Bad crash at my local boy racer meet

[Dixy]

The conclusion has to be that people need to be taught to risk asses for themselves and take responsibility for their own decisions.

[Mandalore]

Dixy said:

The conclusion has to be that people need to be taught to risk asses for themselves and take responsibility for their own decisions.

Are you still talking about personal safety?

I only ask because in the last few years this forum has seen an increase in stories about everyday problems that should have been easily avoided, but the op concerned is blaming anyone/everyone else for not thinking for them.

[Hazmat1]

trackside tripod said:

OK so who do I blame....hmm...difficult one. Obviously the organisers for not organising it properly...not enough marshals or police taking control....the spectators for standing in a stupid place. You could blame the lack of marshals for that too but nevertheless, I always think people should be responsible for their own stupidity and by definition the drivers too. When you're young you think you are invincible, with more skills than a professional racing driver. The reality being more money and horsepower than talent. As several have said already, this was a major accident waiting to happen. What annoys me is that it'll make things far more difficult to organise car meets in the future. Personally I'd stick to proper, well organised car meets, not just something a bunch of kids (sorry, professional organisers) organise on social media!

And yet without the drivers doing their part, there would be no one else to blame.

Starts and ends with the people that were driving.

[Munter]

Hazmat1 said:

And yet without the drivers doing their part, there would be no one else to blame.

Starts and ends with the people that were driving.

And in the middle it involves the people encouraging the drivers.

10 seconds on google will find a reference on how we influence each other.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/after-serv...
"In his bestselling book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, psychologist Robert Cialdini writes, “Whether the question is what to do with an empty popcorn box in a movie theater, how fast to drive on a certain stretch of highway, or how to eat the chicken at a dinner party, the actions of those around us will be important in defining the answer.” Social proof is a shortcut to decide how to act."

Simply by watching, the crowd are telling the drivers that they approve of what they are doing. The more people, the more approved of the actions are.
The more drivers there are, the more it tells the crowd the drivers approve of people watching them.

That'll spiral until it runs out of space/interested people/an event happens that one or both sides don't approve of.

[akirk]

cerb4.5lee said:

InitialDave said:

And there'll still be events for them to go to in the future because of being this firm about not being dicks and pissing off the locals.

If you think it's not how an automotive-centric venue or event coordinators should run things, run your own differently.

I'm not saying that they are wrong for doing it that way I'm just saying that it isn't for me.

It is the same with track days and you can't do this and you have to adhere to that, also you are not allowed a loud exhaust and you get black flagged if you drift!

So for me it isn't any wonder that people go to these local boy racer meets in fairness. Just my opinion though.

I start by saying that I fundamentally disagree with you - events need to be organised - but actually re-reading your comments, I get where you are coming from and I think that in this thread we are not separating out various things - the key of which is:
- society keeps reducing options for being edgy / taking risk / adrenaline / etc. - everything is now over-managed, over-H&S-conscious, over-organised - leaving nowhere to go for those who need an element of risk in their lives - and that is a valid perspective.
- separate from that is the need to protect those who don't wish to be involved but get caught up / who don't have the decision making judgment to decide for themselves - so the public / passer-bys / children / etc.
- separate also is the need to not affect the rights of other to enjoyment of life - so noise / over-edgy behaviour etc. can feel threatening / disturb

we tend to think as a society of the norm - so the easiest option is to ban things / easiest option is to cater for the masses / if two activities clash, ban the noisy one it is more obvious / etc. but actually that leads to a very narrow, boring and two-dimensional society...

I actually think that the valid view that is not being fully articulated here is that there is a justification for allowing this type of activity to happen - our young friend who got a lot of stick above has a valid point - maybe we do need areas provided where there are no rules - much like the example above of a small group renting from a farmer - and therefore maybe track-days etc. are not the answer as they are also too regulated...

If the desire is not just about speed, but about pushing boundaries / being edgy / playing with risk - then as a society we need to ask whether that is something we want - and I think that all too often the answer too easily becomes 'no' when we then lose a dimension to society - those who want that risk / adrenaline - go and find it anyway, so we build confrontation and tension - or it is subdued, which I would argue is a bad thing - learning to take risk and deal with it is a key skill we are losing - it is being removed from schools / from childhood / from adulthood - yet, it is a skill needed in business if we are to be entrepreneurial, it is needed in our armed forces, it is needed if we want our country to stand on the world stage and not be walked over...

so perhaps we should be acknowledging the need to deal with this and find a way to 'organise' it so that it doesn't affect others, and is not overly organised or H&S based - perhaps an area where people sign away all rights as they enter and then can do as they wish within - the Wild West on a reserve?!

but to not recognise the need - to simply clamp down on it in a disapproving middle-class, pearl-clutching manner is to lose something in society. That doesn't mean that it should occur like this - clear examples of stupidity, but it perhaps does mean that we need to open up conversations about how we allow risk and boundary-pushing without it affecting the innocent bystander...

[DonkeyApple]

S1KRR said:

https://caffeineandmachine.com/

has a strict "no driving like a dick" when you leave. I believe they have had trouble recently with a few bikers. And off the back of that are considering banning bikers for good! I believe (but no proof) they ban those who hang the arse out as well.

So if you want to stop it, you can.

I was at an event on Saturday a few miles away from there and it is down a narrow lane which is not remotely appropriate for any pace, it is also a very popular lane with families on bikes as there is a large campsite at one end and a village with a river at the other and there alre also neighbours to consider.

Everyone arrived and left at low RPM in some amazing kit. One single individual hadn’t understood the tone and settings and stopped by the bar to Rev his engine, went round the corner, stopped and revved it some more and then banged off down the road.

I remember when the ‘spin it!’ choppers began appearing at the roundabouts at Le Mans. It was the beginning of the big change that brought an end to how it used to be.

And now they line the Ace Cafe like a chimp army.

The simple truth is that this particular type of person will always turn up eventually, first in ones and twos and then as legion and change the event and organisers have to decide whether they wish to embrace this change or nip it in the bud.

We are lucky in the UK that we have so much choice and that if one event evolves into a Fast n Furious re-enactment for GCSE woodwork specialists and potato printers then others exist or start up to replace what was lost.

[anonymous-user]

Dixy said:

risk asses

My posterior stays put.

[cerb4.5lee]

akirk said:

cerb4.5lee said:

InitialDave said:

And there'll still be events for them to go to in the future because of being this firm about not being dicks and pissing off the locals.

If you think it's not how an automotive-centric venue or event coordinators should run things, run your own differently.

I'm not saying that they are wrong for doing it that way I'm just saying that it isn't for me.

It is the same with track days and you can't do this and you have to adhere to that, also you are not allowed a loud exhaust and you get black flagged if you drift!

So for me it isn't any wonder that people go to these local boy racer meets in fairness. Just my opinion though.

I start by saying that I fundamentally disagree with you - events need to be organised - but actually re-reading your comments, I get where you are coming from and I think that in this thread we are not separating out various things - the key of which is:
- society keeps reducing options for being edgy / taking risk / adrenaline / etc. - everything is now over-managed, over-H&S-conscious, over-organised - leaving nowhere to go for those who need an element of risk in their lives - and that is a valid perspective.
- separate from that is the need to protect those who don't wish to be involved but get caught up / who don't have the decision making judgment to decide for themselves - so the public / passer-bys / children / etc.
- separate also is the need to not affect the rights of other to enjoyment of life - so noise / over-edgy behaviour etc. can feel threatening / disturb

we tend to think as a society of the norm - so the easiest option is to ban things / easiest option is to cater for the masses / if two activities clash, ban the noisy one it is more obvious / etc. but actually that leads to a very narrow, boring and two-dimensional society...

I actually think that the valid view that is not being fully articulated here is that there is a justification for allowing this type of activity to happen - our young friend who got a lot of stick above has a valid point - maybe we do need areas provided where there are no rules - much like the example above of a small group renting from a farmer - and therefore maybe track-days etc. are not the answer as they are also too regulated...

If the desire is not just about speed, but about pushing boundaries / being edgy / playing with risk - then as a society we need to ask whether that is something we want - and I think that all too often the answer too easily becomes 'no' when we then lose a dimension to society - those who want that risk / adrenaline - go and find it anyway, so we build confrontation and tension - or it is subdued, which I would argue is a bad thing - learning to take risk and deal with it is a key skill we are losing - it is being removed from schools / from childhood / from adulthood - yet, it is a skill needed in business if we are to be entrepreneurial, it is needed in our armed forces, it is needed if we want our country to stand on the world stage and not be walked over...

so perhaps we should be acknowledging the need to deal with this and find a way to 'organise' it so that it doesn't affect others, and is not overly organised or H&S based - perhaps an area where people sign away all rights as they enter and then can do as they wish within - the Wild West on a reserve?!

but to not recognise the need - to simply clamp down on it in a disapproving middle-class, pearl-clutching manner is to lose something in society. That doesn't mean that it should occur like this - clear examples of stupidity, but it perhaps does mean that we need to open up conversations about how we allow risk and boundary-pushing without it affecting the innocent bystander...

A very good post.

I'm not completely in favour of these local meets and I'm very sad about the way that this one has ended but I can see the appeal of them for sure.

I was probably harsh on track days but because they are so tightly managed regards overtaking/noise/driving standards(I do understand why though)...where do you actually go for your kicks/adrenaline rushes?

So I'm just saying that it isn't a surprise to me that some people enjoy showing off/letting off steam at these events. I'm not saying it is right but life is policed so much that sometimes you just fancy sticking two fingers up to it.

I'm a bit older now so my daft days are(mostly!) behind me and I see the risks more and think twice/consider the consequences. Having kids makes you think more too I reckon.

Events like this weren't quite as crazy when I was younger, but I would have been just like the GT86 driver if front of a big crowd sliding out sideways I'm sure.

[Electro1980]

That’s simply not true. Stopping the kind of behaviour involved in this accident is about stopping innocent bystanders being involved, but if you want to take risks and do something dangerous there are plenty of ways you can do this. This isn’t about taking risks and doing something “edgy”. It’s about being a tt and showing off.

Want to take risks, get the blood pumping and do something with a bit of danger, here’s a few options of various costs:

Racing
Mountain biking
Buy a motorbike
Fell running
Climbing
Learn to fly
Skate boarding
BMX
Parcor
Surfing
Sky diving
Boxing
Martial arts

Lots and lots of options, with the cheapest being about £50 cost up front. Less than a tank of petrol. Every year there is more and more choices.

I disagree that we are becoming more sanitised and two dimensional. There are plenty of options, but most of them require some sort of effort, and if the people involved in this kind of ttish driving were willing to put in even a tiny modicum of effort they would do it safely, but they don’t want this, they want cheap thrills and their egos fluffed, not adrenaline and risks.

Anyone involved in any sort of adrenaline sport will tell you risk management and knowing your limits are vital, or you end up dead. People involved in these sports are more health and safety minded than anyone, because they know the risks.

Edited by Electro1980 on Tuesday 23 July 09:48

[Durzel]

akirk said:

stuff

Problem is you can't separate the PC/claim culture from it. A farmer or land owner might sympathise with a bunch of lads who want to be able to have some safe fun drifting etc on their land, he/she might even remember when they did it themselves back in the day, but they would be a fool to actually let it happen. The dangers of something going wrong, and the liability for civil claims and possibly criminal proceedings etc thereafter would be enormous and would simply not make it worth their while to allow it to happen.

I guess the question also is that if you accept that events have to be regulated in some way, how satisfied will most of the people attending them be? There has already been an opinion expressed on this thread that regulated events are "boring", so there is probably a significant number of attendees doing it because it's illicit, because it's public. That's the juice for them. If the Police allow it, or the boundaries of it are regulated, if it's something that is planned, marshalled, etc, suddenly it's not so appealing anymore.

So, I don't think it's a solvable problem really. The people involved in this tragic event, both the participants and the spectators, are there because it's underground, and illicit. They wouldn't want to be doing the same thing on a track, or at a planned and managed event, because then it loses its edge. But management is essential to prevent innocent parties sharing the roads from getting caught up in it.

[Fastpedeller]

I still blame Top Gear
Maybe I'm getting old, but even at a younger age I couldn't see the appeal of taking 10k miles of tread off tyres to 'impress'. If you are racing on a circuit and can go faster than the others, that takes some skill. Spinning tyres can be done by anyone with a big enough engine, it isn't skillful. Can't see the appeal.

[DanielSan]

Mandalore said:

Dixy said:

The conclusion has to be that people need to be taught to risk asses for themselves and take responsibility for their own decisions.

Are you still talking about personal safety?

I only ask because in the last few years this forum has seen an increase in stories about everyday problems that should have been easily avoided, but the op concerned is blaming anyone/everyone else for not thinking for them.

Unfortunately that now sums up the majority of society now, the human race has and always been for the most part, thick as st, not using your own brain now seems to be an acceptable way of getting out of trouble you've got yourself into.

[J4CKO]

Fastpedeller said:

I still blame Top Gear
Maybe I'm getting old, but even at a younger age I couldn't see the appeal of taking 10k miles of tread off tyres to 'impress'. If you are racing on a circuit and can go faster than the others, that takes some skill. Spinning tyres can be done by anyone with a big enough engine, it isn't skillful. Can't see the appeal.

A mate of mine, non car guy used to say burnouts and stuff were the nearest he could see to "W***ing in public", he had a bit of a point to be fair.

[DonkeyApple]

J4CKO said:

Fastpedeller said:

I still blame Top Gear
Maybe I'm getting old, but even at a younger age I couldn't see the appeal of taking 10k miles of tread off tyres to 'impress'. If you are racing on a circuit and can go faster than the others, that takes some skill. Spinning tyres can be done by anyone with a big enough engine, it isn't skillful. Can't see the appeal.

A mate of mine, non car guy used to say burnouts and stuff were the nearest he could see to "W***ing in public", he had a bit of a point to be fair.

And tyres are clearly too cheap.

[akirk]

Durzel said:

akirk said:

stuff

Problem is you can't separate the PC/claim culture from it. A farmer or land owner might sympathise with a bunch of lads who want to be able to have some safe fun drifting etc on their land, he/she might even remember when they did it themselves back in the day, but they would be a fool to actually let it happen. The dangers of something going wrong, and the liability for civil claims and possibly criminal proceedings etc thereafter would be enormous and would simply not make it worth their while to allow it to happen.

I guess the question also is that if you accept that events have to be regulated in some way, how satisfied will most of the people attending them be? There has already been an opinion expressed on this thread that regulated events are "boring", so there is probably a significant number of attendees doing it because it's illicit, because it's public. That's the juice for them. If the Police allow it, or the boundaries of it are regulated, if it's something that is planned, marshalled, etc, suddenly it's not so appealing anymore.

So, I don't think it's a solvable problem really. The people involved in this tragic event, both the participants and the spectators, are there because it's underground, and illicit. They wouldn't want to be doing the same thing on a track, or at a planned and managed event, because then it loses its edge. But management is essential to prevent innocent parties sharing the roads from getting caught up in it.

you are right - but I guess hand in hand with a need to not over-sanitise our society would be a need to change the compensation culture... to allow situations where people can actually waive rights / responsibility etc. - then the farmer could lend the field safe in the knowledge that it is not their responsibility...

or we need to set aside a section of country as wild west - maybe Wales and say that once you cross the border - anything goes...
anyone who has brought up children knows that they need underlying structure and rigidity, but they also need times when you can take them to the park (council-funded ) or a field or the beach - and be allowed to go wild - to run free and let off steam... As adults we lose that ability...

Electro1980 said:

That’s simply not true. Stopping the kind of behaviour involved in this accident is about stopping innocent bystanders being involved, but if you want to take risks and do something dangerous there are plenty of ways you can do this. This isn’t about taking risks and doing something “edgy”. It’s about being a tt and showing off.

Want to take risks, get the blood pumping and do something with a bit of danger, here’s a few options of various costs:

Racing
Mountain biking
Buy a motorbike
Fell running
Climbing
Learn to fly
Skate boarding
BMX
Parcor
Surfing
Sky diving
Boxing
Martial arts

Lots and lots of options, with the cheapest being about £50 cost up front. Less than a tank of petrol. Every year there is more and more choices.

I disagree that we are becoming more sanitised and two dimensional. There are plenty of options, but most of them require some sort of effort, and if the people involved in this kind of ttish driving were willing to put in even a tiny modicum of effort they would do it safely, but they don’t want this, they want cheap thrills and their egos fluffed, not adrenaline and risks.

Anyone involved in any sort of adrenaline sport will tell you risk management and knowing your limits are vital, or you end up dead. People involved in these sports are more health and safety minded than anyone, because they know the risks.

My bold - and that is my point - even in adrenalin sports - they are over-managed and controlled...
in the child analogy above - where is the option to let off steam as an adult? I suspect that many on here do it by driving fast down country roads / motorways - and justify it in some way... there are a few who will free-climb on their own / go up mountains / into caves / push their boundaries and they do it solo to add risk and not be over-managed...

but when they get it wrong and are injured / die the media castigates them and says how inappropriate it was to take the risk - totally missing the point that we need un-managed risk... maybe we need to allow events like this - and not over-police them? as long as everyone there is fully cognisant of the risk and accepts it - maybe we need to allow boxing back in schools / maybe we need to allow motor sport where there is risk (it might make F1 less banal!), maybe we need to allow people to make choices which affect themselves and allow themselves to be free and push boundaries... otherwise we are building a pressure-cooker of a society... we seem to have an approach now which says that at all costs we must avoid death - so everything is managed down to avoid that - from driving to sport to any daily activity, what we eat / smoke / drink - yet the one unavoidable is that we will all die - so actually society doesn't ever reduce deaths, it simply shifts them from one category to another...

I am not suggesting that we allow people to do whatever they want regardless of the impact on others - but suggesting that as a society we have lost touch with why people take risk / and in our pursuit of H&S we have lost something in society - finding ways to allow people to take risk / do silly things (without affecting the innocent) is perhaps worth considering...

[Electro1980]

Those people pushing the limits are the ones doing the most risk management. Cave diving is pushing right at the limit of what can be done, but they check and train and test and check again. Cave divers are some of the most safety obsesses people, and know exactly what they are doing. They can push the limits because they do all this work.

The situation you are talking about just doesn’t exist for a reason. People want to come home alive. They want to push the limits but are not suicidal. The fact that you think that free climbers have anything in common with people doing drifts in public car parks shows a lack of understanding of what goes in to these things and why.

As I say, there are plenty of places to take risks. Go to any mountain bike park on any weekend and see people take risks, and some of them will hurt themselves. Occasionally people do die. But these are understood risks. Anyone wanting to take unknown risks isn’t a thrill seeker, they are an idiot.

Edited by Electro1980 on Tuesday 23 July 11:14

[80quattro]

The Dictator said:

Something very similar to this happened in Northampton town centre about 20 years ago, back when I was in my early twenties and into the VW scene :-)

There was a section of road that people raced around, egged on by the crowd and a car turned over into the central reservation hurting a number of bystanders.

I will never forget it, because not 30 seconds earlier I had said to my friends that we should move as it was a bit of a dangerous spot to watch from. Thank goodness I did as it happened exactly where we had been standing!

I was at the very same event, and can probably jolt your memory as it is still very vivid in mine. It was in 1997, and a guy in a blue Ford Escort MK4 slammed his brakes on approaching the central reservation in response to a car doing an emergency stop in front of him - which was due to someone continuing around the roundabout without indicating. The Escort slid into the kerb at about 45 degrees and rolled onto the CR, landing on a 12 year old boy. The crowd immediately righted the car. There were a lot of rumours floating around about the outcome for the boy. I believe he was very ill for a long time and was wheelchair bound. The Escort driver took it extremely hard. There was a lot of people there that evening, as it was rumoured that Max Power were going to attend.

[C70R]

fatboy18 said:

I gree with almost everything you said.... But... The guy in the black car ragging it sideways on the way up to the exit, stopping for a split second then hoofing it (looking at the Video footage, He did not look right) and pulled way into the path of the other car. Now don't get me wrong, testosterone must have been running high, but he cocked up big time!

There are a lot of posts on here that are clearly from either Non car owners or people that hate any level of modified car!

I own, and have owned plenty of cars.

Most of them, including my current track car, were heavily modified.

I can't imagine any world, scenario or age where I would think it appropriate to do 60mph+ along a narrow road, lined with people standing feet away, towards a junction I can't see clearly.

It has nothing to do with hating "any level of modified car".

It has everything to do hating "morons who encourage and behave like those in the video".

[Kingdom35]

Whats the latest then? With regards to the most important aspect. The bystanders, 17 of them injured, I pray theyre all ok and no major permanent injury.

What next? Has the kid resurfaced from his mummies pouch? Any remorse?

No doubt this meet will happen again.
Its amazing all the people i can see that attended have started blaming the police for lying that they never knew it was happening. That's the main focus for them.

Crazy world we live in and the youngsters today, never it seems take any accountability. Pathetic.

[C70R]

GEllisM4 said:

You can’t get rid of boy racers, no matter how much YOU or the COUNCIL hate them.

And here's the nub of the opinionated, privileged teen's opinion.

An antisocial minority, who are already on the wrong side of most normal people, should be accommodated at cost to the taxpayer.

Infallible logic.