RE: Where is Europe's Corvette? PH Footnote
Discussion
Poppiecock said:
I know this isn't the place - but you want to get out of the EU and form a similar partnership with the USA?
You are certifiably insane.
In defense of Schmed's sanity, which is probably more intact than my own, the US prefers to do deals which focus on trade whilst leaving governance (mostly) alone. You are certifiably insane.
There is, for example, no intention to federalise the NAFTA deal which spurs trade (and which builds wealth) among Canada, Mexico, and the US. Each country does its own governance, with executive, legislative, and judicial branches accountable to the domestic population.
unsprung said:
In defense of Schmed's sanity, which is probably more intact than my own, the US prefers to do deals which focus on trade whilst leaving governance (mostly) alone.
There is, for example, no intention to federalise the NAFTA deal which spurs trade (and which builds wealth) among Canada, Mexico, and the US. Each country does its own governance, with executive, legislative, and judicial branches accountable to the domestic population.
It was the 51st state comment that puzzled me!There is, for example, no intention to federalise the NAFTA deal which spurs trade (and which builds wealth) among Canada, Mexico, and the US. Each country does its own governance, with executive, legislative, and judicial branches accountable to the domestic population.
Poppiecock said:
unsprung said:
In defense of Schmed's sanity, which is probably more intact than my own, the US prefers to do deals which focus on trade whilst leaving governance (mostly) alone.
There is, for example, no intention to federalise the NAFTA deal which spurs trade (and which builds wealth) among Canada, Mexico, and the US. Each country does its own governance, with executive, legislative, and judicial branches accountable to the domestic population.
It was the 51st state comment that puzzled me!There is, for example, no intention to federalise the NAFTA deal which spurs trade (and which builds wealth) among Canada, Mexico, and the US. Each country does its own governance, with executive, legislative, and judicial branches accountable to the domestic population.
(nor could it be received by the US as such, because adding a 51st state would require a massive amount of legislative and constitutional work, not just in Washington DC but also among the 50 states... zzz....)
I’m wondering if Europe wants a Corvette, even one that’s a a facsimile of a European Supercar.
Of course there’s a small market for a sports car that’s cost effective thanks to nicking bits from mainstream cars, but we don’t really ‘do’ V8s anymore. I was surprised how few mainstream manufacturers actually make engines with more 4 cylinders these days.
Of course there’s a small market for a sports car that’s cost effective thanks to nicking bits from mainstream cars, but we don’t really ‘do’ V8s anymore. I was surprised how few mainstream manufacturers actually make engines with more 4 cylinders these days.
charles205xs said:
I'd take the Alpine any day.
Comparatively speaking why isn't the Alpine cheaper than it is? The sub £60/70k 'fast car' market is filled with ever more expensive premium hatchbacks and small SUV's.
TVR could still develop the one platform they have and build a cheaper Ecoboost coupe, but then I guess they'd be going head to head with the Mustang. Heck they could go sub £30k car and use Ford's 3 pot!
I don't know...at this point it would probably be cheaper to build a fast EV coupe and have the market to yourself.
w0o0dy said:
It's been tried... Artega was just that (although V6). Shared engines with VW, lots of parts shared /bought but it never took off. It would need a big manufacturer that would want to do a sub brand. BMW? Toyota? Hey guess what? They did the Supra/Z4 roadster together.. get that and get used to the synthetic sounding BMW inline 3.0 instead. At least it drives like a Corvette and is not that much slower.
Loved the artega 
Great looking and driving car.
Schmed said:
If they got Brexit done and signed a US trade deal ... we’d have this now for £49k.
Import Duty is 10%VAT is 20%
The £49k includes neither. (nor does it include the ~7% sales tax most US buyers would pay).
So at best, we could sign a deal to drop the 10% import duty, cutting the price of the Vette by what, £6k? It would help, but it wouldn't really change the overall picture of the Vette being much cheaper in the US than it is here.
And the number of performance cars we'd end up paying more tax on, because they come from the EU, would make it a net loss for the average PHer.
Illuminating maths above.
Thanks for that.
The greatest benefits of Brexit will accrue only over time -- and are conditional on the basis of reforms, perhaps a certain amount of liberalisation (unpopular at times in the UK, yes I know), as well as the investment opportunities and job creation that can come from this.
Macron's various comments and pleadings about a two- or three-speed Europe are wise, imo. Brexit is very much an opportunity for the EU to reform as well. If they choose to acknowledge this. Free trade doesn't necessarily require such a dogmatic adherence to a future federal "US of Europe".
unsprung said:
Illuminating maths above.
Thanks for that.
The greatest benefits of Brexit will accrue only over time -- and are conditional on the basis of reforms, perhaps a certain amount of liberalisation (unpopular at times in the UK, yes I know), as well as the investment opportunities and job creation that can come from this.
Macron's various comments and pleadings about a two- or three-speed Europe are wise, imo. Brexit is very much an opportunity for the EU to reform as well. If they choose to acknowledge this. Free trade doesn't necessarily require such a dogmatic adherence to a future federal "US of Europe".
I personally think that “free trade” isn’t the best outcome for countries.Thanks for that.
The greatest benefits of Brexit will accrue only over time -- and are conditional on the basis of reforms, perhaps a certain amount of liberalisation (unpopular at times in the UK, yes I know), as well as the investment opportunities and job creation that can come from this.
Macron's various comments and pleadings about a two- or three-speed Europe are wise, imo. Brexit is very much an opportunity for the EU to reform as well. If they choose to acknowledge this. Free trade doesn't necessarily require such a dogmatic adherence to a future federal "US of Europe".
Well considered trade agreements are.
Some industries need protecting strategically and some industries need protecting temporarily while some other agent acts to try and run them out of business short term to win the market long term.
You start with “you make lovely champagne, we make great jet engines and neither of us compete there so let’s not tariff those” and work from the edges into more contested areas where it may be beneficial to retain tariffs (agriculture perhaps, steel)
What is really like to see is a far more coherent policy trade wise with strategic allies, for example Chiba is acting to undermine steel, telecoms, semiconductors etc. We should have a list of items that no matter what the price we’ll only buy them off trusted allies to protect our joint interests.
If China wants to join that alliance it needs to stop building military bases in the spratleys, give Hong Kong democracy as it promised, stop lending countries money they can’t repay to build infrastructure then repossessing that land and claiming it for China and stop sending policemen to live with Muslims. That’s just scratching the surface.
Reasons why:
1. Homogeneous US market - In Europe each new country needs a car to be 're-marketed', which makes achieving scale very different.
2. Mass production - Lotus make cars that are cheap to develop, but expensive to build. Until you can prove that a market exists for enough cars, it is a huge gamble to invest in the sort of development that makes the Stingray work.
3. (I hesitate to add this - crass generalisation alert) Product sophistication - A Lotus is designed to achieve high levels of stiffness and ride control whilst keeping weight to a minimum. A Stingray... well it has 25% more power and doesn't care. The difference reflects the different environments these cars (tend) to be used in and the different expectations of the drivers.
Geely could change the equation - they could either enter the US or China aggressively which would give access to a 'market at scale' as a launch target for a future car/range, and they could commit to the development and facilities for a car made at Stingray volumes rather than Evora volumes. Would it still be a 'true Lotus' - who knows?
1. Homogeneous US market - In Europe each new country needs a car to be 're-marketed', which makes achieving scale very different.
2. Mass production - Lotus make cars that are cheap to develop, but expensive to build. Until you can prove that a market exists for enough cars, it is a huge gamble to invest in the sort of development that makes the Stingray work.
3. (I hesitate to add this - crass generalisation alert) Product sophistication - A Lotus is designed to achieve high levels of stiffness and ride control whilst keeping weight to a minimum. A Stingray... well it has 25% more power and doesn't care. The difference reflects the different environments these cars (tend) to be used in and the different expectations of the drivers.
Geely could change the equation - they could either enter the US or China aggressively which would give access to a 'market at scale' as a launch target for a future car/range, and they could commit to the development and facilities for a car made at Stingray volumes rather than Evora volumes. Would it still be a 'true Lotus' - who knows?
Another reason i believe the Vette works well in the US is due to the strong patriotism the US has.
Whilst i feel the current Brexit fiasco has shown we dont all believe in the keep it British, buy British mantra, flag waving country loving Americans do
The Vette is pretty much the halo mass produced car product for the nation and they are very proud of it, specifically if it 'beats' the european rivals and undercuts them in price.
They are also not so in tune with the whole global warming theme, meaning n large engine and fuel guzzling, whilst more heightened than before, is not at the fever pitch we have in Europe, they still think 25mpg is something a medium car can be proud of.
Finally, America is a massive car loving nation, home garages are at least double width, and often double height allowing them to buy lifts to double the capacity.
I live in New York state, and buying a house here, the amount of places that had 4 car garages plus room for a lift was unbelievable, even at my budget
So you have a massive base of very patriotic, car loving, global warming disbelieving (or probably more head burying ) population and a halo car a man on the street can afford that is as (or almost) fast as a Ferrari, this is not something Britian, or Europe can match
Whilst i feel the current Brexit fiasco has shown we dont all believe in the keep it British, buy British mantra, flag waving country loving Americans do
The Vette is pretty much the halo mass produced car product for the nation and they are very proud of it, specifically if it 'beats' the european rivals and undercuts them in price.
They are also not so in tune with the whole global warming theme, meaning n large engine and fuel guzzling, whilst more heightened than before, is not at the fever pitch we have in Europe, they still think 25mpg is something a medium car can be proud of.
Finally, America is a massive car loving nation, home garages are at least double width, and often double height allowing them to buy lifts to double the capacity.
I live in New York state, and buying a house here, the amount of places that had 4 car garages plus room for a lift was unbelievable, even at my budget
So you have a massive base of very patriotic, car loving, global warming disbelieving (or probably more head burying ) population and a halo car a man on the street can afford that is as (or almost) fast as a Ferrari, this is not something Britian, or Europe can match
satans worm said:
Another reason i believe the Vette works well in the US is due to the strong patriotism the US has.
Whilst i feel the current Brexit fiasco has shown we dont all believe in the keep it British, buy British mantra, flag waving country loving Americans do
The Vette is pretty much the halo mass produced car product for the nation and they are very proud of it, specifically if it 'beats' the european rivals and undercuts them in price.
They are also not so in tune with the whole global warming theme, meaning n large engine and fuel guzzling, whilst more heightened than before, is not at the fever pitch we have in Europe, they still think 25mpg is something a medium car can be proud of.
Finally, America is a massive car loving nation, home garages are at least double width, and often double height allowing them to buy lifts to double the capacity.
I live in New York state, and buying a house here, the amount of places that had 4 car garages plus room for a lift was unbelievable, even at my budget
So you have a massive base of very patriotic, car loving, global warming disbelieving (or probably more head burying ) population and a halo car a man on the street can afford that is as (or almost) fast as a Ferrari, this is not something Britian, or Europe can match
It must be difficult for you to live here.Whilst i feel the current Brexit fiasco has shown we dont all believe in the keep it British, buy British mantra, flag waving country loving Americans do
The Vette is pretty much the halo mass produced car product for the nation and they are very proud of it, specifically if it 'beats' the european rivals and undercuts them in price.
They are also not so in tune with the whole global warming theme, meaning n large engine and fuel guzzling, whilst more heightened than before, is not at the fever pitch we have in Europe, they still think 25mpg is something a medium car can be proud of.
Finally, America is a massive car loving nation, home garages are at least double width, and often double height allowing them to buy lifts to double the capacity.
I live in New York state, and buying a house here, the amount of places that had 4 car garages plus room for a lift was unbelievable, even at my budget
So you have a massive base of very patriotic, car loving, global warming disbelieving (or probably more head burying ) population and a halo car a man on the street can afford that is as (or almost) fast as a Ferrari, this is not something Britian, or Europe can match
Tuna said:
1. Homogeneous US market - In Europe each new country needs a car to be 're-marketed', which makes achieving scale very different.
That "reason" applies to all cars. And there are loads of individual car marques sold right the way across Europe.The difference is that those cars do not require the average European household to pay a disproportionate percentage of their income to acquire and operate the vehicle. A V8 performance car, conversely, would.
Another PHer said it best, earlier in this thread: if there would exist a market segment for a relatively affordable V8 performance car with a value-for-money proposition, some OEM already would have addressed this. But they haven't. Because EU households can't afford it. Which is why performance in Europe skews upmarket.
There is nothing in it for European manufacturers to suddeny knock out a bargain basement barnstormer. Obviously they could at the drop of a hat.
But they are heavily involved in high end stuff so this would be kicking themselves.
GM however don’t seem to have any luxo-performance brands on the books at the moment. So a Ferrari botherer is all good as far as they are concerned.
But they are heavily involved in high end stuff so this would be kicking themselves.
GM however don’t seem to have any luxo-performance brands on the books at the moment. So a Ferrari botherer is all good as far as they are concerned.
swisstoni said:
a Ferrari botherer
that label has a nice ring to it
I will politely disagree, however, to the argument that European OEMs are invested so much at the top end of the market that they fear cannibalising that by pursuing the middle market.
The use of brand and price segmentation, along with a commensurate managing of product features, would easily allow an OEM to have products in both the middle and the top. Different products. But no less successful. In fact, it would be a money-making opportunity... except that most EU households can't afford to acquire and operate such a value-for-money V8 performance car.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff