mandatory speed limiters to be fitted from 2022?
Discussion
vonhosen said:
Max_Torque said:
There is a very real demonstration of an inappropriate speed limit near me.
A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
So in both cases they were driving at the maximum legally permissible speed in both the 20's & the 30's?A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
Blakewater said:
vonhosen said:
Max_Torque said:
There is a very real demonstration of an inappropriate speed limit near me.
A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
So in both cases they were driving at the maximum legally permissible speed in both the 20's & the 30's?A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
How can you know they weren't looking at or assessing the movements of other vehicles/pedestrians ahead?
Why, because they wouldn't be bullied by the van driver into exceeding the speed limit?
Why do you assume that it is impossible for somebody to stick to the speed limit as well as still be aware of their surroundings?
vonhosen said:
Blakewater said:
vonhosen said:
Max_Torque said:
There is a very real demonstration of an inappropriate speed limit near me.
A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
So in both cases they were driving at the maximum legally permissible speed in both the 20's & the 30's?A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
How can you know they weren't looking at or assessing the movements of other vehicles/pedestrians ahead?
Why, because they wouldn't be bullied by the van driver into exceeding the speed limit?
Why do you assume that it is impossible for somebody to stick to the speed limit as well as still be aware of their surroundings?
Max_Torque said:
vonhosen said:
Blakewater said:
vonhosen said:
Max_Torque said:
There is a very real demonstration of an inappropriate speed limit near me.
A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
So in both cases they were driving at the maximum legally permissible speed in both the 20's & the 30's?A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
How can you know they weren't looking at or assessing the movements of other vehicles/pedestrians ahead?
Why, because they wouldn't be bullied by the van driver into exceeding the speed limit?
Why do you assume that it is impossible for somebody to stick to the speed limit as well as still be aware of their surroundings?
Max_Torque said:
vonhosen said:
Blakewater said:
vonhosen said:
Max_Torque said:
There is a very real demonstration of an inappropriate speed limit near me.
A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
So in both cases they were driving at the maximum legally permissible speed in both the 20's & the 30's?A road that has been, sensibly 40 mph since i 've driven it (going back to 1996) has been made "temporarily" 20 mph due to surface defects. The change is agggression, bunching, tailgating and conflict is incredible. Whereas most people sat at say 35 to 45, now most people sit at about 35, but a few "upholders of the law" sit at 20.00000 mph to make some point or other, and good god, you should see the result. The other day the driver of the van in front, who was abouto, oh, 3mm off the bumper of the "i'm doing 20 because the sign says so" idiot, eventually got so frustrated, they actually over took, into oncomming traffic, by basically making a third lane, straddling the white line and just pushing through, scattering cars all over! I've never seen so much conflict on this road in 25 years of driving it.
And the comedy bit, is having done 20 down a dead straiht road, with perfect visibility and sightlines, no houses directly on it, and large clear mown verges meaning nobody can hide and jump out at you, then you turn off, into a tiny, twistly, narrow, poorly sighted residential road, with cars, houses and everything and here, the "i'm going to do the speed limit" idiots speed UP to the 30 mph limit........
How can you know they weren't looking at or assessing the movements of other vehicles/pedestrians ahead?
Why, because they wouldn't be bullied by the van driver into exceeding the speed limit?
Why do you assume that it is impossible for somebody to stick to the speed limit as well as still be aware of their surroundings?
The cause is an impatient van driver who can't safely overtake a vehicle.
If you can't safely overtake a vehicle doing 20 you shouldn't be overtaking it.
techguyone said:
If they did 20 in a 20 they'd be failed? That makes no sense at all.
I failed my first driving test because I “didn’t make enough progress”, even though I strictly adhered to every speed limit. There was a small queue of cars behind me for most of the test.The next time I did it I got the same examiner and this time I drove like everyone else around me and sped regularly. I passed.
Kawasicki said:
techguyone said:
If they did 20 in a 20 they'd be failed? That makes no sense at all.
I failed my first driving test because I “didn’t make enough progress”, even though I strictly adhered to every speed limit. There was a small queue of cars behind me for most of the test.The next time I did it I got the same examiner and this time I drove like everyone else around me and sped regularly. I passed.
I don't know any examiners who would give anyone a 'failing to make progress' driving fault for driving at the posted speed limit.
RSTurboPaul said:
I was going to say that think I forgot to finish that sentence, but the sentences leading up to it cover the relevant context.
What I was saying was slapping a lower speed limit on a road that still looks like a higher speed limit (whether due to its original design or its historic alignment) does not make the road look any different - therefore drivers will continue to choose speeds that reflect the surrounding environment, not the numbers on the pole.
This is shown in traffic surveys, where 85th percentile speeds remain at or around the original speed limit before it was reduced in line with Mean Speed policy.
For example, DfT data shows that 20mph zones have only something like 15-20% speed limit compliance, and when you look at the spread of the speeds, the 85th percentile remains around 30-35mph.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Surveys on compliance with the 30mph limits show around 85% of drivers drive at 30-35mph (within 10%+2mph ACPO guidelines, if they are still used) and the graphs have the same curve as the 20mph limit graphs above - it's almost as if 30mph is a natural speed for a built up environment and people will drive around that speed and vary it as conditions allow, rather than having a hard 20mph or 30mph vehicle limiter that (like cruise control) will encourage people to drive at that limit all the time and pay less attention to the road... (I am sure I read that the 30mph limit was introduced based on observation of real life driver behaviour, rather than through an idealistic '20s plenty' mindset that ignores human behaviour.)
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/speeds-s...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
As for what's stopping 'them' introducing lower limits on roads that don't resemble roads that should have those limits...? (see: the 20mph data above)
Sadly not much can be done. TROs are advertised in tiny print on roadside poles (if at all) and in small print in the back of local newspapers that nobody buys, and might be mentioned somewhere on the council website, so very few responses against changes are received - but, instead, the local people who have been brainwashed by anti-car, anti-mobility 'watermelon' (green on the outside, red on the inside) pressure groups (such as BRAKE) into thinking that a lower limit = World Peace and zero accidents write in and support it because they were the ones pushing for it.
What then happens is it goes through the design process, the local authority officers note that compliance is likely to be low, and the cabinet member or their delegated officer signs it off regardless. It gets implemented and people take no notice of it, the locals complain of 'speeding motorists!!!' (who are doing the same speeds as before the new limit) and get a police speedtrap set up, and then they all get caught because it's them doing the speeding mostly.
Rinse and repeat.
Come mandatory speed limiters, a lot of people are going to be asking 'WTF is this a XXmph limit for??' when they are actually forced to travel at that speed on an empty road with nothing to hit and no-one around, rather than just ignoring it like they do now.
Or they'll just switch off, leave their foot in the same position and expect the car to sort it all out, then wonder why inattention / falling asleep at the wheel accidents are increasing.
Mandatory speed limiters are a simplistic solution to an extremely complex issue, as are lowering speed limits 'because safety'.
As someone once said 'measure what is right, not what is easy'.
Sadly I don't think most in power got that memo.
Paul, you are quite correct - sadly vanhosen is one of the regular contributors for “Brake” on this forum and is always obsessed with lowering speed limits as the cure for all ills. What I was saying was slapping a lower speed limit on a road that still looks like a higher speed limit (whether due to its original design or its historic alignment) does not make the road look any different - therefore drivers will continue to choose speeds that reflect the surrounding environment, not the numbers on the pole.
This is shown in traffic surveys, where 85th percentile speeds remain at or around the original speed limit before it was reduced in line with Mean Speed policy.
For example, DfT data shows that 20mph zones have only something like 15-20% speed limit compliance, and when you look at the spread of the speeds, the 85th percentile remains around 30-35mph.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Surveys on compliance with the 30mph limits show around 85% of drivers drive at 30-35mph (within 10%+2mph ACPO guidelines, if they are still used) and the graphs have the same curve as the 20mph limit graphs above - it's almost as if 30mph is a natural speed for a built up environment and people will drive around that speed and vary it as conditions allow, rather than having a hard 20mph or 30mph vehicle limiter that (like cruise control) will encourage people to drive at that limit all the time and pay less attention to the road... (I am sure I read that the 30mph limit was introduced based on observation of real life driver behaviour, rather than through an idealistic '20s plenty' mindset that ignores human behaviour.)
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/speeds-s...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
As for what's stopping 'them' introducing lower limits on roads that don't resemble roads that should have those limits...? (see: the 20mph data above)
Sadly not much can be done. TROs are advertised in tiny print on roadside poles (if at all) and in small print in the back of local newspapers that nobody buys, and might be mentioned somewhere on the council website, so very few responses against changes are received - but, instead, the local people who have been brainwashed by anti-car, anti-mobility 'watermelon' (green on the outside, red on the inside) pressure groups (such as BRAKE) into thinking that a lower limit = World Peace and zero accidents write in and support it because they were the ones pushing for it.
What then happens is it goes through the design process, the local authority officers note that compliance is likely to be low, and the cabinet member or their delegated officer signs it off regardless. It gets implemented and people take no notice of it, the locals complain of 'speeding motorists!!!' (who are doing the same speeds as before the new limit) and get a police speedtrap set up, and then they all get caught because it's them doing the speeding mostly.
Rinse and repeat.
Come mandatory speed limiters, a lot of people are going to be asking 'WTF is this a XXmph limit for??' when they are actually forced to travel at that speed on an empty road with nothing to hit and no-one around, rather than just ignoring it like they do now.
Or they'll just switch off, leave their foot in the same position and expect the car to sort it all out, then wonder why inattention / falling asleep at the wheel accidents are increasing.
Mandatory speed limiters are a simplistic solution to an extremely complex issue, as are lowering speed limits 'because safety'.
As someone once said 'measure what is right, not what is easy'.
Sadly I don't think most in power got that memo.
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Friday 7th May 21:02
livinginasia said:
Paul, you are quite correct - sadly vanhosen is one of the regular contributors for “Brake” on this forum and is always obsessed with lowering speed limits as the cure for all ills.
Err no. You clearly either don't read what I write or suffer comprehension problems.I've categorically stated on these forums I am not a supporter of "Brake".
I've clearly stated on these forums I find the extremists at both ends of the spectrum crackpots.
I've not said I desire speed limits lowered at all.
I have said I am not a saint & that I exceed speed limits.
I have said if there were no speed limits, or if I couldn't be prosecuted for exceeding them, I would travel at speeds far in excess of the current limits (or 85th percentile) a lot of the time.
I have said that I will point out inaccuracies & falsehoods.
I have said that I don't support or wouldn't campaign for increases or decreases (& that doesn't mean that I think all limits are appropriately set).
I have said that the current situation (a relatively small amount of the network being covered by enforcement at any one time) doesn't make me feel my licence is unduly threatened (despite me exceeding speed limits). I also believe that, by and large, it's not difficult to avoid getting points on your licence, if you are so inclined to & you could do it without having to stare at your speedo constantly.
Max_Torque said:
If an "advanced" driver did 20.000 down that road and caused similar conflict with many other users they'd be failed for in-appropriate driving....
I would advise a candidate for an advanced driving test that they could never be marked down for observing the speed limit - and doing so according to the speed on their speedo. On the other hand they would be likely to be failed if they exceed the speed limit more than marginally.In this situation I suggest that the advanced driver would actively cooperate with overtakes by impatient drivers behind.
Incidentally, my daughter was driving in a London 20 a couple of weeks ago. When a police car turned out from a side road and started to follow her she slowed down to about 17. She was then stopped and breathalised for 'driving suspiciously' - the suspicious nature of her driving being compliance with the limit. The police were polite throughout. Rightly or wrongly, she was very upset and offended - she said she cried. Her reaction gives an insight into how 'victims' of stop and search feel.
vonhosen said:
livinginasia said:
Paul, you are quite correct - sadly vanhosen is one of the regular contributors for “Brake” on this forum and is always obsessed with lowering speed limits as the cure for all ills.
Err no. You clearly either don't read what I write or suffer comprehension problems.I've categorically stated on these forums I am not a supporter of "Brake".
I've clearly stated on these forums I find the extremists at both ends of the spectrum crackpots.
I've not said I desire speed limits lowered at all.
I have said I am not a saint & that I exceed speed limits.
I have said if there were no speed limits, or if I couldn't be prosecuted for exceeding them, I would travel at speeds far in excess of the current limits (or 85th percentile) a lot of the time.
I have said that I will point out inaccuracies & falsehoods.
I have said that I don't support or wouldn't campaign for increases or decreases (& that doesn't mean that I think all limits are appropriately set).
I have said that the current situation (a relatively small amount of the network being covered by enforcement at any one time) doesn't make me feel my licence is unduly threatened (despite me exceeding speed limits). I also believe that, by and large, it's not difficult to avoid getting points on your licence, if you are so inclined to & you could do it without having to stare at your speedo constantly.
waremark said:
Max_Torque said:
If an "advanced" driver did 20.000 down that road and caused similar conflict with many other users they'd be failed for in-appropriate driving....
I would advise a candidate for an advanced driving test that they could never be marked down for observing the speed limit - and doing so according to the speed on their speedo. On the other hand they would be likely to be failed if they exceed the speed limit more than marginally.In this situation I suggest that the advanced driver would actively cooperate with overtakes by impatient drivers behind.
Incidentally, my daughter was driving in a London 20 a couple of weeks ago. When a police car turned out from a side road and started to follow her she slowed down to about 17. She was then stopped and breathalised for 'driving suspiciously' - the suspicious nature of her driving being compliance with the limit. The police were polite throughout. Rightly or wrongly, she was very upset and offended - she said she cried. Her reaction gives an insight into how 'victims' of stop and search feel.
Kawasicki said:
vonhosen said:
livinginasia said:
Paul, you are quite correct - sadly vanhosen is one of the regular contributors for “Brake” on this forum and is always obsessed with lowering speed limits as the cure for all ills.
Err no. You clearly either don't read what I write or suffer comprehension problems.I've categorically stated on these forums I am not a supporter of "Brake".
I've clearly stated on these forums I find the extremists at both ends of the spectrum crackpots.
I've not said I desire speed limits lowered at all.
I have said I am not a saint & that I exceed speed limits.
I have said if there were no speed limits, or if I couldn't be prosecuted for exceeding them, I would travel at speeds far in excess of the current limits (or 85th percentile) a lot of the time.
I have said that I will point out inaccuracies & falsehoods.
I have said that I don't support or wouldn't campaign for increases or decreases (& that doesn't mean that I think all limits are appropriately set).
I have said that the current situation (a relatively small amount of the network being covered by enforcement at any one time) doesn't make me feel my licence is unduly threatened (despite me exceeding speed limits). I also believe that, by and large, it's not difficult to avoid getting points on your licence, if you are so inclined to & you could do it without having to stare at your speedo constantly.
My position is that I believe in the premise of democratically elected governments being able to legislate & uphold that law, even if I don't happen to agree with it because it doesn't suit me personally.
A lot of people this morning are waking up with a Mayor/Council that they personally didn't vote for (including me)........that's tough luck.
We have to respect that more people voted for them.
techguyone said:
If they did 20 in a 20 they'd be failed? That makes no sense at all.
Let us consider the two primary rules for advanced driving:1) Drive in a way to maximise overall safety and to minimise risk
2) Drive in a way to efficiently get from A to B with the least potential conflict to all other road users of any type
Pretty simple really.
So lets take our road, a road that has been a 40 mph limit for the last 26 years at least, but is now marked with "Temporary 20mph limit"
Because a 20 mph limit is inappropriately slow, and this road is driven by a lot of people who have driven it day in, day out for years at 40mph, naturally most drivers exceed that 20 mph limit. Now note, they are mostly not doing 40, but somewhere between 20 and 40. The problem, the CONFLICT comes when someone who is simply following a completely arbitrary sign applies a rigid and highly inappropriate response, namely, the limit sign say 20, so i'm doing 20.
The is NO reason to do 20, other than the sign, but doing so now brings massive conflict, an conflict that significantly raises the risk of an accident, both directly on this road, and afterwards where the road joins a busy dual carriageway with a 70 mph limit, where i've seen people racing each other and cutting each other up down the slip road because they have got so frustrated.
Lets aslo be clear, the primary fault is the people "speeding" but this is the MAJORITY of uses because the limit is totally inappropriate, in effect the law in this case is criminalising the majority.
So, as an advanced driver i would expect the follwoing actions, and if on a examination, a verbal explanation of these actions:
1) From observations and conditions i assess this road as safe at speeds above 20 mph, the road layout, sightlines and conditions all support a speed above 20 mph.
2) Driving at less than or equal to 20 mph is likely to bring me into close conflict with other motorists, as i can see from other users this road.
3) I am therefore going to choose to drive slightly above the posted temporary limit, whilst i observe it to be completely safe to do so, in order to minimise that conflict and allow me to create a larger exclusion zone around my car
4) I am continuing to observe and assess conditions and will modulate my speed as appropriate.
What speed do i drive this road? for me, a little under 30.
This is significantly faster than the posted temporary 20 limit, which is incredibly slow on a wide open road (hence the conflict with white van man who just wants to get home), but also significantly slower than the original posted 40 mph. I may choose to use some of the road features (such as the roundabouts) to actually open up a gap behind me to the tailgater by carrying more speed through those features, where clearly safe to do so, for example i may briefly accelerate hard to say 40, then coast back down to 30 coming out of that roundabout. This opens the gap behind and buys me some safety bubble.
The other thing i should note about this inappropriate limit is that it is now causing people to "rat run" through the previously less used small roads that run parralel through the housing estates of which this road was a bypass, ie a road expressely designed to take drivers AWAY from where people live! You'll regularily now see a car peel out of the 20 mph nose to tail queue and speed off down a side road, because they know it's now quicker to drive the 30 mph limit roads instead......
Kawasicki said:
waremark said:
Max_Torque said:
If an "advanced" driver did 20.000 down that road and caused similar conflict with many other users they'd be failed for in-appropriate driving....
I would advise a candidate for an advanced driving test that they could never be marked down for observing the speed limit - and doing so according to the speed on their speedo. On the other hand they would be likely to be failed if they exceed the speed limit more than marginally.In this situation I suggest that the advanced driver would actively cooperate with overtakes by impatient drivers behind.
Incidentally, my daughter was driving in a London 20 a couple of weeks ago. When a police car turned out from a side road and started to follow her she slowed down to about 17. She was then stopped and breathalised for 'driving suspiciously' - the suspicious nature of her driving being compliance with the limit. The police were polite throughout. Rightly or wrongly, she was very upset and offended - she said she cried. Her reaction gives an insight into how 'victims' of stop and search feel.
The reason given "nobody overtakes a police car, we thought you were trying to bait us".......
Fair enough, that's probably a pretty valdi reason in most cases ;-)
Max_Torque said:
techguyone said:
If they did 20 in a 20 they'd be failed? That makes no sense at all.
Let us consider the two primary rules for advanced driving:1) Drive in a way to maximise overall safety and to minimise risk
2) Drive in a way to efficiently get from A to B with the least potential conflict to all other road users of any type
Pretty simple really.
So lets take our road, a road that has been a 40 mph limit for the last 26 years at least, but is now marked with "Temporary 20mph limit"
Because a 20 mph limit is inappropriately slow, and this road is driven by a lot of people who have driven it day in, day out for years at 40mph, naturally most drivers exceed that 20 mph limit. Now note, they are mostly not doing 40, but somewhere between 20 and 40. The problem, the CONFLICT comes when someone who is simply following a completely arbitrary sign applies a rigid and highly inappropriate response, namely, the limit sign say 20, so i'm doing 20.
The is NO reason to do 20, other than the sign, but doing so now brings massive conflict, an conflict that significantly raises the risk of an accident, both directly on this road, and afterwards where the road joins a busy dual carriageway with a 70 mph limit, where i've seen people racing each other and cutting each other up down the slip road because they have got so frustrated.
Lets aslo be clear, the primary fault is the people "speeding" but this is the MAJORITY of uses because the limit is totally inappropriate, in effect the law in this case is criminalising the majority.
So, as an advanced driver i would expect the follwoing actions, and if on a examination, a verbal explanation of these actions:
1) From observations and conditions i assess this road as safe at speeds above 20 mph, the road layout, sightlines and conditions all support a speed above 20 mph.
2) Driving at less than or equal to 20 mph is likely to bring me into close conflict with other motorists, as i can see from other users this road.
3) I am therefore going to choose to drive slightly above the posted temporary limit, whilst i observe it to be completely safe to do so, in order to minimise that conflict and allow me to create a larger exclusion zone around my car
4) I am continuing to observe and assess conditions and will modulate my speed as appropriate.
What speed do i drive this road? for me, a little under 30.
This is significantly faster than the posted temporary 20 limit, which is incredibly slow on a wide open road (hence the conflict with white van man who just wants to get home), but also significantly slower than the original posted 40 mph. I may choose to use some of the road features (such as the roundabouts) to actually open up a gap behind me to the tailgater by carrying more speed through those features, where clearly safe to do so, for example i may briefly accelerate hard to say 40, then coast back down to 30 coming out of that roundabout. This opens the gap behind and buys me some safety bubble.
The other thing i should note about this inappropriate limit is that it is now causing people to "rat run" through the previously less used small roads that run parralel through the housing estates of which this road was a bypass, ie a road expressely designed to take drivers AWAY from where people live! You'll regularily now see a car peel out of the 20 mph nose to tail queue and speed off down a side road, because they know it's now quicker to drive the 30 mph limit roads instead......
They have their own criteria.
Their literature doesn't read as you'd like it.
https://www.iamroadsmart.com/courses/on-road-manag...
Max_Torque said:
I was pulled over years ago for overtaking a police car! They were doing 40, the road was a 60, there was a long straight, completely clear, so i overtook (textbox overtake, not a swoop past at 100 type afair), and they pulled me over.
The reason given "nobody overtakes a police car, we thought you were trying to bait us".......
Fair enough, that's probably a pretty valdi reason in most cases ;-)
Did you say you were trying but you couldn't find the switch...?The reason given "nobody overtakes a police car, we thought you were trying to bait us".......
Fair enough, that's probably a pretty valdi reason in most cases ;-)
vonhosen said:
Advanced driving organisations aren't beholden to your idea of what amounts to 'advanced driving'.
They have their own criteria.
Their literature doesn't read as you'd like it.
https://www.iamroadsmart.com/courses/on-road-manag...
Er, not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse to make a point or are struggling to understand how the world actually works?They have their own criteria.
Their literature doesn't read as you'd like it.
https://www.iamroadsmart.com/courses/on-road-manag...
Let me ask you a two questions:
If you ask a court judge what is the legal motorway speed limit, what will he reply?
At what speed does a court judge drive on the motorway?
Or to put it another way:
The official motorway speed limit in the uk is 70 mph
The pollice are extremely unlikely to prosecute drivers travelling up to around 80 to 85 mph unless other factors apply (dangerous driving,poor conditions, tailgating, aggression etc)
So do you think any motorist group can put in writing, in any officially released documentation, that they condone breaking a legal speed limit?
This is another case of the same thing we have been discussing. The legal limits are necessary but they have to be completely black and white in the eyes of the law. ie 70mph is legal, 71 mph is not.
The real world does not work like that, it is much more complex. Doing 71mph whilst unarguably illegal and indeed being potentially slightly more dangerous than doing 70, is in reality irrelevant on the sliding scale of risk.
The important factor for breaking the posted legal limit is the same things as for any driver making a choice about their speed, ie the drivers own capabilites in making a valid assessment of the true risk from doing the speed they are doing. This is why learner drivers are taught to simply not exceed the posted limit (which itself is often far too high a speed in a lot of situations) because they do not yet have a proven capbility for self assessment.
The bases for advanced driving is self assessment and self awareness. Most drivers stopped for speeding say something like "oh, sorry officer, i had no idea i was going so fast" which is imo, even worse than the speeding itself. It's basically saying, "hey i was speeding and paying no attention to my driving either". Advanced driving tution which includes things like doing the verbal commentary are not actually about learning to do "commentary", but the fact that by learning to do commentary you are both learning how to assess a situation but also getting into the habbit of doing just that. Without your examiner in the car, you do the same thing instinctively for your own benefit, and hence automatically gain and practice the critical skill of assessment.
As an Advanced driver, if you speed then:
1) You accept the punishment if you are caught speeding (BTW if you are caught speeding your observation skills are terrible and need work, heck they even paint the cameras and vans bright yellow and put up their locations on facebook....)
2) You always must have a obserservationally linked, valid rationale for the speed at which you are travelling at any given moment, both when below and above any posted limit.
AER said:
Max_Torque said:
I was pulled over years ago for overtaking a police car! They were doing 40, the road was a 60, there was a long straight, completely clear, so i overtook (textbox overtake, not a swoop past at 100 type afair), and they pulled me over.
The reason given "nobody overtakes a police car, we thought you were trying to bait us".......
Fair enough, that's probably a pretty valdi reason in most cases ;-)
Did you say you were trying but you couldn't find the switch...?The reason given "nobody overtakes a police car, we thought you were trying to bait us".......
Fair enough, that's probably a pretty valdi reason in most cases ;-)
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