RE: Mission E Cross Turismo to enter production
Discussion
Plug Life said:
PH Neanderthals – never fail to entertain.
Lol... https://www.autoevolution.com/news/diesel-cars-sti...You know what world I want to live in? One where you can have your EV, and I'll have my v8 whatever, and we both respect the other one's decision even if privately we obviously know our own car's the more fun one.
The sad thing about climate change in terms of cars isn't that there's anything wrong with EVs. Far from it. EVs have a lot to recommend about them, as people above have said. The sad thing is the loss of choice. Sure, you might think petrol cars are " a noisy, complicated and hugely inefficient mechanism that's derived from the steam engine, with a peaky torque curve that needs a primitive box of mechanical gears to make the thing work at all," but dammit, I happen to like them, and I think it's sad I'm going to end up being forced into something I might well like less. Same for a lot of other people like me.
What we as people who love cars, should all be arguing for is that everyone gets a car that suits their tastes. Even if we ourselves don't really like that car at all. More choice is better for everyone, and so loss of choice, even if it's a choice we wouldn't take ourselves, is worse for everyone.
The sad thing about climate change in terms of cars isn't that there's anything wrong with EVs. Far from it. EVs have a lot to recommend about them, as people above have said. The sad thing is the loss of choice. Sure, you might think petrol cars are " a noisy, complicated and hugely inefficient mechanism that's derived from the steam engine, with a peaky torque curve that needs a primitive box of mechanical gears to make the thing work at all," but dammit, I happen to like them, and I think it's sad I'm going to end up being forced into something I might well like less. Same for a lot of other people like me.
What we as people who love cars, should all be arguing for is that everyone gets a car that suits their tastes. Even if we ourselves don't really like that car at all. More choice is better for everyone, and so loss of choice, even if it's a choice we wouldn't take ourselves, is worse for everyone.
dunnoreally said:
Sure, you might think petrol cars are " a noisy, complicated and hugely inefficient mechanism that's derived from the steam engine, with a peaky torque curve that needs a primitive box of mechanical gears to make the thing work at all," but dammit, I happen to like them
Don't worry, I like them too. I keep some in my shed to play with now and then.But as daily transport? Come on. Great history, but no future whatsoever.
Don Colione said:
That's an excellently cherrypicked article. Very good.Here's another one: https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/electri...
I've got hundreds of those, BTW.
tr3a said:
But as daily transport? Come on. Great history, but no future whatsoever.
Why? There are still people who get about day to day by horse and cart. I personally know people who still commute via my local heritage steam railway. No future for the vast majority, sure. But if electric cars are so objectively better that they'll naturally be adopted anyway, why not let us deranged luddites enjoy getting on with our lives? Sounds like there'll barely be any of us anyway!Don Colione said:
Did you read it before you posted it?All it states is that you would have to drive a Diesel car for 30,000 miles before it reach the same CO2 production as a NIssan Leaf.
What about the NOx and other actual pollutants (as plants love the CO2)?
What happens after the 30,000 miles that pretty much every diesel in existence exceeds? How about when it inevitably does 5 times that amount? What about the air quality where each drives?
The arguments against EV are desperate, and it will continue as such.
dunnoreally said:
You know what world I want to live in? One where you can have your EV, and I'll have my v8 whatever, and we both respect the other one's decision even if privately we obviously know our own car's the more fun one.
The sad thing about climate change in terms of cars isn't that there's anything wrong with EVs. Far from it. EVs have a lot to recommend about them, as people above have said. The sad thing is the loss of choice. Sure, you might think petrol cars are " a noisy, complicated and hugely inefficient mechanism that's derived from the steam engine, with a peaky torque curve that needs a primitive box of mechanical gears to make the thing work at all," but dammit, I happen to like them, and I think it's sad I'm going to end up being forced into something I might well like less. Same for a lot of other people like me.
What we as people who love cars, should all be arguing for is that everyone gets a car that suits their tastes. Even if we ourselves don't really like that car at all. More choice is better for everyone, and so loss of choice, even if it's a choice we wouldn't take ourselves, is worse for everyone.
Enjoyed reading this pot - I agree with most of not all that is said here. I’ve just recently got my first ever Porsche and I love how the engine howls. I love it. I’m not a fan of a Tesla etc or equivalent yet. A dear friend of mine has one - I may not like it but I absolutely respect what he has and what he likes. The sad thing about climate change in terms of cars isn't that there's anything wrong with EVs. Far from it. EVs have a lot to recommend about them, as people above have said. The sad thing is the loss of choice. Sure, you might think petrol cars are " a noisy, complicated and hugely inefficient mechanism that's derived from the steam engine, with a peaky torque curve that needs a primitive box of mechanical gears to make the thing work at all," but dammit, I happen to like them, and I think it's sad I'm going to end up being forced into something I might well like less. Same for a lot of other people like me.
What we as people who love cars, should all be arguing for is that everyone gets a car that suits their tastes. Even if we ourselves don't really like that car at all. More choice is better for everyone, and so loss of choice, even if it's a choice we wouldn't take ourselves, is worse for everyone.
cj2013 said:
Did you read it before you posted it?
All it states is that you would have to drive a Diesel car for 30,000 miles before it reach the same CO2 production as a NIssan Leaf.
What about the NOx and other actual pollutants (as plants love the CO2)?
What happens after the 30,000 miles that pretty much every diesel in existence exceeds? How about when it inevitably does 5 times that amount? What about the air quality where each drives?
The arguments against EV are desperate, and it will continue as such.
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/10/bmw-rd-boss-says-ev-frenzy-irrational-defends-diesel/All it states is that you would have to drive a Diesel car for 30,000 miles before it reach the same CO2 production as a NIssan Leaf.
What about the NOx and other actual pollutants (as plants love the CO2)?
What happens after the 30,000 miles that pretty much every diesel in existence exceeds? How about when it inevitably does 5 times that amount? What about the air quality where each drives?
The arguments against EV are desperate, and it will continue as such.
https://insideevs.com/audi-e-tron-not-compete-tesl...
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/10/vw-boss-says-ger...
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/10/vw-boss-thinks-g...
Yes, it's better for the environment. Yes, it's better for inner city air quality. Yes, it'll be cheaper to power in the long run. Yes, they'll be fast.
But, by the Hammer of Thor, it's going to be boring. A huge part of the subjective appeal of performance cars is the noise they make. And an EV just can't match that. Never will.
Imagine going for a blast in your weekend toy, down some beautiful windy road out in the sticks. You've turned Radio 2 off so you can hear the roar of whatever engineering masterpiece you have under the bonnet while you connect apex to apex.
Now put some ear plugs in. No spine tingling sensation when it comes on cam or the turbo whistle becomes a whoosh. No audible cues for gear changes. No sodding gear changes ! All you've got is wind noise and tire roar.
The economical and moral arguments for EV's are all valid. They're just also debilitatingly boring. There's going to be no joy in going for a blast in your transportation appliance. Speed is only one element of enjoying driving.
Then there's issue of what they're going to be like at, say, the 100k mile point. For us poor people who can't afford to buy/rent/pcp a brand new car every other year, we're going to have to live with high miler's. So with no engine noise to distract us, every knock, rattle, buzz, squeak and fart is going to be louder and more annoying. I've driven a high mileage Tesla hire car in Norway. It's an awful experience. It's sounds like every single fastener used in the interior of the car is loose. Yeah, looking forward to that...
The electric car is coming. I know that. I also know that once it's here, and it's the only choice available, i'll more than likely lose all interest in cars. There'll be no emotional attachment to them whatsoever.
But, by the Hammer of Thor, it's going to be boring. A huge part of the subjective appeal of performance cars is the noise they make. And an EV just can't match that. Never will.
Imagine going for a blast in your weekend toy, down some beautiful windy road out in the sticks. You've turned Radio 2 off so you can hear the roar of whatever engineering masterpiece you have under the bonnet while you connect apex to apex.
Now put some ear plugs in. No spine tingling sensation when it comes on cam or the turbo whistle becomes a whoosh. No audible cues for gear changes. No sodding gear changes ! All you've got is wind noise and tire roar.
The economical and moral arguments for EV's are all valid. They're just also debilitatingly boring. There's going to be no joy in going for a blast in your transportation appliance. Speed is only one element of enjoying driving.
Then there's issue of what they're going to be like at, say, the 100k mile point. For us poor people who can't afford to buy/rent/pcp a brand new car every other year, we're going to have to live with high miler's. So with no engine noise to distract us, every knock, rattle, buzz, squeak and fart is going to be louder and more annoying. I've driven a high mileage Tesla hire car in Norway. It's an awful experience. It's sounds like every single fastener used in the interior of the car is loose. Yeah, looking forward to that...
The electric car is coming. I know that. I also know that once it's here, and it's the only choice available, i'll more than likely lose all interest in cars. There'll be no emotional attachment to them whatsoever.
Quickben said:
Yes, it's better for the environment. Yes, it's better for inner city air quality. Yes, it'll be cheaper to power in the long run. Yes, they'll be fast.
But, by the Hammer of Thor, it's going to be boring. A huge part of the subjective appeal of performance cars is the noise they make. And an EV just can't match that. Never will.
Imagine going for a blast in your weekend toy, down some beautiful windy road out in the sticks. You've turned Radio 2 off so you can hear the roar of whatever engineering masterpiece you have under the bonnet while you connect apex to apex.
Now put some ear plugs in. No spine tingling sensation when it comes on cam or the turbo whistle becomes a whoosh. No audible cues for gear changes. No sodding gear changes ! All you've got is wind noise and tire roar.
The economical and moral arguments for EV's are all valid. They're just also debilitatingly boring. There's going to be no joy in going for a blast in your transportation appliance. Speed is only one element of enjoying driving.
Then there's issue of what they're going to be like at, say, the 100k mile point. For us poor people who can't afford to buy/rent/pcp a brand new car every other year, we're going to have to live with high miler's. So with no engine noise to distract us, every knock, rattle, buzz, squeak and fart is going to be louder and more annoying. I've driven a high mileage Tesla hire car in Norway. It's an awful experience. It's sounds like every single fastener used in the interior of the car is loose. Yeah, looking forward to that...
The electric car is coming. I know that. I also know that once it's here, and it's the only choice available, i'll more than likely lose all interest in cars. There'll be no emotional attachment to them whatsoever.
Oh well... Maybe find something else that interests you?But, by the Hammer of Thor, it's going to be boring. A huge part of the subjective appeal of performance cars is the noise they make. And an EV just can't match that. Never will.
Imagine going for a blast in your weekend toy, down some beautiful windy road out in the sticks. You've turned Radio 2 off so you can hear the roar of whatever engineering masterpiece you have under the bonnet while you connect apex to apex.
Now put some ear plugs in. No spine tingling sensation when it comes on cam or the turbo whistle becomes a whoosh. No audible cues for gear changes. No sodding gear changes ! All you've got is wind noise and tire roar.
The economical and moral arguments for EV's are all valid. They're just also debilitatingly boring. There's going to be no joy in going for a blast in your transportation appliance. Speed is only one element of enjoying driving.
Then there's issue of what they're going to be like at, say, the 100k mile point. For us poor people who can't afford to buy/rent/pcp a brand new car every other year, we're going to have to live with high miler's. So with no engine noise to distract us, every knock, rattle, buzz, squeak and fart is going to be louder and more annoying. I've driven a high mileage Tesla hire car in Norway. It's an awful experience. It's sounds like every single fastener used in the interior of the car is loose. Yeah, looking forward to that...
The electric car is coming. I know that. I also know that once it's here, and it's the only choice available, i'll more than likely lose all interest in cars. There'll be no emotional attachment to them whatsoever.
The "refuelling" models for EVs and IC cars are completely different.
In an IC car, you drive it until it needs fuel, then you stop at a convenient point and refuel it to 100%
An EV would work much more like your mobile phone. You charge it overnight, and start each day at 100%, then if you need a top up, you'd plug in and recharge for long enough to get you home, completing the recharging process when you get back to the house. But the point is, you'd start each day with 100% range in a way that you just don't in an IC car. There is going to need to be serious investment in charging infrastructure though once mass adoption starts to gather pace. Four charge points at a motorway services in use for, say half an hour at at time, just isn't going to cut it.
I accept that some people drive long distances regularly, but for the vast majority of drivers, you could probably count on one hand the number of times in a year that a 200+ mile range EV would need to be topped up at all during the day.
EVs that have the performance and range I'd want are well out of my price range at the moment, but they'll come down in price over the next 10 years or so. It's coming, whether we like it or not, so why not embrace it?
In an IC car, you drive it until it needs fuel, then you stop at a convenient point and refuel it to 100%
An EV would work much more like your mobile phone. You charge it overnight, and start each day at 100%, then if you need a top up, you'd plug in and recharge for long enough to get you home, completing the recharging process when you get back to the house. But the point is, you'd start each day with 100% range in a way that you just don't in an IC car. There is going to need to be serious investment in charging infrastructure though once mass adoption starts to gather pace. Four charge points at a motorway services in use for, say half an hour at at time, just isn't going to cut it.
I accept that some people drive long distances regularly, but for the vast majority of drivers, you could probably count on one hand the number of times in a year that a 200+ mile range EV would need to be topped up at all during the day.
EVs that have the performance and range I'd want are well out of my price range at the moment, but they'll come down in price over the next 10 years or so. It's coming, whether we like it or not, so why not embrace it?
Edited by Limpet on Saturday 20th October 11:40
Edited by Limpet on Saturday 20th October 11:41
unsprung said:
I don't disagree
and for best effect, this can be spoken in a continuous statement with nary a breath between sentences
like the second woman, here:
https://youtu.be/DS1YYtQ_LLY
Limpet said:
EVs that have the performance and range I'd want are well out of my price range at the moment, but they'll come down in price over the next 10 years or so.
There are strong indications that price parity will take much less than a decade. Five to seven years is what most car maker strategists think. After that, fossil fuelled cars won't be able to compete and will fade away quickly.Limpet said:
It's coming, whether we like it or not, so why not embrace it?
Tell that to the people who habitually fight the only constant we have: change.Limpet said:
The "refuelling" models for EVs and IC cars are completely different.
In an IC car, you drive it until it needs fuel, then you stop at a convenient point and refuel it to 100%
An EV would work much more like your mobile phone. You charge it overnight, and start each day at 100%, then if you need a top up, you'd plug in and recharge for long enough to get you home, completing the recharging process when you get back to the house. But the point is, you'd start each day with 100% range in a way that you just don't in an IC car. There is going to need to be serious investment in charging infrastructure though once mass adoption starts to gather pace. Four charge points at a motorway services in use for, say half an hour at at time, just isn't going to cut it.
I accept that some people drive long distances regularly, but for the vast majority of drivers, you could probably count on one hand the number of times in a year that a 200+ mile range EV would need to be topped up at all during the day.
EVs that have the performance and range I'd want are well out of my price range at the moment, but they'll come down in price over the next 10 years or so. It's coming, whether we like it or not, so why not embrace it?
Because there's nothing to embrace. What we'll end up with is a slightly cheaper to run, slightly better for the environment version of exactly what we have now, just without the character and emotive attraction.In an IC car, you drive it until it needs fuel, then you stop at a convenient point and refuel it to 100%
An EV would work much more like your mobile phone. You charge it overnight, and start each day at 100%, then if you need a top up, you'd plug in and recharge for long enough to get you home, completing the recharging process when you get back to the house. But the point is, you'd start each day with 100% range in a way that you just don't in an IC car. There is going to need to be serious investment in charging infrastructure though once mass adoption starts to gather pace. Four charge points at a motorway services in use for, say half an hour at at time, just isn't going to cut it.
I accept that some people drive long distances regularly, but for the vast majority of drivers, you could probably count on one hand the number of times in a year that a 200+ mile range EV would need to be topped up at all during the day.
EVs that have the performance and range I'd want are well out of my price range at the moment, but they'll come down in price over the next 10 years or so. It's coming, whether we like it or not, so why not embrace it?
It's basically vegan motoring. Give me strength.
Edited by Quickben on Saturday 20th October 15:06
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