RE: Geely gearing up for Lotus production in China

[kambites]

loveice said:

Btw, all your iPhones, iPads and similar high end products are produced in China. You get what you pay for. If you are paying nearly £1000 for a phone, of cause you will get the best quality one, even one from China. However, if you are looking for something cheap, then as long as there's a market for those cheap low quality products, China or any other developing countries would be willing to make them for you (as long as there's enough profit margin).

The Macbook I'm on now says "assembled in China" on the bottom.

[skidskid]

Chainsaw Rebuild said:

telecat said:

Making anything in China is asking for trouble especially if the QC engineers aren't from Europe/ USA/Japan/Korea. I just see it as killing the brand and I will not be going near a "Lotus" built in China.

I feel similarly; some of the Chinese motorbikes I have seen are so poor. However I stand ready to be corrected when the cars come out. Also there is the issue of the Chinese ripping off designs and producing clones....

The reason the build quality is bad historically is because the market didnt demand high quality stuff, they demanded cheap bikes/cars that anyone could fix with basic tools etc. China (and other low cost countries like India etc) make lots of high quality parts for high end cars/engines/bikes. They can produce really high quality parts when needed and are learning fast.

As soon as China decides to make things to a high quality for European manufacturers should be worried.

[jzakariya]

You can almost see the Brexit crowd in here.
The comment about Chinese QC vs European QC was especially funny.

[telecat]

jzakariya said:

You can almost see the Brexit crowd in here.
The comment about Chinese QC vs European QC was especially funny.

Yeah sure, they can't get their High Speed Rail network safe and they have had well documented problems with Bridge and Building construction. Dealing with Chinese companies is also a minefield. Having been at the end of their business practices and the problems now surfacing with Huawei I aren't surprised that investment in southern Asia is moving to other countries in the area. Trust is something the Chinese do not seem to value.

[kambites]

Because Western countries never have train crashes or bridge collapses?

It's not like Hethel set a particularly high benchmark for them to beat in terms of assembly quality.

Edited by kambites on Friday 18th January 10:53

[telecat]

kambites said:

Because Western countries never have train crashes or bridge collapses?

When the infrastructure is as "new" as the Chinese ones are? Bad construction. Corrupt supply of inappropriate materials, list could go on. Many sections of their HS railway are limited to 70KM/h despite being designed for over 200KM/h. They have a throw away society. Unfortunately many Chinese include lives in that.

[kambites]

telecat said:

When the infrastructure is as "new" as the Chinese ones are? Bad construction.

A bridge recently fell down in the US a couple of days after completion and killed several people who were driving under it at the time...

[otolith]

rockin said:

Wasn't this supposed to be one of those "few niche brands"?

Someone was lecturing me on here the other day about the apparently crucial distinction between "commercial success" and "brand integrity"....

The best hope is that wider development of the brand will produce the real cash money needed to develop some new, world class sports cars - and hopefully with ongoing activity/employment at Hethel.

You have to differentiate between what makes business sense for the owners and what is good news for the people who like the kind of products they build. If they do go mainstream with their sports car product line that's probably great news for their employees and shareholders and one more badge to choose from for people who don't care about anything else, but it's one distinctive choice fewer for people who care how their cars drive.

The ideal, from the point of view of someone who likes their cars, would be for them to increase their profits with higher volumes of SUVs or whatever and to invest in new sports cars which retain the attributes which people who get Lotus enjoy and maintain the image that sells the rebadged XC40s or whatever.

I don't really do brand loyalty, so if they do stop building the type of cars I like, good luck to them, but I don't really care whether they go under or not. If I want a mainstream sports car I can get a Z4, Supra, TT, 718, SLC, MX-5, GT86, F-type, etc, that market is well covered over a whole range of price and performance points.

[Frimley111R]

filski666 said:

Hethel?

Geely are ploughing loads of money into a design studio in Coventry - I don't know what project is being done there but I am guessing that is the Lotus project, not a Geely or Volvo.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/lotus-reveals-plans-overhauled-hethel-hq

[Tired]

telecat said:

Yeah sure, they can't get their High Speed Rail network safe and they have had well documented problems with Bridge and Building construction. Dealing with Chinese companies is also a minefield. Having been at the end of their business practices and the problems now surfacing with Huawei I aren't surprised that investment in southern Asia is moving to other countries in the area. Trust is something the Chinese do not seem to value.

This seems like an odd point to lead with. Chinese high speed rail network isn't perfect. Compared to the UKs, which is non-existant.

[telecat]

As a HiFi User I'd also point to the Kit they produce even under a Good Name. Users of Audiolab kit find the "new" China Production isn't as good as the "old" UK. Many Chinese Valve Amps aren't fit for purpose either. Many have valves that light up but are not connected to any audio circuit. You want to risk your neck that's your choice. My recommendation goes elsewhere.

[Sport220]

Very misleading article. The true Lotus will still be built in Hethel. Why would they be investing in there otherwise?

Quoting autocar:

The opening of the Chinese factory is not thought to threaten UK jobs. As part of Geely’s plan, Lotus SUVs are set to be built in China while production of sports models, such as the Elise and Exige, will remain at Hethel.

A company spokesperson said: “Lotus and our shareholders are fully committed to manufacturing at Hethel for Lotus sports cars and expanding our HQ here in Norfolk with investment in the site... and recruitment of staff.”

Geely is keen to leverage Lotus’ history, with company boss Li Shufu stating that he sees “no reason to move fifty years of combined experience to China; let them do what they do best in Britain”.

[Rick101]

jzakariya said:

You can almost see the Brexit crowd in here.
The comment about Chinese QC vs European QC was especially funny.

Agreed.

There was a little news article in the last few days about how the Chinese are now able to grow seeds on the moon.

I won't bother going into what our country is preoccupied with at present.
We can and do, create some fantastic stuff but there is often a islander mentality and a belief that those outside have nothing to offer.

[smig12345]

dunnoreally said:

DanielSan said:

Bentley, Rolls Royce and Aston just as an example wouldn't be the success they are now if they were still British owned sadly. History sort of shows that.

Aston's a public company floated on the London Stock Exchange and headquartered in the UK. I'd say that makes them pretty British (although really it depends exactly who the shareholders are). Also, obviously, there's a bunch of smaller players. Morgan, Westfield, Ariel, Ginetta, various racing car companies and one or two of the old kit car brigade who're still soldiering on...

Personally, this kind of thing has never bothered me all that much but, for those of us who do worry about it, things could certainly be worse.

It would be nice to have even one of our own car manufacturers in our own hands, and not a tiny insignificant one on the World stage like Morgan, Ginetta, etc either, or a one which uses someone elses engines. Imagine if that is all France or japan or Germany had. They certainly wouldn't say that wouldn't bother them. We in Britain seem to have literally zero national pride.

[smig12345]

Europa1 said:

smig12345 said:

Good news in some ways but I wish we still had at least one of our car manufacturers in our own hands.

Lotus hasn't been "in our own hands" for many years.

When did I say it was?

Edited by smig12345 on Friday 18th January 16:58

[Alex P]

Frimley111R said:

Agree with PH, no-one cares where cars are built these days because it's not important with the exception of a very very few niche brands

Speak for oneself. I for one do care where a car (or anything else for that matter) is made and for a large number of reasons including environmental impact of globalisation, distribution of wealth and job security/bargaining power of those (often highly skilled people) in work producing product.

I fully understand why Lotus would set up a factory in China to access the Chinese market - whether you like it not Trump has a point on import tariffs and Chinese protectionism. However, as anybody who has had the faintest interest in manufacturing knows, under the last 25 or so years since Thatcher, the number of manufacturing jobs in the UK declined almost as much as they did under the Thacther years. This is for a number of reasons but relocation of production to Eastern Europe and The Far East has been a major driver of this. Anyone who knows anything about UK HI Fi industry will be aware of the design here/build there model that has been adopted by a large number of 'British brands' in the past 15/20 years.

To think that it does not matter where things are made is misguided - this is one reason why large parts of former industrial Britain have had the life sucked out of them. The same is true in other western economies. However this is all OK because we get our items slightly cheaper than we would have done had things been made in the West. The thing is, thinking things like this don't matter and not caring where things come from is one reason why you get things like Brexit and Trump.

Edited by Alex P on Friday 18th January 17:24

[Jimmy Recard]

smig12345 said:

It would be nice to have even one of our own car manufacturers in our own hands, and not a tiny insignificant one on the World stage like Morgan, Ginetta, etc either, or a one which uses someone elses engines. Imagine if that is all France or japan or Germany had. They certainly wouldn't say that wouldn't bother them. We in Britain seem to have literally zero national pride.

How does ownership of car companies affect national pride?

[Frimley111R]

Alex P said:

Frimley111R said:

Agree with PH, no-one cares where cars are built these days because it's not important with the exception of a very very few niche brands

Speak for oneself. I for one do care where a car (or anything else for that matter) is made and for a large number of reasons including environmental impact of globalisation, distribution of wealth and job security/bargaining power of those (often highly skilled people) in work producing product.

I fully understand why Lotus would set up a factory in China to access the Chinese market - whether you like it not Trump has a point on import tariffs and Chinese protectionism. However, as anybody who has had the faintest interest in manufacturing knows, under the last 25 or so years since Thatcher, the number of manufacturing jobs in the UK declined almost as much as they did under the Thacther years. This is for a number of reasons but relocation of production to Eastern Europe and The Far East has been a major driver of this. Anyone who knows anything about UK HI Fi industry will be aware of the design here/build there model that has been adopted by a large number of 'British brands' in the past 15/20 years.

To think that it does not matter where things are made is misguided - this is one reason why large parts of former industrial Britain have had the life sucked out of them. The same is true in other western economies. However this is all OK because we get our items slightly cheaper than we would have done had things been made in the West. The thing is, thinking things like this don't matter and not caring where things come from is one reason why you get things like Brexit and Trump.

Edited by Alex P on Friday 18th January 17:24

I tihnk you missed my point. People mostly have no clue or / and care little where something is made. That's fact. Of course it would be lovely to think everything is made here but that's just unrealistic.

However, I am not saying that seeing the life sucked out of our UK factories etc is a good thing. Clearly it isn't and no-one wants that to happen but in between customers and people who want it to stay are the business owners themselves who are there to make money and they know that so few people care where cars and other things are made that they can make them somewhere else for less.

[rodericb]

Rick101 said:

Agreed.

There was a little news article in the last few days about how the Chinese are now able to grow seeds on the moon.

I won't bother going into what our country is preoccupied with at present.
We can and do, create some fantastic stuff but there is often a islander mentality and a belief that those outside have nothing to offer.

A trap to fall into, and which I do see here on Piston Heads, is taking the polar opposite perspective and going all hot-giggety over China doing whatever as England is full of lazy halfwits who deserve all they get.

[lord trumpton]

Boggy said:

Ok,

The whole point of owning a Lotus is that they are made in England !

FFS! I've owned 11 so I think I speak with some authority here. I wouldn't buy a Lotus if it was made anywhere else and I won't wish them luck as I do not agree with it.

Boggy

Bet you're a hard brexit supporter too?