RE: Mini Electric is here!
Discussion
The Moose said:
Ryvita said:
But to me the unresolved question about electric cars is how they will perform once shagged and cheap. Will the batteries be OK? Will it be a case of them being written off because of the battery replacement costs? Or will they just be still running around but with a reduced range capacity...?
I think that’s been addressed with the Prius and the like - companies are out there that recondition battery packs for not huge sums of money.Indeed in places like California where BEV's have been used for a while these places exist. Check out Rich Rebuilds on youtube, he repairs and rebuilds Tesla's or EV West who use parts from Scrap tesla's to give classic cars a new life.
I do wonder if a lot of people have first hand experience of living with an electric vehicle?
I took the plunge and changed my company car for one at the start of the tax year, number of factors swayed my decision, rising BIK on ICE vehicles being the main factor. I drive an i3s and when I first got it I think I spent the first week driving round staring at the battery percentage. 3 months in I really enjoy it, I have a 30 mile round trip commute and thankfully with a charging point in work I'm able to plug it in twice a week and it does me fine.
Back to the original point though, i think BEVs at the moment are at a price point where they most benefit company car users and ones that don't do major miles. The range can be an issue but more importantly we just don't have the infrastructure to handle a mass move towards BEVs. The MINI will make it more accessible to the mass market and it's looks aren't quite as subjective as some of the current offerings. I would say it's making it more accessible to those not using them as company cars as the majority of MINI users probably will do lower mileage. Are BEVs the future? Probably, yes, but the infrastructure is so poor for recharging at the moment that it's going to take a great deal of money and time to get it to where it needs to be.
I took the plunge and changed my company car for one at the start of the tax year, number of factors swayed my decision, rising BIK on ICE vehicles being the main factor. I drive an i3s and when I first got it I think I spent the first week driving round staring at the battery percentage. 3 months in I really enjoy it, I have a 30 mile round trip commute and thankfully with a charging point in work I'm able to plug it in twice a week and it does me fine.
Back to the original point though, i think BEVs at the moment are at a price point where they most benefit company car users and ones that don't do major miles. The range can be an issue but more importantly we just don't have the infrastructure to handle a mass move towards BEVs. The MINI will make it more accessible to the mass market and it's looks aren't quite as subjective as some of the current offerings. I would say it's making it more accessible to those not using them as company cars as the majority of MINI users probably will do lower mileage. Are BEVs the future? Probably, yes, but the infrastructure is so poor for recharging at the moment that it's going to take a great deal of money and time to get it to where it needs to be.
Fastdruid said:
Turbobanana said:
Surely nobody in their right mind would expect to charge a car fully using solar alone (at least, not that could be fitted to a car). I believe the original point was that solar could be a useful top-up for a car left parked outside. That said, where I work, all the EV spaces are in a covered car park...
Still not worth it for the cost. You have to haul round the panels, the inverters and other gubbens that would mean that you would see a range hit but lets assume we don't.
Doing some more maths assuming that the charge is linear, so 250Wh per mile, which means in the middle of summer you'd get ~15Mi extra range per day down to ~4Mi in winter (probably less due to wanting the heater on).
So, 3808Wh per day maximum at the height of summer, if you keep the car for 4 years that is ~5559kWh (and you wouldn't get anywhere near that).
If you charge it from the mains however the average cost per kWh is 14.37p, so to get the same amount of energy from the panels it would cost you ~£800 (over 4 years) and lets not forget you would have to pay the extra for the panels. Lets assume they're roughly similar to household panels and call it 2k extra cost. So 10 years to break even.
You can't rely on it at any point (it may rain all day) so you couldn't use it to extend range on any kind of regular use (unless again doing very short trips).
So it just doesn't make any kind of sense, not financially, not in range and it would be ~6 times slower than charging by the slowest mains cable. You would be far better off spending the same amount on Solar Panels for your house and charging from the mains.
Unless you did do ~4Mi/day at which point it would probably never need charging!
Could you please add a small windmill into the equation. I think you will be surprised by the result !
Doesnt have to be a windmill as such but a channel to a internal turbine etc etc. small detailsBloodNinja said:
A mis-comparison indeed, but when you could pick up a 2015/2016 Golf R for the £17K you calculated, or a 120 odd mile range Mini, it's a no contest in my opinion.
All you need to do is hope that everyone doesn't follow your example, as buying used might become difficult if people stop buying new 
SOL111 said:
Home charging is very convenient.
This is one of the biggest issues with plug-in cars in my view. I just can't see how they're going to get around it if they want mass take-up, given that, for many households, home charging isn't going to be convenient at all.It would be interesting to know what percentage of cars are parked on the street. It's going to impact a lot of people I suspect.
Nigel_O said:
Yes, I realise I'm comparing apples & pears, but the point I was making is that if I have four grand to spend, I have a choice - initial payment on a PCH, followed by £299pm for four years, or four grand on a stylish but leggy semi-shed. This is a choice faced by many people that don't have the cash to splurge on a brand new car (or do have the cash, but choose not to spend it...)
The Yorkshireman in me couldn't stomach spending more than £18,000 over four years and having no car to show for it at the end, when the alternative is to spend less (a LOT less) and actually still own the car.
TBH, I quite fancy the idea of an electric car - my commute is 20 miles round trip, so it makes a lot of sense. What I can't bring myself to do is spend more money having an electric car on the drive than I would with a ten year old Alfa. Add in the fact that if I want to drive to Wales, or London, or anywhere more than 50 mile away, I can do so without worry.
Electric cars will become mainstream, probably in my own lifetime (I'm 57) and definitely in my children's lifetime, but they aren't quite there yet. Perhaps "mainstream" for many people means when they can be picked up relatively cheaply on the secondhand market. Certainly, if I could find a semi-desirable electric car for roughly the same budget as an ICE car, I would seriously consider it. Vauxhall Ampera is probably getting the closest (I'm not interested in the smaller stuff like Leaf, Zoe etc)
More and more people are willing to pay that monthly amount though, even those on relatively low incomes. We are also possibly going to see a shift in ownership habits, where people lease cars, maybe even as they need them, rather than having one all the time.The Yorkshireman in me couldn't stomach spending more than £18,000 over four years and having no car to show for it at the end, when the alternative is to spend less (a LOT less) and actually still own the car.
TBH, I quite fancy the idea of an electric car - my commute is 20 miles round trip, so it makes a lot of sense. What I can't bring myself to do is spend more money having an electric car on the drive than I would with a ten year old Alfa. Add in the fact that if I want to drive to Wales, or London, or anywhere more than 50 mile away, I can do so without worry.
Electric cars will become mainstream, probably in my own lifetime (I'm 57) and definitely in my children's lifetime, but they aren't quite there yet. Perhaps "mainstream" for many people means when they can be picked up relatively cheaply on the secondhand market. Certainly, if I could find a semi-desirable electric car for roughly the same budget as an ICE car, I would seriously consider it. Vauxhall Ampera is probably getting the closest (I'm not interested in the smaller stuff like Leaf, Zoe etc)
EVs will of course trickle down to the used market as they become more mainstream and take-up improves, which will largely alleviate the problem of affordability for those who don't wish to buy new.
I fear the bigger problem might be in 10 or 20 years, when there is some revelation about some harmful aspect of EVs. While you can argue the benefits over fossil fuel-powered vehicles, making batteries still requires us to dig stuff up from under the ground, so we may yet face some questions about sustainability. Can you imagine, all the drama about diesels being the root of all evil, being repeated for battery-powered cars? It wouldn't surprise me at all if it happens. I wonder what we'll do then?
Fastdruid said:
Still not worth it for the cost.
You have to haul round the panels, the inverters and other gubbens that would mean that you would see a range hit but lets assume we don't.
Doing some more maths assuming that the charge is linear, so 250Wh per mile, which means in the middle of summer you'd get ~15Mi extra range per day down to ~4Mi in winter (probably less due to wanting the heater on).
So, 3808Wh per day maximum at the height of summer, if you keep the car for 4 years that is ~5559kWh (and you wouldn't get anywhere near that).
If you charge it from the mains however the average cost per kWh is 14.37p, so to get the same amount of energy from the panels it would cost you ~£800 (over 4 years) and lets not forget you would have to pay the extra for the panels. Lets assume they're roughly similar to household panels and call it 2k extra cost. So 10 years to break even.
You can't rely on it at any point (it may rain all day) so you couldn't use it to extend range on any kind of regular use (unless again doing very short trips).
So it just doesn't make any kind of sense, not financially, not in range and it would be ~6 times slower than charging by the slowest mains cable. You would be far better off spending the same amount on Solar Panels for your house and charging from the mains.
Unless you did do ~4Mi/day at which point it would probably never need charging!
It is an interesting point, I didnt think panels would provide anywhere near that but most cars are stood still a lot of the time, a lot of that time its dark but certainly, in countries with better climates than ours it does sound like PV's could add meaningful range if the car is in daylight.You have to haul round the panels, the inverters and other gubbens that would mean that you would see a range hit but lets assume we don't.
Doing some more maths assuming that the charge is linear, so 250Wh per mile, which means in the middle of summer you'd get ~15Mi extra range per day down to ~4Mi in winter (probably less due to wanting the heater on).
So, 3808Wh per day maximum at the height of summer, if you keep the car for 4 years that is ~5559kWh (and you wouldn't get anywhere near that).
If you charge it from the mains however the average cost per kWh is 14.37p, so to get the same amount of energy from the panels it would cost you ~£800 (over 4 years) and lets not forget you would have to pay the extra for the panels. Lets assume they're roughly similar to household panels and call it 2k extra cost. So 10 years to break even.
You can't rely on it at any point (it may rain all day) so you couldn't use it to extend range on any kind of regular use (unless again doing very short trips).
So it just doesn't make any kind of sense, not financially, not in range and it would be ~6 times slower than charging by the slowest mains cable. You would be far better off spending the same amount on Solar Panels for your house and charging from the mains.
Unless you did do ~4Mi/day at which point it would probably never need charging!
There must be more to it than that, there just seems something so elegant about the car charging from sunlight, all the time it has access to it.
Go in work on a sunny day with 60 miles remaining and come out and have seventy odd, would take the edge off the range thing btu I cant help thinking that if it was worth doing, they would have already, we have cars that stop the engine in traffic which always seems like a marginal benefit but the manufacturers did that.
J4CKO said:
It is an interesting point, I didnt think panels would provide anywhere near that but most cars are stood still a lot of the time, a lot of that time its dark but certainly, in countries with better climates than ours it does sound like PV's could add meaningful range if the car is in daylight.
There must be more to it than that, there just seems something so elegant about the car charging from sunlight, all the time it has access to it.
Go in work on a sunny day with 60 miles remaining and come out and have seventy odd, would take the edge off the range thing btu I cant help thinking that if it was worth doing, they would have already, we have cars that stop the engine in traffic which always seems like a marginal benefit but the manufacturers did that.
I can’t see there being enough area on a car to make any real difference at all. And the cost would be huge. There must be more to it than that, there just seems something so elegant about the car charging from sunlight, all the time it has access to it.
Go in work on a sunny day with 60 miles remaining and come out and have seventy odd, would take the edge off the range thing btu I cant help thinking that if it was worth doing, they would have already, we have cars that stop the engine in traffic which always seems like a marginal benefit but the manufacturers did that.
Has to be more mileage in cover the roof at home in panels than a tiny car roof?
Once EVs are cheap enough we’ll probably have loads of PH threads complaining about neighbours who have covered the whole garden and roof in s
te looking solar panels and bolted 400 Ebay wind generators to the outside walls, all running power down a cable that crosses two pavements to the owner’s van which he parks outside someone else’s house. 
Solar does make sense, there are a number of startups and even vw and toyota are starting on this. You need a roof, you need a bonnet...its not really extra weight. Lets try to remember these cars weigh 1500-2500 kgs....a few solar panels are not the issue.
Lots of people do 20-30 miles a day. Solar, even in uk could almost fulfill this during summer months.... "so you mean i only get to drive for free for 4-6 months of year..."..... hardly "not" worth it.
Lots of people do 20-30 miles a day. Solar, even in uk could almost fulfill this during summer months.... "so you mean i only get to drive for free for 4-6 months of year..."..... hardly "not" worth it.
MrGeoff said:
I do wonder if a lot of people have first hand experience of living with an electric vehicle?
I took the plunge and changed my company car for one at the start of the tax year, number of factors swayed my decision, rising BIK on ICE vehicles being the main factor. I drive an i3s and when I first got it I think I spent the first week driving round staring at the battery percentage. 3 months in I really enjoy it, I have a 30 mile round trip commute and thankfully with a charging point in work I'm able to plug it in twice a week and it does me fine.
Back to the original point though, i think BEVs at the moment are at a price point where they most benefit company car users and ones that don't do major miles. The range can be an issue but more importantly we just don't have the infrastructure to handle a mass move towards BEVs. The MINI will make it more accessible to the mass market and it's looks aren't quite as subjective as some of the current offerings. I would say it's making it more accessible to those not using them as company cars as the majority of MINI users probably will do lower mileage. Are BEVs the future? Probably, yes, but the infrastructure is so poor for recharging at the moment that it's going to take a great deal of money and time to get it to where it needs to be.
However, there are usually more available EV charging points than petrol pumps on major arterial route service stations? I'd argue with infrastructure, supply is still ahead of demand?I took the plunge and changed my company car for one at the start of the tax year, number of factors swayed my decision, rising BIK on ICE vehicles being the main factor. I drive an i3s and when I first got it I think I spent the first week driving round staring at the battery percentage. 3 months in I really enjoy it, I have a 30 mile round trip commute and thankfully with a charging point in work I'm able to plug it in twice a week and it does me fine.
Back to the original point though, i think BEVs at the moment are at a price point where they most benefit company car users and ones that don't do major miles. The range can be an issue but more importantly we just don't have the infrastructure to handle a mass move towards BEVs. The MINI will make it more accessible to the mass market and it's looks aren't quite as subjective as some of the current offerings. I would say it's making it more accessible to those not using them as company cars as the majority of MINI users probably will do lower mileage. Are BEVs the future? Probably, yes, but the infrastructure is so poor for recharging at the moment that it's going to take a great deal of money and time to get it to where it needs to be.
cowboyengineer said:
T-195 said:
OK, so why do you think loads of people will spend 7 Grand more than a normal Cooper. With better residuals and none of the inconveniences of BEV ownership.
It will save me £100 a week on fuelAnd then there is social responsibility.
Wardy78 said:
And more on tax. Exponentially on BiK if relevant. And on Congestion Charge(s).
And then there is social responsibility.
Yup I forgot about that, I live in London but don't really use the congestion charge, but I could buy it through my company and write off the full value in the first year then pay very little bik. Save a bit on car tax. And then there is social responsibility.
Also I like electric cars. won't replace my gt3 but will replace my daily.
fushion julz said:
Something like this would be ideal for me as a commuter car...(I do 20 miles each way and there are charging points at work).
However, every time I look at any BEV I find a) it is way too expensive when b) it could only ever be a second/third car. I have a caravan and a boat, so require a vehicle able to tow those.
I also doubt that they are as "green" as advertised...The battery packs are consumables and will likely only last 6-8 years. Unlike a 6 year old carbon consuming vehicle, it would be nigh on impossible to salvage a propulsion device from crashed/time-expired car....
Most decent EV's are projecting the battery packs to outlast the car quite comfortably so it's a non issue. In fact BMW guarantee the battery for 8 years and it is performing much better than they anticipated.However, every time I look at any BEV I find a) it is way too expensive when b) it could only ever be a second/third car. I have a caravan and a boat, so require a vehicle able to tow those.
I also doubt that they are as "green" as advertised...The battery packs are consumables and will likely only last 6-8 years. Unlike a 6 year old carbon consuming vehicle, it would be nigh on impossible to salvage a propulsion device from crashed/time-expired car....
It would be interesting to see the average mileage on scrapped cars over the last 10 years
w824gb3 said:
I suppose you need to add the cost of getting an 11kw charging point put on your drive?
My rough guess is it costs about £5 on the elecy bill for a full charge? So a lot cheaper than petrol/derv until the gov starts taxing it?
11kw/h not likely on a home charger, will be 7kw/h.My rough guess is it costs about £5 on the elecy bill for a full charge? So a lot cheaper than petrol/derv until the gov starts taxing it?
I have original i3 and at 12p per kw it costs me £2 to charge it. This will be double the size of mine so about £4 from flat. You can get rates a lot lower than this though if you want to play the game. Yes significantly cheaper to run than even a 60 mpg diesel.
My take on it - at £25k they won't be able to make enough of them - will be a huge success.
J4CKO said:
Go in work on a sunny day with 60 miles remaining and come out and have seventy odd, would take the edge off the range thing btu I cant help thinking that if it was worth doing, they would have already, we have cars that stop the engine in traffic which always seems like a marginal benefit but the manufacturers did that.
The trouble is that its not something you could rely on as it might be overcast. Same as you'd have to leave a decent margin for cold weather/battery degradation over time. If you can't rely on it then it's very expensive for no real benefit.
Stop/Start makes a few mpg difference (and hence CO2 ratings) to the NEDC tests as 1/2 the time the car is stationary, it makes little difference in the really real world, especially when people instinctively turn it off as they don't like it!
I'm not sure how much difference stop/start will make with WLTP but I noticed with interest from looking at the Skoda Superb that under WLTP the (petrol) manual is more economic than the automatic it used to be the other way round.
jonnyfive said:
Solar does make sense, there are a number of startups and even vw and toyota are starting on this. You need a roof, you need a bonnet...its not really extra weight. Lets try to remember these cars weigh 1500-2500 kgs....a few solar panels are not the issue.
Lots of people do 20-30 miles a day. Solar, even in uk could almost fulfill this during summer months.... "so you mean i only get to drive for free for 4-6 months of year..."..... hardly "not" worth it.
It's a lovely idea but you cannot *rely* on it which brings a whole new type of range anxiety..."Will it be sunny enough to get enough charge to get home" Lots of people do 20-30 miles a day. Solar, even in uk could almost fulfill this during summer months.... "so you mean i only get to drive for free for 4-6 months of year..."..... hardly "not" worth it.
If you have to plug in anyway it's not worth the extra cost.
SOL111 said:
Probably because people are worried about diesel and petrol is less efficient. EV will pay back relatively quickly.
Home charging is very convenient.
BIK is dropping to 0% compared to at least 20% for ICE cars.
Business purchase tax benefits.
Many will prefer the serenity of an EV to thrashing a 1.5 engine to achieve the same levels of performance.
Congestion charges are not an issue and free/low cost parking for some.
Lower maintenance costs.
There are many reasons that you might not agree with but many will. Just because you have a negative view and can't look at all sides, it doesn't make an EV like this any less appealing.
I'm not a fan of mini's but this is an attractive package for £24k.
This.Home charging is very convenient.
BIK is dropping to 0% compared to at least 20% for ICE cars.
Business purchase tax benefits.
Many will prefer the serenity of an EV to thrashing a 1.5 engine to achieve the same levels of performance.
Congestion charges are not an issue and free/low cost parking for some.
Lower maintenance costs.
There are many reasons that you might not agree with but many will. Just because you have a negative view and can't look at all sides, it doesn't make an EV like this any less appealing.
I'm not a fan of mini's but this is an attractive package for £24k.
As a company car driver, EV’s are currently a no brainier. Chap at work is looking at en e Golf. As a lower rate tax payer the BIK is £100 for the year as of March 2020. Factor in the loss of his car allowance and he’s looking at £190 all in. Way cheaper than something like a 116d, his other option.
For many people they do make sense. My other half is a prime candidate for one; she does about 12 miles a day, so would only need to charge rarely. We have a drive which is right where our electricity comes in, so a charging point is easy to sort.
This MINI actually looks pretty interesting; it’s nowt wacky like an i3 (which I happen to really like), range is fine as a second car and the cost isn’t horrendous like the i3. The depreciation can’t be any worse than a normal MINI judging by my other half’s F56 which was worth about 2p after three years.
Court_S said:
This.
As a company car driver, EV’s are currently a no brainier. Chap at work is looking at en e Golf. As a lower rate tax payer the BIK is £100 for the year as of March 2020. Factor in the loss of his car allowance and he’s looking at £190 all in. Way cheaper than something like a 116d, his other option.
For many people they do make sense. My other half is a prime candidate for one; she does about 12 miles a day, so would only need to charge rarely. We have a drive which is right where our electricity comes in, so a charging point is easy to sort.
This MINI actually looks pretty interesting; it’s nowt wacky like an i3 (which I happen to really like), range is fine as a second car and the cost isn’t horrendous like the i3. The depreciation can’t be any worse than a normal MINI judging by my other half’s F56 which was worth about 2p after three years.
Personally I love my i3 but you pay dearly for the quirkiness and development.As a company car driver, EV’s are currently a no brainier. Chap at work is looking at en e Golf. As a lower rate tax payer the BIK is £100 for the year as of March 2020. Factor in the loss of his car allowance and he’s looking at £190 all in. Way cheaper than something like a 116d, his other option.
For many people they do make sense. My other half is a prime candidate for one; she does about 12 miles a day, so would only need to charge rarely. We have a drive which is right where our electricity comes in, so a charging point is easy to sort.
This MINI actually looks pretty interesting; it’s nowt wacky like an i3 (which I happen to really like), range is fine as a second car and the cost isn’t horrendous like the i3. The depreciation can’t be any worse than a normal MINI judging by my other half’s F56 which was worth about 2p after three years.
The mini will be great and is £20k less than my i3, which is amazing, especially if you consider what the VW eUp costs.
She will love it. It'll drive like a regular car, is reasonably practical and save her a small fortune.
Jon_S_Rally said:
More and more people are willing to pay that monthly amount though, even those on relatively low incomes. We are also possibly going to see a shift in ownership habits, where people lease cars, maybe even as they need them, rather than having one all the time.
I think you are probably right (or at least in the right direction). At my age, with my attitudes to spending and car ownership, I accept I'm probably in a decreasing minority when it comes to how I want to own and buy a car.I think that most PH'ers are sufficiently enthusiastic about cars to want to own it, rather than hire it. However, PH'ers aren't typical of the general car buying public, so I can see an automotive equivalent of Boris Bikes being quite appealing to some folk.
If we're talking about green credentials of electric cars, nobody has yet mentioned that at least 50% of National Grid electricity is still derived from fossil fuels, so all that's happening with electric cars is we're changing where the pollution is generated from the street to the power station (I accept this is a good thing if you live in a big city though)
Edited by Nigel_O on Wednesday 10th July 15:04
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