RE: VW ID.R breaks outright Goodwood record
Discussion
TobyTR said:
cidered77 said:
if they were still V10s - it would be all customer cars, few/no manufacturers, save Ferrari, who would be totally dominant - and we would complain that it isn't exciting or glamorous enough without the big boys involved anymore. Or - exactly as LMP1 has become since the glory years of a few years back.
Merc, Renault, Honda.... none of them would put squillions into F1 without some kind of road relevance. It was a great time (crap racing mostly with the V10s, but we gloss over that), but it was of it's time.
Motorsport should be always about pushing the boundaries of technology and whilst i loved the noise, i also love how much racing can demonstrate what technology can do....more power and half the fuel i personally find amazing.
The current (expensive) hybrid engine regs are actually holding back more manufacturers from being in F1 - Williams budget this year is 160 million, to be by far the slowest on the grid. Contrast that to Minardi having a similarly fast car in 2004 on a 40 million budget. Brundle nailed it when he said they need a cheaper, simpler hybrid V10 or V12 - that's the way supercar manufacturers are going. That would entice manufacturers back in F1 like BMW and Toyota etc.Merc, Renault, Honda.... none of them would put squillions into F1 without some kind of road relevance. It was a great time (crap racing mostly with the V10s, but we gloss over that), but it was of it's time.
Motorsport should be always about pushing the boundaries of technology and whilst i loved the noise, i also love how much racing can demonstrate what technology can do....more power and half the fuel i personally find amazing.
V10s and V12s were never road-relevant for the likes of Renault, Ford etc in the 90s, unless you count that one-off Espace with an F1 engine in it...
On the subject of this hill-climb, Heikki Kovalainen recently confirmed on twitter he ran a low 39 second lap up the hill at 2006 Goodwood FOS, in a 2005 Renault V10 F1 car - but for whatever reason the lap wasn't allowed to count as official
A suitably set-up Ferrari F2004 would possibly dip into the high 38sec... now that would be spectacular viewing, but Goodwood won't allow it because it doesn't fit in with their agenda.
Edited by TobyTR on Wednesday 10th July 00:42
In the 90s and earlier marketing strategy including sticking a brand on the side of a racing car and hoping it helps you sell stuff. and everyone watches the racing on sundays because there was nothing else on, and no smart phones or Netflix to distract us.
Now if i want to advertise specifically to 17-25 year old males in the west berkshire area who like trackdays and pagani zondas, i can hit a few thousand of them for probably 20 quid to facebook, and i can also see exactly how many saw the add, engaged with it, and then visited my online store.
So it's a different world now, and no matter what the internet thinks. manufacturers won't sink millions into something that is completely alien to what they sell. The evidence is literally in front of us - Renault demanding a move from V8s to keep involved, Honda seeing the new formula as a reason to get involved again; Audi recently confirming they will not compete in the new WEC rules because they don't have a hypercar product.
Obsessing about the past and not noticing the absolutely colossal changes the world has gone through in the last 20 years i find genuinely baffling. If F1 were all dallara chassis, spec engines, privateer teams, and low budgets - firstly it wouldn't be F1, and secondly - people wouldn't watch it! Nobody watches F2, relatively. Crowds have been down at Le Mans since Porsche stopped making it a competition....
I agree costs are crazy out of control - but ironically, changing to an anachronistic engine formula now would just ramp them further. Engine specs being frozen means the cost is "just" supply; which is a lot less than development + supply. Hence they will stay as they are even for the new rules.
F1 has a load of problems today, and if Liberty and Ross Brawn don't nail it for 2021 it may not recover- but as an eternal optimist i have some faith they'll crack it. But they won't do it by going backwards to old tech....
big_rob_sydney said:
CABC said:
+1
once people have some cash they'll frequently have a garage along the lines of-
Track special
old classic
hot hatch
RR or Tesla
Do you have a stable with 4 types of horses? I don't. I don't give a rats arse about outdated modes of transport. And while I'm sure there are some folks who do, they would be an extreme minority. That will be you at some point.once people have some cash they'll frequently have a garage along the lines of-
Track special
old classic
hot hatch
RR or Tesla
I look forward, and when the time and product is right i'll go EV for the main car and not look back - already looking at an i8 as a daily in fact (so cheap now, probably because the Internet believes their batteries explode after 5 years!).
But of course in the fantasy multicar garage there will be all the wonderful machines we grew up with. Enthusiasts will continue to be enthusiasts for decades until - probably in our lifetime - it just isn't practical to use self-driven cars on the road anymore, so they're relegated to museums, racetracks, or just disappear.
Because demand for classic cars isn't realistically going to increase from younger generations but the supply remains relatively static prices will come down too - for the next couple of decades it'll be easier to acquire cool old cars whilst our cool new cars do the driving for us.
I am all for EV becoming more mainstream, and the infrastructure improving to cope.
But the fake news neanderthals here and on every other internet based medium need to get over some common misconceptions-
You dont need to charge it everyday - my commute to work is a 30 mile round trip of mostly B-roads, my 2002 diesel averages 42mpg and im putting 30 litres in every ten days or so. If i had an ev i'd need to charge it in my driveway overnight while i sleep every four days or so at a cost of pennies.
Petrol and Diesel cars are not going to be banned/crushed from 2040 - once we reach 2040 (or earlier depending on where you read) Manufacturers will no longer be able to make/sell ICE. But there's nothing stopping the millions of second hand cars from continuing to run for decades after, providing the car tax and fuel prices dont get too steep. Fuel supplies running out is a whole other kettle of fish! But at least if all new cars are electric, and lots of normal people switch, it leaves more fuel for the remaining classics!
But the fake news neanderthals here and on every other internet based medium need to get over some common misconceptions-
You dont need to charge it everyday - my commute to work is a 30 mile round trip of mostly B-roads, my 2002 diesel averages 42mpg and im putting 30 litres in every ten days or so. If i had an ev i'd need to charge it in my driveway overnight while i sleep every four days or so at a cost of pennies.
Petrol and Diesel cars are not going to be banned/crushed from 2040 - once we reach 2040 (or earlier depending on where you read) Manufacturers will no longer be able to make/sell ICE. But there's nothing stopping the millions of second hand cars from continuing to run for decades after, providing the car tax and fuel prices dont get too steep. Fuel supplies running out is a whole other kettle of fish! But at least if all new cars are electric, and lots of normal people switch, it leaves more fuel for the remaining classics!
cidered77 said:
TobyTR said:
cidered77 said:
if they were still V10s - it would be all customer cars, few/no manufacturers, save Ferrari, who would be totally dominant - and we would complain that it isn't exciting or glamorous enough without the big boys involved anymore. Or - exactly as LMP1 has become since the glory years of a few years back.
Merc, Renault, Honda.... none of them would put squillions into F1 without some kind of road relevance. It was a great time (crap racing mostly with the V10s, but we gloss over that), but it was of it's time.
Motorsport should be always about pushing the boundaries of technology and whilst i loved the noise, i also love how much racing can demonstrate what technology can do....more power and half the fuel i personally find amazing.
The current (expensive) hybrid engine regs are actually holding back more manufacturers from being in F1 - Williams budget this year is 160 million, to be by far the slowest on the grid. Contrast that to Minardi having a similarly fast car in 2004 on a 40 million budget. Brundle nailed it when he said they need a cheaper, simpler hybrid V10 or V12 - that's the way supercar manufacturers are going. That would entice manufacturers back in F1 like BMW and Toyota etc.Merc, Renault, Honda.... none of them would put squillions into F1 without some kind of road relevance. It was a great time (crap racing mostly with the V10s, but we gloss over that), but it was of it's time.
Motorsport should be always about pushing the boundaries of technology and whilst i loved the noise, i also love how much racing can demonstrate what technology can do....more power and half the fuel i personally find amazing.
V10s and V12s were never road-relevant for the likes of Renault, Ford etc in the 90s, unless you count that one-off Espace with an F1 engine in it...
On the subject of this hill-climb, Heikki Kovalainen recently confirmed on twitter he ran a low 39 second lap up the hill at 2006 Goodwood FOS, in a 2005 Renault V10 F1 car - but for whatever reason the lap wasn't allowed to count as official
A suitably set-up Ferrari F2004 would possibly dip into the high 38sec... now that would be spectacular viewing, but Goodwood won't allow it because it doesn't fit in with their agenda.
Edited by TobyTR on Wednesday 10th July 00:42
In the 90s and earlier marketing strategy including sticking a brand on the side of a racing car and hoping it helps you sell stuff. and everyone watches the racing on sundays because there was nothing else on, and no smart phones or Netflix to distract us.
Now if i want to advertise specifically to 17-25 year old males in the west berkshire area who like trackdays and pagani zondas, i can hit a few thousand of them for probably 20 quid to facebook, and i can also see exactly how many saw the add, engaged with it, and then visited my online store.
So it's a different world now, and no matter what the internet thinks. manufacturers won't sink millions into something that is completely alien to what they sell. The evidence is literally in front of us - Renault demanding a move from V8s to keep involved, Honda seeing the new formula as a reason to get involved again; Audi recently confirming they will not compete in the new WEC rules because they don't have a hypercar product.
Obsessing about the past and not noticing the absolutely colossal changes the world has gone through in the last 20 years i find genuinely baffling. If F1 were all dallara chassis, spec engines, privateer teams, and low budgets - firstly it wouldn't be F1, and secondly - people wouldn't watch it! Nobody watches F2, relatively. Crowds have been down at Le Mans since Porsche stopped making it a competition....
I agree costs are crazy out of control - but ironically, changing to an anachronistic engine formula now would just ramp them further. Engine specs being frozen means the cost is "just" supply; which is a lot less than development + supply. Hence they will stay as they are even for the new rules.
F1 has a load of problems today, and if Liberty and Ross Brawn don't nail it for 2021 it may not recover- but as an eternal optimist i have some faith they'll crack it. But they won't do it by going backwards to old tech....
Which is why the answer is - as Brundle has said - hybrid V10s or V12s that are cheaper and simpler than the current engines. Still relevant, still new/current tech, and it will bring back an exciting emotional sounds that many many F1 fans moan about.
Edited by TobyTR on Wednesday 10th July 22:34
ryan1684 said:
I am all for EV becoming more mainstream, and the infrastructure improving to cope.
But the fake news neanderthals here and on every other internet based medium need to get over some common misconceptions-
You dont need to charge it everyday - my commute to work is a 30 mile round trip of mostly B-roads, my 2002 diesel averages 42mpg and im putting 30 litres in every ten days or so. If i had an ev i'd need to charge it in my driveway overnight while i sleep every four days or so at a cost of pennies.
Petrol and Diesel cars are not going to be banned/crushed from 2040 - once we reach 2040 (or earlier depending on where you read) Manufacturers will no longer be able to make/sell ICE. But there's nothing stopping the millions of second hand cars from continuing to run for decades after, providing the car tax and fuel prices dont get too steep. Fuel supplies running out is a whole other kettle of fish! But at least if all new cars are electric, and lots of normal people switch, it leaves more fuel for the remaining classics!
I think it'll be autonomous driving that is a bigger purge of old tech cars than pure regulation. But the fake news neanderthals here and on every other internet based medium need to get over some common misconceptions-
You dont need to charge it everyday - my commute to work is a 30 mile round trip of mostly B-roads, my 2002 diesel averages 42mpg and im putting 30 litres in every ten days or so. If i had an ev i'd need to charge it in my driveway overnight while i sleep every four days or so at a cost of pennies.
Petrol and Diesel cars are not going to be banned/crushed from 2040 - once we reach 2040 (or earlier depending on where you read) Manufacturers will no longer be able to make/sell ICE. But there's nothing stopping the millions of second hand cars from continuing to run for decades after, providing the car tax and fuel prices dont get too steep. Fuel supplies running out is a whole other kettle of fish! But at least if all new cars are electric, and lots of normal people switch, it leaves more fuel for the remaining classics!
You can foresee say the M4 having the 3rd lane as "autonomous only", which would be easily enforceable considering every car on it will have 10 cameras! instant 6 points for straying. and then "i'll never let a computer do the driving for me" crowd will see one lane moving in perfect harmony at 100mph+ whilst they crawl along, and they'll switch. And then more demand means its two lanes, and then it's all lanes except off peak, and then it's only at night... and then in parallel cities do the same. I can absolutely foresee then a world where you can own a car you drive yourself, but you can only drive at particular times or zones. Sounds horrible for the enthusiast but as "transport" it's objectively better in every way. Plus you won't own your car either - you'll just subscribe per mile, and it'll rock up in the morning.
If that sounds like science fiction then consider how much of a nutter i would have sounded 20 years ago if i said the internet thing that you dialed up to after getting your Dixons subscription was going to turn our high streets into back to back pound and charity shops, or that rather than email mailing lists, we would organise into tribes on something called "social media", which would in 10 years go from poking people to deciding world leaders, causing revolutions, and deciding referendums
TobyTR said:
Who said anything about going back to old tech, dallara chassis and spec engines?
Which is why the answer is - as Brundle has said - hybrid V10s or V12s that are cheaper and simpler than the current engines. Still relevant, still new/current tech, and it will bring back an exciting emotional sounds that many many F1 fans moan about.
my point is that without manufacturer involvement that is the inevitable conclusion to it all... privateer teams who need to buy off the shelf parts to compete to a much lower budget, and lower revenues because without the big boys, people will turn off even more than today. You would go to Multimatic, Dallara for your chassis; you don't have the money to go alone. Which is why the answer is - as Brundle has said - hybrid V10s or V12s that are cheaper and simpler than the current engines. Still relevant, still new/current tech, and it will bring back an exciting emotional sounds that many many F1 fans moan about.
Edited by TobyTR on Wednesday 10th July 22:34
hybrid V12s would be cool - but relevant only for Ferrari as a product, so i wonder if Merc, Renault and Honda would carry on. Let alone attract new OEMs. So if you made that change, teams would fall back to race engine builders at lower budgets.
Besides - cheaper to leave them as they are, as they will for 2021-2024 at least.
cidered77 said:
my point is that without manufacturer involvement that is the inevitable conclusion to it all... privateer teams who need to buy off the shelf parts to compete to a much lower budget, and lower revenues because without the big boys, people will turn off even more than today. You would go to Multimatic, Dallara for your chassis; you don't have the money to go alone.
hybrid V12s would be cool - but relevant only for Ferrari as a product, so i wonder if Merc, Renault and Honda would carry on. Let alone attract new OEMs. So if you made that change, teams would fall back to race engine builders at lower budgets.
Besides - cheaper to leave them as they are, as they will for 2021-2024 at least.
But when were V8s, V10s and V12 engines ever relevant in the past for Renault, Honda etc? OEMs are reluctant to spend 160-250 million per year to just be near the back of the gridhybrid V12s would be cool - but relevant only for Ferrari as a product, so i wonder if Merc, Renault and Honda would carry on. Let alone attract new OEMs. So if you made that change, teams would fall back to race engine builders at lower budgets.
Besides - cheaper to leave them as they are, as they will for 2021-2024 at least.
TobyTR said:
But when were V8s, V10s and V12 engines ever relevant in the past for Renault, Honda etc? OEMs are reluctant to spend 160-250 million per year to just be near the back of the grid
i answered that a few posts above! they weren't- but that was a very very different time.... you cannot compare investment decisions for marketing in 2019 with the 1990s..ashridge911 said:
Matter of interest how much juice was left in the batteries
The battery pack was halved in size for the GWood run, because any smaller than that and the motors would not be able to pull peak power from them, which for this run was a significantly higher figure because the run was so short and the system was not thermally limited.That means that given a few mins for cooling down, the car could have run around 5 times up the hill before needing recharging, although there would have been a slight (~10%) performance deficit to doing that on the last few runs due to a lower average system voltage.
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