Porsche back with a brand new, improved engine that will last you some time! As an alternative you could lease a new BMW Z4 or a 718, but the depreciation alone over 2 years will be more than your engine rebuild. Each to their own, and I could and have found myself in both positions!
jakesmith said:
The way Porsche handled it was a corporate disgrace, they were incredibly slow and ineffective at changing the design, and offered little to no help to their enthusiast / loyal customers.
Is that really the case? Can't comment since I never bought a car directly from Porsche. I only now the fitted a new engine into mine while it was under extended warranty.But yes, they could have introduced the DI engines to the 997.1 cars. But they don't sound as good as the manifold injected ones
jakesmith said:
What do the competitor cars suffer from? R8 engine carbon build up costs under £1k to sort out and needs doing every 50,000 miles, Mag ride can fail as it can on the Maserati and costs £1k a corner but so it does on the 911 too. Aston Vantage... corrosion round the wing mirrors and door handles, and short clutch life from 30-50k miles. They aren't in the same ball park. Even the Maserati Variator issue that Maserati had the common sense to design out of the engine after certan chassis numbers, is only a £3k fix. Jag F Type I am not aware of any issues.
I don't know enough about those to comment, but they may very well be better.. Jag F is a bit of an unfair comparison because the design is much newer and takes a lot of parts from the whole Jag range. This one compares more to the 991 from a age pov. Thornaby said:
My mate has one of these. 05 reg, Carrera S with 85k on it. Does a fair few trips to the garage in it like. always seems to be a gasket or valve needing to be replaced. But its a 13 year old sports car. things will start to perish
I've got a 27 year old 944 turbo, had it 10 years. The only thing that's failed in my ownership is a fuel pressure regulator. Hartech did the head gasket about 15 years ago. Apart from that it's been routine servicing and tyres. Mechanically it's way better built than a 996.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff