RE: WRC to require electrified cars from 2022
Discussion
I've loved WRC since forever. The biggest problem it suffers is lack of mainstream exposure. Moving to hybrids will not solve that particular problem. What it may do though is advance the hybrid or EV tech... And that can only be a good thing.
You can read loads of old Motorsport articles (and some modern ones too) decrying aero, turbochargers or non manual gearboxes... If we listened to those people I think the world would be different... Not worse... Not better... Different.
You can read loads of old Motorsport articles (and some modern ones too) decrying aero, turbochargers or non manual gearboxes... If we listened to those people I think the world would be different... Not worse... Not better... Different.
if we have to go down the green route for WRC then my view is that there should be an overall target CO2 figure applied to rally cars across the duration of the rally. I.e. from start ramp to finish ramp. That way you could still run high power turbo petrol engines in the stages, and use battery power for some or all of the road sections. If you have to achieve an average CO2 figure then the technology could be about how efficient you make your petrol engine, so that you don't have to always use battery on the road section, or that you can save a bit of battery for some extra boostin on the stages if you have already achieved the target.
I like the idea of a replaceable battery, they could remove and forget to replace it on race day to save weight 
Forcing efficiency on motorsport makes no sense, you would do better telling them to avoid hard acceleration.
The spectators and film crew cause more emissions so why not give the race teams the option then leave it be while there are still people bothering to watch.
Forcing efficiency on motorsport makes no sense, you would do better telling them to avoid hard acceleration.
The spectators and film crew cause more emissions so why not give the race teams the option then leave it be while there are still people bothering to watch.
noble12345 said:
Because white males having fun, I wont be watching that cuck beta crap 
If they want to save the world and slow down the natural warming of the Earth, why dont they kill most Elephants? They destroy billions of trees leading to grassland/desert, encouraging wilderbeast/cows the biggest polluters. And obv. stop people breeding like rats!
But no, a few cars having fun.
I'm all for a bit of outside-the-box thinking but I'd need some convincing to believe that elephants destroy 'billions' of trees If they want to save the world and slow down the natural warming of the Earth, why dont they kill most Elephants? They destroy billions of trees leading to grassland/desert, encouraging wilderbeast/cows the biggest polluters. And obv. stop people breeding like rats!
But no, a few cars having fun.
Edited by noble12345 on Wednesday 30th January 16:51
RyanTank said:
robsprocket said:
Good luck to anyone trapped in their car after a big off miles into a stage with limited fire fighting support if the lithium batteries catch fire.
All the firefighting equipment in the cars is designed to allow the occupants to escape, simply inst sufficient to extinguish a whole car fire. But your point is valid and if they manage it in WEC/Le Mans then it should be manageable in a rally car, imagine some sort of containment cell should work.I'm undecided if its a good thing for WRC - I'm sure they can be spectacular, and IF (it is a big IF) it attracts more manufacturers thats a good thing. But it could just as easily push the costs even higher than they currently are, and the teams are already complaining about cost.
If they didn't have so many fancy carbon fibre aero appendages to destroy each rally it would help reduce cost, and have the added marketing benefit of looking a lot more like a car you can actually buy.
Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 31st January 05:05
It seems that in all walks of life these days people in positions of power seek to 'revolutionize' rather than 'allow to evolve naturally'. I'm thinking here of how the original Audi Quattro entered rallying at the beginning of the 1980's.
Back then, as many rally fans will recall, 4WD wasn't permitted in international rallying until Audi asked the FIA if an exception could be made for their car.The other manufacturers raised no objections, thinking that the concept wouldn't fly. As we all know the concept DID fly and the Quattro did 'revolutionize' the sport and became a spectacular attraction which helped to kick-start the Group B era.
BUT- just supposing the 4WD concept hadn't worked out for Audi in the way Ford's 4WD 3-litre Capris hadn't worked out in rallycross back in the very early 1970's? Had that been the case the Quattro would have just 'withered on the vine' and died - a technological cul-de-sac which proved fruitless.
Okay, so now to Hybrid/EV rally cars. We're supposedly having to embrace the future so why doesn't Todt simply open up the WRC to allow experimental future tech to run alongside existing ICE-powered rally cars on the world stage? It may encourage manufacturers to explore their respective concepts running alongside the existing format to assess them from a merit-based POV. If they work and offer a way forward (as with the UR-quattro) then fine but if they don't, well so be it - as previously stated, a technological cul-de-sac which had to be explored in the current climate.
Please, though, don't arbitrarily force such a formula onto the world rally scene until it proves itself as a naturally-evolutionary step.
Personally, I wouldn't want it but that's not the point here. Me, I still prefer 1970's rallying where it was all N/A, RWD saloon cars which, thanks to N/A made as much noise from induction as from exhaust and which 'suffered' from NOT being able to get all their power onto the road thus providing immense spectacle while trying to! But that's just me...
Back then, as many rally fans will recall, 4WD wasn't permitted in international rallying until Audi asked the FIA if an exception could be made for their car.The other manufacturers raised no objections, thinking that the concept wouldn't fly. As we all know the concept DID fly and the Quattro did 'revolutionize' the sport and became a spectacular attraction which helped to kick-start the Group B era.
BUT- just supposing the 4WD concept hadn't worked out for Audi in the way Ford's 4WD 3-litre Capris hadn't worked out in rallycross back in the very early 1970's? Had that been the case the Quattro would have just 'withered on the vine' and died - a technological cul-de-sac which proved fruitless.
Okay, so now to Hybrid/EV rally cars. We're supposedly having to embrace the future so why doesn't Todt simply open up the WRC to allow experimental future tech to run alongside existing ICE-powered rally cars on the world stage? It may encourage manufacturers to explore their respective concepts running alongside the existing format to assess them from a merit-based POV. If they work and offer a way forward (as with the UR-quattro) then fine but if they don't, well so be it - as previously stated, a technological cul-de-sac which had to be explored in the current climate.
Please, though, don't arbitrarily force such a formula onto the world rally scene until it proves itself as a naturally-evolutionary step.
Personally, I wouldn't want it but that's not the point here. Me, I still prefer 1970's rallying where it was all N/A, RWD saloon cars which, thanks to N/A made as much noise from induction as from exhaust and which 'suffered' from NOT being able to get all their power onto the road thus providing immense spectacle while trying to! But that's just me...
DaveTheRave87 said:
RobDickinson said:
Honestly. Don't require it, allow for it.
When electric /hybrid is a better solution teams will use it.
A bit like what's happening at the Pike's Peak Hillclimb.When electric /hybrid is a better solution teams will use it.
I'm all for this.
At some point all this climate scare mongering will have to stop.
I mean how many times can they get away with saying "only 10 years to save the planet" ?
EVs are pure and simple boring as feck. Motorsport fans are not asking for them, there is little to no interest in them, the flagship motorsport tree-hugging project of Formula E is a joke and now they think that the fans want more EV milk float competition?
The problem is obviously governments being lobbied constantly by greenies with any opposition to their lobbying being met with "denier" cards, all backed up by similarly pressured media who get ridiculed if they don't toe the line.
What can we do as fans? Simply turn off the TV and/or migrate over to another ICE motorsport. But I think most importantly is to oppose any movements to phase out ICE cars, both in motorsport and for private use on public roads.
I mean how many times can they get away with saying "only 10 years to save the planet" ?
EVs are pure and simple boring as feck. Motorsport fans are not asking for them, there is little to no interest in them, the flagship motorsport tree-hugging project of Formula E is a joke and now they think that the fans want more EV milk float competition?
The problem is obviously governments being lobbied constantly by greenies with any opposition to their lobbying being met with "denier" cards, all backed up by similarly pressured media who get ridiculed if they don't toe the line.
What can we do as fans? Simply turn off the TV and/or migrate over to another ICE motorsport. But I think most importantly is to oppose any movements to phase out ICE cars, both in motorsport and for private use on public roads.
ZX10R NIN said:
WRC is suffering for popularity right now, for me what they need are cars that actually look similar to what you see in the showroom, hell it just needs to be a better spectacle what it doesn't need is more complication.
Have you watched it lately? It's pretty spectacular as it is...RyanTank said:
Didn't see any of the recent Monte Carlo then?
This. Most of those who bash rallying obviously haven't watched it in years. It's fantastic at the moment.RobDickinson said:
Charging can be done via generators if needed,.
Cars can have swappable battery packs, it's been done before.
These teams will have access to much better batteries than what would go into road cars like all of the other parts they use.
The whole idea of charging via generators is just insane. It makes a mockery of the idea of being green, surely?Cars can have swappable battery packs, it's been done before.
These teams will have access to much better batteries than what would go into road cars like all of the other parts they use.
300bhp/ton said:
As if modern rallying didn’t suck enough already. It really is time for the old people at the FIA to stand down.
How does it suck? Four different cars, all really closely matched, all very loud, very wild looking and very very fast, a six-time champion battling against a nine-time champion and some of the fastest up-and-comings we've seen for years. The last two years of the WRC have been the best seasons for YEARS and 2019 is shaping up to be even better with a few twists now thrown in thanks to driver moves. What's not to like?kudosdude said:
I've loved WRC since forever. The biggest problem it suffers is lack of mainstream exposure. Moving to hybrids will not solve that particular problem. What it may do though is advance the hybrid or EV tech... And that can only be a good thing.
You can read loads of old Motorsport articles (and some modern ones too) decrying aero, turbochargers or non manual gearboxes... If we listened to those people I think the world would be different... Not worse... Not better... Different.
Exactly this. People decry the WRC for being unpopular, but this is almost solely down to poor promotion. There is not enough investment. All Live is a fantastic idea, but to make it a pay service was a massive mistake. It should have come with heavy discounts at least, or a slightly restricted free version that enticed people to join the full version. The lack of TV and media coverage is a real problem. The sport is spectacular, probably more so than any other motorsport, due to the locations and setting, never mind the action. It just needs to be properly promoted. No one wants to invest in it, because it's more difficult to cover than circuit stuff and it also suffers from the sanitisation that all motorsport suffers from - it's a PR machine. There are some great personalities in there, but they are often hidden due to the brands wanting to control their behaviour to the Nth degree.You can read loads of old Motorsport articles (and some modern ones too) decrying aero, turbochargers or non manual gearboxes... If we listened to those people I think the world would be different... Not worse... Not better... Different.
300bhp/ton said:
As if modern rallying didn’t suck enough already. It really is time for the old people at the FIA to stand down.
It’s also time for old people to move on from groupB.I went to the Monte last weekend, it was spectacular and completely and utterly rammed. WRC is massively popular abroad, its just that the UK has a load of rose tinted idiots that can’t move on from the past.
Turbotechnic said:
Modern motorsport is rapidly going down the pan thanks to the wonders of technology.
I respectfully suggest that all motorsport is "going down the pan" because it is to a large degree no longer relevant to most people!Here's a quick opinion piece i wrote a while back:
Motorsport really came of age to most people in the immediate post war years, when the population was looking for something exciting to replace the war efforts during which our young hero's had risked their necks thrashing those dastardly Huns. Motorsports in the 1950 and 1960s was raw, dangerous and addictive, at a time where the average persons life was dull boring and frankly, hard (rationing existed until the mid 50's). Other leisure activities or interests were at the time, pretty dull by comparison (you could read a book, watch one or two channels of B&W telly) do a puzzle or similar. In conjunction, the blossoming of private car ownership as the country slowly recovered it's financial clout mean't motorsport was a ray of welcome sunshine on the "freedoms of the open road" a physical Shangri La to a population yearning to achieve a real sense of self worth after the long oppressive days of the 19040's and 50's.
Car manufacturers without any other significant marketing outlet for their products grasped motorsport as a sales avenue. The famous "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" quote harks from a time when winning a race really did increase that models sales the next week. As incomes were low and people had a low disposable income, watching motorsport became the best option. All the people watching would much rather be driving, but very few could afford to do so. Motorsport was to some degree a dummy in the mouth of the watchers, it sated them a small amount of much needed satisfaction when there was nothing else to suck on.
Fast forwards some 60 years and the world is a very different place.
Our roads are crowded, speed limited and regulated so that the Freedoms of the open road are now really a long distant memory. Anyone can drive anywhere they like, anytime for a very low cost, it's simply not something that excites us anymore. Unlike people born in the 1920's and 30's, who probably grew up and lived within a few short miles of where they were born, we now take it completely for granted that we have a wide freedom of movement in our lives and work. When we travel now we want the shortest, lease effort option in most cases. There is a revival of the "touring holiday" where the journey itself is the event rather than the destination, but for most people, they want to get somewhere quickly, efficiently and with the least amount of effort.
This change in our attitudes is seen in particular, effectively hard coded into the very sport of rallying , which started out as events as "journeys", where actually completing the course was an achievement, but gradually as cars became more capable and reliable, the additional drama of "racing against the clock" was introduced. As speeds climbed and safety became a real concern, Stage rallies were born, where most of the route was liaison or navigational stages, linked by a few "no limits" competition stages. These shorter high speed stages could be more rigorously controlled and martialled, meaning a greater level of safety (for competitors and spectators alike). That very necessary trade-off started the erosion of absolute freedom in rallying, a process that has lead to the very tightly regulated and controlled sport that we see today.
Today, most people have a myriad other physical activities they do, and crucially they can afford to do and the virtual world is ever increasing in it's capabilities. For young kids to day "watching" a race or rally is actually pretty boring. It's far better to actually take part and race themselves, which thanks to multiplayer online games, they now can (in ever increasing fidelity). Similarly, the car you or i drive on the road has really become so capable and refined that racing them is to a large degree completely irrelevant.
Motorsport today has to compete itself against demands on our time from increasingly capable competitors, a race that it will, imo, inevitable loose. Why would you want to watch someone else do something, however exciting when you could be either doing it yourself, or doing something of equivalent or more interest. And to add to it's woes, our world is currently embroiled in a battle between Capitalism and Conservation. Probably the greatest challenge us Humans will ever experience will be to try to work out the compromise between improving ourselves through further work and knowledge and protecting our environment.
And here motorsport really does have a significant problem. If you have no interest in say F1, then "polluting the planet" so that some rich kids can drive round in circles for 2 hours seems to be a compromise that is easy to make, you simply stop it. That pressure is what is forcing motorsport to review its vows and to try to encompass the latest environmental concerns, despite in real terms it being both irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and generally at a direct deficit to the excitement and passion so integral in the sport itself.
The hard fact, imo, is that the unavoidable dichotomy with which we are faced is that motorsport must evolve to survive, but this very evolution lays the foundation of it's eventual irrelevance......
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 31st January 13:11
I'm not in favour of this direction of "development", I'm progressive enough to appreciate that there's an inevitable need to move away from fossil fuel dependency.
What I am fascinated to know more about, is how this could work for rallying, with respect to the daily mileage that the cars cover, what the torque could do to the tyres as they're carved into loose, and most importantly how they can engineer a safe solution which creates no danger for crew, public, or environment when it's blasted into a tree at 100mph.
What I am fascinated to know more about, is how this could work for rallying, with respect to the daily mileage that the cars cover, what the torque could do to the tyres as they're carved into loose, and most importantly how they can engineer a safe solution which creates no danger for crew, public, or environment when it's blasted into a tree at 100mph.
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