RE: Honda NSX-R: PH Heroes
Discussion
sr.guiri said:
Audi R8, 10 a penny, run of the mill, every man and his dog within the M25 has one and a little bit shouty. Mr regular with access to PCP, too afraid to stray from the well beaten track of others. Warranty and newness gives him comfort, and if you can't meet a payment, send it back, no bother. An Audi badge gives you a warm feeling, and is respected at the Gastro pub.
Honda NSX. You are MR ICE
You know your s
t about cars.
Just my opinion
Toe-curling levels of crass and lazy stereotyping Honda NSX. You are MR ICE
You know your st about cars.Just my opinion
yonex said:
The NSX is absolutely a supercar, time has been unkind in certain areas, such as specific power outputs, but let's back track a bit.
The Senna link is tenuous for me, he was given one, maybe commented but tbh wasn't the project leader
It's a great car, it shrinks around you. Visibility is excellent and it's as easy to drive as anything else. The engineering behind it was absolutely at the edge of the envelope in 1991, think about it. Gearbox, wonderful, noise, drama, all brilliant.
It's major weakness for me, was the fact it was more GT than anything else. Owning one at 30 years old was a mistake in hindsight, I think I would actually appreciate it way more now. The trouble is, a 355 is for me, the next step. I have visited Honda Tokyo a coupe of times and sat in the R and thoroughly enjoyed myself. Honda should have released the R in the UK, it would have sold loads.
I'd never pay £150K for one now, all this chat about old cars being better, well, drive a 458 and let me know what exactly is lacking. Times change, it's a great car, in it's era, but it's not Jesus Christ.
I would say this NSX is in a different league comapared to the 458 when it comes to driver engagement. The NSX wins me over with its steering alone and its manual gearbox is one of the all time best if not the best.The Senna link is tenuous for me, he was given one, maybe commented but tbh wasn't the project leader
It's a great car, it shrinks around you. Visibility is excellent and it's as easy to drive as anything else. The engineering behind it was absolutely at the edge of the envelope in 1991, think about it. Gearbox, wonderful, noise, drama, all brilliant. It's major weakness for me, was the fact it was more GT than anything else. Owning one at 30 years old was a mistake in hindsight, I think I would actually appreciate it way more now. The trouble is, a 355 is for me, the next step. I have visited Honda Tokyo a coupe of times and sat in the R and thoroughly enjoyed myself. Honda should have released the R in the UK, it would have sold loads.
I'd never pay £150K for one now, all this chat about old cars being better, well, drive a 458 and let me know what exactly is lacking. Times change, it's a great car, in it's era, but it's not Jesus Christ.
Edited by C.MW on Sunday 14th April 01:29
C.MW said:
The NSX wins me over with its steering alone ...
From what I can gather only very early NSXs and possibly R versions had no power steering. Most of those built had early electric powering steering, and like the S2000, were regarded as *crap* from a steering feel and feedback perspective.
Olivera said:
C.MW said:
The NSX wins me over with its steering alone ...
From what I can gather only very early NSXs and possibly R versions had no power steering. Most of those built had early electric powering steering, and like the S2000, were regarded as *crap* from a steering feel and feedback perspective.
cybertrophic said:
This or a mclaren F1 are possibly the only two supercars is actually want to buy if I won the lottery: engineering perfection
I'm not sure the NSX is engineering perfection, the engine is transverse after all. But for reasons I can't explain, I agree completely about your choice of cars. 996 GT3RS isn't far behind, neither is the Speciale, but the NSX and unsurprisingly, the F1, are just crazily desirable to me.big_rob_sydney said:
When I read articles like this, it leaves me in two minds.
Are we talking about the actual driving experience of it, right now, with modern rubber, compared to other vehicles, or, are we talking about it in the context of what it was back in the day?
Because as much as I love the older cars (I ran a 22B for 7 years), even I would struggle to suggest that the older cars can hang with the new machinery (progress and all that).
We may be making some driving god points about manual v DSG, etc, but we are not all driving gods, no matter how wishful our thinking.
And while I'd love to have my 22B back (but without the ridiculous price tag being asked these days), I'm just as happy to move on to something more modern, at a far more realistic and accessible price.
You're bang on. So tired of forum 'driving gods' harping on about the essential requirement for all and every car to have a manual gearbox to be even considered a true 'drivers car'. My 944 S2 and 205 1.9GTi - absolutely, no question about it: manual all the way because they basically have no weight, power or driver aids and frankly - the auto alternatives were so unimaginably awful. But the thought of trying to enjoy something modern like an Alpine or GT2 RS by having to constantly take your hands off the wheel to fiddle with some stick poking out of the floor is just ludicrous. But then again, I'm unfortunately NOT a 'driving god', so what would I know! Are we talking about the actual driving experience of it, right now, with modern rubber, compared to other vehicles, or, are we talking about it in the context of what it was back in the day?
Because as much as I love the older cars (I ran a 22B for 7 years), even I would struggle to suggest that the older cars can hang with the new machinery (progress and all that).
We may be making some driving god points about manual v DSG, etc, but we are not all driving gods, no matter how wishful our thinking.
And while I'd love to have my 22B back (but without the ridiculous price tag being asked these days), I'm just as happy to move on to something more modern, at a far more realistic and accessible price.
sr.guiri said:
Audi R8, 10 a penny, run of the mill, every man and his dog within the M25 has one and a little bit shouty. Mr regular with access to PCP, too afraid to stray from the well beaten track of others. Warranty and newness gives him comfort, and if you can't meet a payment, send it back, no bother. An Audi badge gives you a warm feeling, and is respected at the Gastro pub.
Honda NSX. You are MR ICE You know your st about cars.
Just my opinion
Well you're of course entitled to your opinion, but I still fail to see how it is relevant to my post.Honda NSX. You are MR ICE
You know your st about cars.Just my opinion
Derek Chevalier said:
I've not, but my understanding is that the original manual V8 was the purist's choice
https://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/a...
I've not driven the latest one, but having read that article (again! https://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/a...
), it highlights an issue I regurgitate on a regular basis about modern supercars and (more familiar to me) superbikes, and that is that they are just too damned fast for our roads here. They are just so capable and competent, that you have to push them to absolutely ridiculous levels to try get some thrill or joy out of them, and unfortunately, other cars, cyclists, sheep, hikers, etc., are all STILL going the same speed, but you're travelling 20 miles an hour faster in a new model over a previous generation, without actually even feeling it. I use the analogy in particular to modern superbikes (being more able to afford to indulge a 'collection' of fast bikes than fast cars! Haha!), when I replaced my old Ducati 1098S with it's 1199S Panigale successor. The 1098 had zero electronic aids, and only about 165bhp, but it was a joy. When I bought the Pani, it had an extra 30bhp and every single electronic assistant and control going. I tell people about the first day I rode the Pani up my favourite mountain road, just taking it easy as I was still running it in, trying to put miles on the clock so as to get it to it's first service quicker (and thus finally allow the release full revs!). But I remember glancing down at the clock going around one particular bend and it was showing something like 80mph. This instantly shocked me, as only 5 days previous I had gone around the exact same corner on the 1098 at about 65mph, but on the Pani, it felt like I was riding to church. Since then, I've never really enjoyed that bike on the road, and only when I'm really pushing it on the track do I start getting a thrill. So when the new Ducati V4S came out last year, for the first time in 18 years, I did NOT change my old Duke for the new one, as I had completely lost the love of riding modern Superbikes. Since then, I've indulged myself with adding older, analogue bikes to the collection (Ducati 916, Yamaha FZR1000, etc.), and they are an absolute blast. My older cars too are an absolute hoot (Porsche 944 S2 and 205 1.9GTi), where you can even have a laugh just heading to Tesco's for milk! So even though I've not driven the latest R8 (though did enjoy the original a few times), I don't believe it is anything to do with the lack of manual gearbox that makes it's predecessor the preferred choice for the driving 'purist'. I believe it's just down to the fact that you can far more exploit the talents of the original on our roads than the new one, and to really enjoy a car/bike - we need to scare ourselves a little bit, and well, that's just far too difficult to do with the more modern stuff due to their plain, brutal competence!Arsecati said:
I've not driven the latest one, but having read that article (again! ), it highlights an issue I regurgitate on a regular basis about modern supercars and (more familiar to me) superbikes, and that is that they are just too damned fast for our roads here. They are just so capable and competent, that you have to push them to absolutely ridiculous levels to try get some thrill or joy out of them, and unfortunately, other cars, cyclists, sheep, hikers, etc., are all STILL going the same speed, but you're travelling 20 miles an hour faster in a new model over a previous generation, without actually even feeling it. I use the analogy in particular to modern superbikes (being more able to afford to indulge a 'collection' of fast bikes than fast cars! Haha!), when I replaced my old Ducati 1098S with it's 1199S Panigale successor. The 1098 had zero electronic aids, and only about 165bhp, but it was a joy. When I bought the Pani, it had an extra 30bhp and every single electronic assistant and control going. I tell people about the first day I rode the Pani up my favourite mountain road, just taking it easy as I was still running it in, trying to put miles on the clock so as to get it to it's first service quicker (and thus finally allow the release full revs!). But I remember glancing down at the clock going around one particular bend and it was showing something like 80mph. This instantly shocked me, as only 5 days previous I had gone around the exact same corner on the 1098 at about 65mph, but on the Pani, it felt like I was riding to church. Since then, I've never really enjoyed that bike on the road, and only when I'm really pushing it on the track do I start getting a thrill. So when the new Ducati V4S came out last year, for the first time in 18 years, I did NOT change my old Duke for the new one, as I had completely lost the love of riding modern Superbikes. Since then, I've indulged myself with adding older, analogue bikes to the collection (Ducati 916, Yamaha FZR1000, etc.), and they are an absolute blast. My older cars too are an absolute hoot (Porsche 944 S2 and 205 1.9GTi), where you can even have a laugh just heading to Tesco's for milk! So even though I've not driven the latest R8 (though did enjoy the original a few times), I don't believe it is anything to do with the lack of manual gearbox that makes it's predecessor the preferred choice for the driving 'purist'. I believe it's just down to the fact that you can far more exploit the talents of the original on our roads than the new one, and to really enjoy a car/bike - we need to scare ourselves a little bit, and well, that's just far too difficult to do with the more modern stuff due to their plain, brutal competence!
Completely agree on that one. ), it highlights an issue I regurgitate on a regular basis about modern supercars and (more familiar to me) superbikes, and that is that they are just too damned fast for our roads here. They are just so capable and competent, that you have to push them to absolutely ridiculous levels to try get some thrill or joy out of them, and unfortunately, other cars, cyclists, sheep, hikers, etc., are all STILL going the same speed, but you're travelling 20 miles an hour faster in a new model over a previous generation, without actually even feeling it. I use the analogy in particular to modern superbikes (being more able to afford to indulge a 'collection' of fast bikes than fast cars! Haha!), when I replaced my old Ducati 1098S with it's 1199S Panigale successor. The 1098 had zero electronic aids, and only about 165bhp, but it was a joy. When I bought the Pani, it had an extra 30bhp and every single electronic assistant and control going. I tell people about the first day I rode the Pani up my favourite mountain road, just taking it easy as I was still running it in, trying to put miles on the clock so as to get it to it's first service quicker (and thus finally allow the release full revs!). But I remember glancing down at the clock going around one particular bend and it was showing something like 80mph. This instantly shocked me, as only 5 days previous I had gone around the exact same corner on the 1098 at about 65mph, but on the Pani, it felt like I was riding to church. Since then, I've never really enjoyed that bike on the road, and only when I'm really pushing it on the track do I start getting a thrill. So when the new Ducati V4S came out last year, for the first time in 18 years, I did NOT change my old Duke for the new one, as I had completely lost the love of riding modern Superbikes. Since then, I've indulged myself with adding older, analogue bikes to the collection (Ducati 916, Yamaha FZR1000, etc.), and they are an absolute blast. My older cars too are an absolute hoot (Porsche 944 S2 and 205 1.9GTi), where you can even have a laugh just heading to Tesco's for milk! So even though I've not driven the latest R8 (though did enjoy the original a few times), I don't believe it is anything to do with the lack of manual gearbox that makes it's predecessor the preferred choice for the driving 'purist'. I believe it's just down to the fact that you can far more exploit the talents of the original on our roads than the new one, and to really enjoy a car/bike - we need to scare ourselves a little bit, and well, that's just far too difficult to do with the more modern stuff due to their plain, brutal competence!Had the pleasure of having access to all BMW M cars in the mid 90s, just about when the M3 received its first power hike. Even then the cars could not be driven sanely on the road, because their limits have been steps above their ancestors (e36 M3 compared to e30...). It came as a real shock when I was driving a friend's A5 coupe the other day, only the small 2.0 turbo petrol with 245 or so hp, it was so competent and quick, no clue what a performance hatch would be capable today...
I do not think that driver involvement is necessarily less on modern machinery, the main difference is the easier accessibility of performance. Not sure if that is good or bad, only for having limits that are so high that you have to drive on a track to come close to access.
Remember the time you gave that old Mini (mine was that weedy 53 hp cooper) the stick and you really felt that you mastered that piece of tarmac, full on the whole drive and never really above the speed limits?
That may be the difference between oldskool and modern. It felt fast and you had to work for it, although it wasn't that fast.
sidewinder500 said:
Completely agree on that one.
Had the pleasure of having access to all BMW M cars in the mid 90s, just about when the M3 received its first power hike. Even then the cars could not be driven sanely on the road, because their limits have been steps above their ancestors (e36 M3 compared to e30...). It came as a real shock when I was driving a friend's A5 coupe the other day, only the small 2.0 turbo petrol with 245 or so hp, it was so competent and quick, no clue what a performance hatch would be capable today...
I do not think that driver involvement is necessarily less on modern machinery, the main difference is the easier accessibility of performance. Not sure if that is good or bad, only for having limits that are so high that you have to drive on a track to come close to access.
Remember the time you gave that old Mini (mine was that weedy 53 hp cooper) the stick and you really felt that you mastered that piece of tarmac, full on the whole drive and never really above the speed limits?
That may be the difference between oldskool and modern. It felt fast and you had to work for it, although it wasn't that fast.
Perfectly put! Had the pleasure of having access to all BMW M cars in the mid 90s, just about when the M3 received its first power hike. Even then the cars could not be driven sanely on the road, because their limits have been steps above their ancestors (e36 M3 compared to e30...). It came as a real shock when I was driving a friend's A5 coupe the other day, only the small 2.0 turbo petrol with 245 or so hp, it was so competent and quick, no clue what a performance hatch would be capable today...
I do not think that driver involvement is necessarily less on modern machinery, the main difference is the easier accessibility of performance. Not sure if that is good or bad, only for having limits that are so high that you have to drive on a track to come close to access.
Remember the time you gave that old Mini (mine was that weedy 53 hp cooper) the stick and you really felt that you mastered that piece of tarmac, full on the whole drive and never really above the speed limits?
That may be the difference between oldskool and modern. It felt fast and you had to work for it, although it wasn't that fast.
yonex said:
But when manufacturers build something like a GT86 nobody buys one?
Because we are spoiled...Someone mentioned above he prefers high torque cars...
We all want power, luxury, roadholding, racy looks.
We do not want to have wheezy little petrol-non-turboed pseudo 'oldskool' cars like that, that do not even look good (for my eyes at least), we want power all the time.
And -surprise- we got it, with better mpg and all comfort.
Who is to complain...
Ash, yes, the feel, the delicate looks...
To be honest, with all that regulations, that time has gone.
sidewinder500 said:
Because we are spoiled...
Someone mentioned above he prefers high torque cars...
We all want power, luxury, roadholding, racy looks.
We do not want to have wheezy little petrol-non-turboed pseudo 'oldskool' cars like that, that do not even look good (for my eyes at least), we want power all the time.
And -surprise- we got it, with better mpg and all comfort.
Who is to complain...
Ash, yes, the feel, the delicate looks...
To be honest, with all that regulations, that time has gone.
So long as I still have my little 205 GTi, I'm happy as a pig in p00 - plus the fact I don't need an advanced degree in electronic engineering to fix it either!! Haha!!Someone mentioned above he prefers high torque cars...
We all want power, luxury, roadholding, racy looks.
We do not want to have wheezy little petrol-non-turboed pseudo 'oldskool' cars like that, that do not even look good (for my eyes at least), we want power all the time.
And -surprise- we got it, with better mpg and all comfort.
Who is to complain...
Ash, yes, the feel, the delicate looks...
To be honest, with all that regulations, that time has gone.
yonex said:
But when manufacturers build something like a GT86 nobody buys one?
It is a new car, not a forgotten feeling from times gone by.Nobody wants a modern interpretation of a Golf GTI mk1, they want the rattly, tinny made from cardboard version because it looked and felt that way everyone remembered.
Arsecati said:
Derek Chevalier said:
I've not, but my understanding is that the original manual V8 was the purist's choice
https://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/a...
I've not driven the latest one, but having read that article (again! https://www.pistonheads.com/features/ph-features/a...
), it highlights an issue I regurgitate on a regular basis about modern supercars and (more familiar to me) superbikes, and that is that they are just too damned fast for our roads here. They are just so capable and competent, that you have to push them to absolutely ridiculous levels to try get some thrill or joy out of them, and unfortunately, other cars, cyclists, sheep, hikers, etc., are all STILL going the same speed, but you're travelling 20 miles an hour faster in a new model over a previous generation, without actually even feeling it. I use the analogy in particular to modern superbikes (being more able to afford to indulge a 'collection' of fast bikes than fast cars! Haha!), when I replaced my old Ducati 1098S with it's 1199S Panigale successor. The 1098 had zero electronic aids, and only about 165bhp, but it was a joy. When I bought the Pani, it had an extra 30bhp and every single electronic assistant and control going. I tell people about the first day I rode the Pani up my favourite mountain road, just taking it easy as I was still running it in, trying to put miles on the clock so as to get it to it's first service quicker (and thus finally allow the release full revs!). But I remember glancing down at the clock going around one particular bend and it was showing something like 80mph. This instantly shocked me, as only 5 days previous I had gone around the exact same corner on the 1098 at about 65mph, but on the Pani, it felt like I was riding to church. Since then, I've never really enjoyed that bike on the road, and only when I'm really pushing it on the track do I start getting a thrill. So when the new Ducati V4S came out last year, for the first time in 18 years, I did NOT change my old Duke for the new one, as I had completely lost the love of riding modern Superbikes. Since then, I've indulged myself with adding older, analogue bikes to the collection (Ducati 916, Yamaha FZR1000, etc.), and they are an absolute blast. My older cars too are an absolute hoot (Porsche 944 S2 and 205 1.9GTi), where you can even have a laugh just heading to Tesco's for milk! So even though I've not driven the latest R8 (though did enjoy the original a few times), I don't believe it is anything to do with the lack of manual gearbox that makes it's predecessor the preferred choice for the driving 'purist'. I believe it's just down to the fact that you can far more exploit the talents of the original on our roads than the new one, and to really enjoy a car/bike - we need to scare ourselves a little bit, and well, that's just far too difficult to do with the more modern stuff due to their plain, brutal competence!I normally rode Yamaha R1's, and did a load of club racing on them when they first came out (1998+ era). These are analogue machines, and I truly loved them.
However, my last bike was a modified bmw s1000rr, which has the traction control. I remember vividly coming off the Crawley slip road onto the m23 in the pissing rain, with the throttle cracked wide open, crossing the white lines while leant over slightly, and getting a "twitch" from the machine. Speed was, ahem, a tad above what it should have been...
I will tell you this... had I been on the analogue R1, I would have been dead. No if's, but's, or maybe's. Dead.
Now, there is always the argument around "if you know what your machine is capable of, then ride within its limits", and I totally get that.
But there are moments where things happen that cant be anticipated. As you mentioned yourself above, things like people walking out in front of you, perhaps diesel spills, gravel, etc, where the riding aids, may just save your life, and sometimes they'll do it faster than you can blink. I know with my example above, the bike sorted it, and remained stable allowing me to continue without issue before it had even registered.
Driver aids 1, grim reaper 0.
yonex said:
But when manufacturers build something like a GT86 nobody buys one?
I think the contemporary Meganes were where my money would've gonehttps://www.evo.co.uk/renault/megane-coupe/14126/s...
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