RE: Alfa Romeo Stelvio QF vs. Mercedes-AMG C63 S
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
You’ve really got to be travelling at very silly speeds on a public highway to surpass the big advantage of that extra forward vision that a high performance SUV gives.
I'm not really sure this is true? I've driven everything from a Caterham to a HGV and frankly i'm not actually sure this is true. It's not like modern SUVs actually provide that much of a higher driver eye line to make a "safe" overtake possible?(sure maybe in very specific circumstances, where say a hedge was juuust tall enough to block the view from a Estate car, but not quite tall enough to clock the view from an SUV around a set of turns and so turning a "Blind" overtake into a sighted one. Possible, sure, but not a daily occurrence ime..
(btw, the best real world overtaking car i've ever driven is a Tesla P100D. Total traction, massive instant performance, (no gears or messing), just nail it and whammo, you're past. Honorable mention to the Porka 918 in second place)
Max_Torque said:
nickfrog said:
You clearly can.
let me get this clear, you are saying you can beat the laws of physics? Sorry, i'm a bit skeptical of that assertion...Edited by nickfrog on Saturday 23 March 19:04
Max_Torque said:
nickfrog said:
Max_Torque said:
In fact, the day you misjudge a turn, in 2 tonnes of SUV doing 120 mph
On the open road ? I have always admired your posting and learnt a lot but sadly on this one, you've gone a little off piste...
My point is that the Stelvio has ample lateral grip and traction for sane level of B-road speeds, do you agree ?
nickfrog said:
Max_Torque said:
nickfrog said:
Max_Torque said:
In fact, the day you misjudge a turn, in 2 tonnes of SUV doing 120 mph
On the open road ? I have always admired your posting and learnt a lot but sadly on this one, you've gone a little off piste...
My point is that the Stelvio has ample lateral grip and traction for sane level of B-road speeds, do you agree ?
No, my point was really that the problem with performance SUVs is nothing to do with their absolute performance, which these days thanks to modern forced induction that enables the engine to make plenty of power (500bhp easy these days) if plenty enough to accelerate even a "who ate all the pies" SUV like a RRS up into three figures in a very short time.
No, the reason, imo, you don't see performance SUVs actually driving fast is because of other factors, such as the aloof steering feel, crashy suspension, flighty "in-extremis" handling (thanks to having to have high gain kinematics to deal with that mass and high CofG), but also because of the total lack of subtlety of the things! The beauty of more staid looking performance estates is that no one gives them a second glance, they are less likely to have ridiculously shouty exhausts (RRS SVR i'm looking at you!) and take up 3/4 of the road with their cartoon sized wheels and tyres and gigantic width, so you CAN drive them fast in the real world.
Yes, a modern performance SUV has plenty of lateral grip, more than enough for the average driver, but ime, you'll regularly see them cross the centre line in turns because the driver cannot feel what grip they have, and being tall, often have a much lesser sense of speed than a lower slung car, meaning their drivers get to turns and because they don't want to brake (causing the tall body to lurch uncomfortably fore and aft), they go for the "i'll use all the width of the road" technique........
Further, because there is little connection between the SUV and the driver, driving them fast is no reward, and so their drivers generally don't. Seriously, have you ever seen a Porsche Cayene or similar being given some proper stick for more than 3 seconds off the lights? I haven't.........
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 23 March 19:36
Max_Torque said:
I started this thread by saying "i've never found performance SUVs to actually be that quick across country in the real world" and if you want to go quickly across country then you are going to have to drive fast! Even something like a hot hatch (Golf R, Type R etc) is plenty quick enough these days to run up into the low 100's of mph if you so much as drive at anything more than about 7/10th effort. My commute is 16 miles of B road, and yes, i can often touch 120 or more mph without trying that hard on the straighter bits....... (modern cars ARE fast, in case you haven't noticed)
No, my point was really that the problem with performance SUVs is nothing to do with their absolute performance, which these days thanks to modern forced induction that enables the engine to make plenty of power (500bhp easy these days) if plenty enough to accelerate even a "who ate all the pies" SUV like a RRS up into three figures in a very short time.
No, the reason, imo, you don't see performance SUVs actually driving fast is because of other factors, such as the aloof steering feel, crashy suspension, flighty "in-extremis" handling (thanks to having to have high gain kinematics to deal with that mass and high CofG), but also because of the total lack of subtlety of the things! The beauty of more staid looking performance estates is that no one gives them a second glance, they are less likely to have ridiculously shouty exhausts (RRS SVR i'm looking at you!) and take up 3/4 of the road with their cartoon sized wheels and tyres and gigantic width, so you CAN drive them fast in the real world.
Yes, a modern performance SUV has plenty of lateral grip, more than enough for the average driver, but ime, you'll regularly see them cross the centre line in turns because the driver cannot feel what grip they have, and being tall, often have a much lesser sense of speed than a lower slung car, meaning their drivers get to turns and because they don't want to brake (causing the tall body to lurch uncomfortably fore and aft), they go for the "i'll use all the width of the road" technique........
Further, because there is little connection between the SUV and the driver, driving them fast is no reward, and so their drivers generally don't. Seriously, have you ever seen a Porsche Cayene or similar being given some proper stick for more than 3 seconds off the lights? I haven't.........
With equal drivers you wouldn’t see which way the Alfa went on your B road commute! No, my point was really that the problem with performance SUVs is nothing to do with their absolute performance, which these days thanks to modern forced induction that enables the engine to make plenty of power (500bhp easy these days) if plenty enough to accelerate even a "who ate all the pies" SUV like a RRS up into three figures in a very short time.
No, the reason, imo, you don't see performance SUVs actually driving fast is because of other factors, such as the aloof steering feel, crashy suspension, flighty "in-extremis" handling (thanks to having to have high gain kinematics to deal with that mass and high CofG), but also because of the total lack of subtlety of the things! The beauty of more staid looking performance estates is that no one gives them a second glance, they are less likely to have ridiculously shouty exhausts (RRS SVR i'm looking at you!) and take up 3/4 of the road with their cartoon sized wheels and tyres and gigantic width, so you CAN drive them fast in the real world.
Yes, a modern performance SUV has plenty of lateral grip, more than enough for the average driver, but ime, you'll regularly see them cross the centre line in turns because the driver cannot feel what grip they have, and being tall, often have a much lesser sense of speed than a lower slung car, meaning their drivers get to turns and because they don't want to brake (causing the tall body to lurch uncomfortably fore and aft), they go for the "i'll use all the width of the road" technique........
Further, because there is little connection between the SUV and the driver, driving them fast is no reward, and so their drivers generally don't. Seriously, have you ever seen a Porsche Cayene or similar being given some proper stick for more than 3 seconds off the lights? I haven't.........
Edited by Max_Torque on Saturday 23 March 19:36
Cannot think of one good reason you would buy that absolutely gopping suv in cheapo Peugeot 206 CC blue (seriously how is this colour making a comeback, I’ve seen it on new Porsche’s to 
) over a C63 (i.e. C40 AMG why do they have to fabricate the engine size) AMG estate and I am not even part of the brainwashed “all German cars are perfect” group here on PH. Seriously it’s going to be s**t in a muddy field and it’s COG will dynamically let it down despite however rapid it is. Just buy a new fast estate or a proper 4x4, or a used version of both with the £70k+ for one of these! Shocking
) over a C63 (i.e. C40 AMG why do they have to fabricate the engine size) AMG estate and I am not even part of the brainwashed “all German cars are perfect” group here on PH. Seriously it’s going to be s**t in a muddy field and it’s COG will dynamically let it down despite however rapid it is. Just buy a new fast estate or a proper 4x4, or a used version of both with the £70k+ for one of these! Shockingbig_rob_sydney said:
Max_Torque said:
phalfalan said:
and the reaction from others when you give it the beans and disappear into the horizon is priceless.
The problem is, that in reality, although you might "think" your 2 ton body-on-stilts SUV is fast across the ground, it really isn't. Sure it's got 500 bhp, but with you in it it weighs 2 tonnes, so that's 250bhp/ton, which is ok, but nothing to write home about. And because it's massive, it has the aero drag of a barn, and add in all those lumbering 4wd cogs and driveshafts and the corresponding significant loss of wheel power, and it's really nothing special to write home about once you get up to the higher speeds. But then you come to the real issue, the one that, ime, means i've never yet found and SUV on the road that can actually maintain a "high" average cross country pace, and that is the fact that it's terrifically wide and has zero steering feedback, so the average driver has no idea how hard they are actually pushing, so even if it had good consistent lateral grip (which it doesn't because it has to has huge lateral and longitudinal roll stiffness to stop that lardy body flopping all over the place and making your passengers sick), it's not a car that you want to come round a turn anywhere the limit and find a tractor and trailer in the middle of the road that you have to squeeze past........These "performance" SUVs have one party trick, which is being reasonably fast off the line for the first 100 yards or so and that's about it, and EVs ar going to make that party trick look a bit limp pretty soon anyway!
1) How fast do you realistically expect to be going at the point where the parasitic losses versus a more efficient platform become sufficiently evident to warrant throwing in the towel
2) if I caught you doing something like that around my wife and kids, I'd probably put a brick through your face
Barga said:
Max_Torque said:
I started this thread by saying "i've never found performance SUVs to actually be that quick across country in the real world" and if you want to go quickly across country then you are going to have to drive fast! Even something like a hot hatch (Golf R, Type R etc) is plenty quick enough these days to run up into the low 100's of mph if you so much as drive at anything more than about 7/10th effort. My commute is 16 miles of B road, and yes, i can often touch 120 or more mph without trying that hard on the straighter bits....... (modern cars ARE fast, in case you haven't noticed)
No, my point was really that the problem with performance SUVs is nothing to do with their absolute performance, which these days thanks to modern forced induction that enables the engine to make plenty of power (500bhp easy these days) if plenty enough to accelerate even a "who ate all the pies" SUV like a RRS up into three figures in a very short time.
No, the reason, imo, you don't see performance SUVs actually driving fast is because of other factors, such as the aloof steering feel, crashy suspension, flighty "in-extremis" handling (thanks to having to have high gain kinematics to deal with that mass and high CofG), but also because of the total lack of subtlety of the things! The beauty of more staid looking performance estates is that no one gives them a second glance, they are less likely to have ridiculously shouty exhausts (RRS SVR i'm looking at you!) and take up 3/4 of the road with their cartoon sized wheels and tyres and gigantic width, so you CAN drive them fast in the real world.
Yes, a modern performance SUV has plenty of lateral grip, more than enough for the average driver, but ime, you'll regularly see them cross the centre line in turns because the driver cannot feel what grip they have, and being tall, often have a much lesser sense of speed than a lower slung car, meaning their drivers get to turns and because they don't want to brake (causing the tall body to lurch uncomfortably fore and aft), they go for the "i'll use all the width of the road" technique........
Further, because there is little connection between the SUV and the driver, driving them fast is no reward, and so their drivers generally don't. Seriously, have you ever seen a Porsche Cayene or similar being given some proper stick for more than 3 seconds off the lights? I haven't.........
With equal drivers you wouldn’t see which way the Alfa went on your B road commute! No, my point was really that the problem with performance SUVs is nothing to do with their absolute performance, which these days thanks to modern forced induction that enables the engine to make plenty of power (500bhp easy these days) if plenty enough to accelerate even a "who ate all the pies" SUV like a RRS up into three figures in a very short time.
No, the reason, imo, you don't see performance SUVs actually driving fast is because of other factors, such as the aloof steering feel, crashy suspension, flighty "in-extremis" handling (thanks to having to have high gain kinematics to deal with that mass and high CofG), but also because of the total lack of subtlety of the things! The beauty of more staid looking performance estates is that no one gives them a second glance, they are less likely to have ridiculously shouty exhausts (RRS SVR i'm looking at you!) and take up 3/4 of the road with their cartoon sized wheels and tyres and gigantic width, so you CAN drive them fast in the real world.
Yes, a modern performance SUV has plenty of lateral grip, more than enough for the average driver, but ime, you'll regularly see them cross the centre line in turns because the driver cannot feel what grip they have, and being tall, often have a much lesser sense of speed than a lower slung car, meaning their drivers get to turns and because they don't want to brake (causing the tall body to lurch uncomfortably fore and aft), they go for the "i'll use all the width of the road" technique........
Further, because there is little connection between the SUV and the driver, driving them fast is no reward, and so their drivers generally don't. Seriously, have you ever seen a Porsche Cayene or similar being given some proper stick for more than 3 seconds off the lights? I haven't.........
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 23 March 19:36
Max_Torque - there’s a route I and a few mates regularly drive for fun from Rhyader, through the Elan Valley to Lampeter. I’ve done it all kinds of things from McLarens, Aston Vantage a 458,M4, M5, various AMGs, and an Alfa Giulia Quad.
One of the most enjoyable ever was a slightly damp morning in a Macan Turbo. Left the two 911s and M5 with me for dead and I am no Troy Queef driving god. The Stelvio in this article would be absolutely brilliant fun on that same route.
Utterly mad #supersizemesuvconsumerculture dictates to the masses than inefficiency and #vehicleobesity are good. Utter nonsense from scientitific and feeling perspectives. Sitting higher means higher polar moment of inertia for the driver and passenger heads resulting in ever more roads reduced from 60mph to 40 zones or slower as SUV drivers can't take the corners even if the vehicles can. Alfa, now that Machcionne has gone (RIP), PLEASE BRING US A 159SW replacement based on the Giulia.
The bit that makes me laugh is that these “performance” SUVs are almost always driven by 50-something fat blokes trying desperately to look cool.
Middle-aged people buy SUVs and crossovers because of their dicky backs etc. - Part of the reason “normal” stuff isn’t selling is because these days, most under 40s can’t afford expensive cars (the petrolheads might stretch to a hot hatch like a Golf R) and it’s the baby boomers with all the money. I’d take a C63 saloon / touring over the Stelvio and other similar FUGLY crap any day if I had the choice.
Middle-aged people buy SUVs and crossovers because of their dicky backs etc. - Part of the reason “normal” stuff isn’t selling is because these days, most under 40s can’t afford expensive cars (the petrolheads might stretch to a hot hatch like a Golf R) and it’s the baby boomers with all the money. I’d take a C63 saloon / touring over the Stelvio and other similar FUGLY crap any day if I had the choice.
Clivey said:
The bit that makes me laugh is that these “performance” SUVs are almost always driven by 50-something fat blokes trying desperately to look cool.
Middle-aged people buy SUVs and crossovers because of their dicky backs etc. - Part of the reason “normal” stuff isn’t selling is because these days, most under 40s can’t afford expensive cars (the petrolheads might stretch to a hot hatch like a Golf R) and it’s the baby boomers with all the money. I’d take a C63 saloon / touring over the Stelvio and other similar FUGLY crap any day if I had the choice.
Is it difficult coming up with silly things like that first couple of sentences or do they just come naturally? Middle-aged people buy SUVs and crossovers because of their dicky backs etc. - Part of the reason “normal” stuff isn’t selling is because these days, most under 40s can’t afford expensive cars (the petrolheads might stretch to a hot hatch like a Golf R) and it’s the baby boomers with all the money. I’d take a C63 saloon / touring over the Stelvio and other similar FUGLY crap any day if I had the choice.
Max_Torque said:
I'm not really sure this is true? I've driven everything from a Caterham to a HGV and frankly i'm not actually sure this is true. It's not like modern SUVs actually provide that much of a higher driver eye line to make a "safe" overtake possible?
(sure maybe in very specific circumstances, where say a hedge was juuust tall enough to block the view from a Estate car, but not quite tall enough to clock the view from an SUV around a set of turns and so turning a "Blind" overtake into a sighted one. Possible, sure, but not a daily occurrence ime..
Terrain obviously plays a key role. In the parts of Europe which are historically suited to hosting battles you can be lying on a skateboard and have a clear view ahead regardless of the twists and turns but in the UK out generally tighter terrain, more complicated road layouts and the higher volumes of traffic tend to give SUVs a big advantage. (sure maybe in very specific circumstances, where say a hedge was juuust tall enough to block the view from a Estate car, but not quite tall enough to clock the view from an SUV around a set of turns and so turning a "Blind" overtake into a sighted one. Possible, sure, but not a daily occurrence ime..
Being able to approach a typical roundabout without needing to slow because you can’t be hundred% sure of how clear it is because of barriers and hedging on the run in or foliage on the roundabout itself, having far fewer dips in the road, clearer lines of sight over the tops of multiple cars that need passing.
The cars I drive are either tall or very low and on the roads I drive regularly the taller cars get held up less and they are slower cars. There is one particular A road which in the low cars, despite their performance, only really has a couple of safe overtake points but in the tall cars there are quite a few more. Dips in the road aren’t there and you can see what’s at side junctions hundreds of yards earlier over the cars you plan to pass and there’s no need to slow due to obscured views on any of the roundabouts.
With regards to SUV cutting corners, that really has nothing to do with the cars. It’s a particular type of driver who cuts corners and I would be inclined to agree if someone suggested that this type of driver was commonly found in premium SUVs.
Up until last decade, if I remember correctly, cars from luxury brands (whether it be a Merc or something non-German) were defined by the simplicity, elegance and restraint in their design. And oh do I miss those days. I'd normally prefer a performance estate over an SUV any day but I can't shake away the impression that the Merc is just trying too hard especially with its interior. Those blingy bits laid everywhere possible would be sure to cause a headache after a long day at work. And what is with the ambient lighting reminiscent of a cheesy night club's? I never thought I'd say this but the Alfa's Mazda-esque interior looks better, at least it's simpler and more restrained in comparison though the material used could be improved.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff