RE: Honda Integra Type R (DC5) | Spotted

[Tickle]

Why won't you be able to drive it?

[m5wagon]

Is it cheeky to suggest taking the K20 out of this, adding a Jackson Racing supercharger, and then popping it into a lighter weight, mid-engine chassis like a Lotus Elise or Exige? 310bhp meets 750kg means about 410bhp/ton = yeeehaw! Here’s one prepared earlier....

[300bhp/ton]

Usget said:

It's a fabulous car which you won't be allowed to drive for much longer so I'm making the most of it while I can!

The rest of your post was good and interesting. This bit is nonsense though

[Alpinestars]

SidewaysSi said:

Would a stripped and upgraded DC5 bring back some of the rawness?

Yes. I have both and this modified DC5 is mental. Turn in is phenomenal, and the noise is amazing. In standard form the DC2 is the much better car. The standard DC5 is a grown up, less focussed version.

https://youtu.be/VIKnEU6zgbw

[havoc]

Article said:

It meant the fatter DC5 had 206hp-per-tonne to the DC2's 188, which was enough to convince many that sufficient progress had been achieved.

Usget said:

The weight stuff is a bit off. The DC2 weighed about 1150kg and the thread below weighed a stock DC5 with half a tank of fuel at 1200kg

https://type-r-owners.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?...

I've had a UKDM DC2, an FN2, and I've just acquired a very wonderful 2004 DC5 with a few subtle mods taking it to 239bhp. It is substantially more rapid than both of them, and much more livable-with than the DC2 (I've owned it since late August and already put around 2k on it).

Agreed on the first point - PH seem incapable of getting any stats correct in these articles. fking work-experience journalism...
- UKDM DC2 was 1,120kg with aircon (fattest option - 1,090kg for a '96 JDM), which meant ~168bhp/tonne from 187bhp (190PS).
- DC5 is a little over 1,200kg as standard, so with 217bhp (220PS) it was c.190bhp/tonne.

K20A is in all objective measures better than the B18C - fatter mid-range (quite a lot so in the JDM engines), better economy, more readily tunable. BUT (as someone who spent 9 years running DC2s and is over 6 years into an FD2), the B18C sounds so much more feral* on-cam, especially in cold air. And throttle-response (stock-for-stock) felt that bit sharper (ignoring the over-sensitive mapping on the FD2's pedal)




* All the 1990s performance engines from Honda were like that - B-series (CRX, Civic VTi, DC2-R), H-series (Preludes and ATR) and C-series (NSX) all have a very animalistic snarl on-cam which is partly reminiscent of old carb-fed engines (or ITBs, for the youngsters in the room). Winter mornings out for a blat never failed to bring a smile to your face the first time you hit VTEC...utterly glorious sound with few 4-cyl equals.
The (completely redesigned) K20A still sounds good (esp. by modern standards), but has a more metallic induction note (think 4-pot version of the S54 motor from the E46) which, when paired to the right/wrong exhaust, becomes a more touring-car like sound.

[Usget]

300bhp/ton said:

Usget said:

It's a fabulous car which you won't be allowed to drive for much longer so I'm making the most of it while I can!

The rest of your post was good and interesting. This bit is nonsense though

Nonsense why? In 10-15 years time I am pretty sure it's going to be very, very difficult to run a Euro IV vehicle. Let alone a noisy, shouty one. Unfortunately, that's just the way the wind is blowing.

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong but I'm not taking any chances

[HJG]

Does anybody mess about converting these to RWD? Or would that totally ruin the car and turn it into a bloated S2000?
(Never driven one).

[300bhp/ton]

Usget said:

Nonsense why? In 10-15 years time I am pretty sure it's going to be very, very difficult to run a Euro IV vehicle. Let alone a noisy, shouty one. Unfortunately, that's just the way the wind is blowing.

On what rational level do you conclude this ????

It is still perfectly legal to run a traction engine or a pre WW1 vintage car. 10-15 years is not really all that far away either. Let alone there are plenty of places in the world where they don't even have running water or electricity yet. Let alone thinking of banning petrol engines....

[Kewy]

HJG said:

Does anybody mess about converting these to RWD? Or would that totally ruin the car and turn it into a bloated S2000?
(Never driven one).

Why would you? They're fantastic as a fwd car.

That being said, I'm sure someone will have somewhere…

300bhp/ton said:

On what rational level do you conclude this ????

It is still perfectly legal to run a traction engine or a pre WW1 vintage car. 10-15 years is not really all that far away either. Let alone there are plenty of places in the world where they don't even have running water or electricity yet. Let alone thinking of banning petrol engines....

I don't necessarily agree that you 'won't be allowed' to drive these cars, however I'm a firm believer that the K20 is of an era of engine that we won't see again, and therefore we must enjoy it whilst we can and whilst they're affordable.

[vtecyo]

Usget said:

It's a fabulous car which you won't be allowed to drive for much longer

Why not?

[havoc]

Kewy said:

HJG said:

Does anybody mess about converting these to RWD? Or would that totally ruin the car and turn it into a bloated S2000?
(Never driven one).

Why would you? They're fantastic as a fwd car.

That being said, I'm sure someone will have somewhere…

Not sure about DC5, but someone has created a RWD, C30-engine'd DC2.

They've had to bugger about with the rear suspension to do so, and have totally changed the weight distribution...so have ripped out (almost) EVERYTHING* that made the DC2 special. But hey, they wanted to and they have...




* Handling, especially the passive rear-wheel steer and the fact that as you up the cornering load the standard car feels like it's actually becoming MORE neutral. Then there's the sublime gearshift, the scalpel-like engine (C30 is a great motor and sounds better, but has much more of a flywheel effect), and the (by modern standards) decent ride and uncanny ability not to lose contact with the road. And the beautiful, figure-hugging Recaros, which have also gone...

[Jakey123]

Elatino1 said:

Pah, my impreza revs to 8k rpm.

... til the bottom end gives up because they are made of cheese.
So many Subarus come up for sale with bottom end knock or replacement engines.
That's pretty much unheard of with the k20s, they do big miles with barely any issues and certainly no expensive ones.

I had an EK9 for a while, fun cars just pretty gutless unless thrashing them.

[adam.]

Jakey123 said:

That's pretty much unheard of with the k20s, they do big miles with barely any issues and certainly no expensive ones.

Don't be fooled into thinking they're bullet proof though! (Don't get me wrong, they're still brilliant.)

Oil surge / starvation with subsequent block-windowing, and stretched timing chains are points of worry.

[Jon_S_Rally]

baptistsan said:

Knob sock

Or just grow a pair I've had loads of cars with metal gear knobs, don't see why people get so upset about it.

AudlemLass said:

Hello again, re the intake manifold/how the higher bhp on my DC5?
It’s the larger RRC manifold, 3” K&N intake, Honda 410 injectors, K20 high lift camshafts, Hondatech ECU, K20 exhaust header, high flow cat and solid fabrications free flow exhaust. All tuned and dyno tested. It’s a brilliant package.

What sort of output does that result in?

usualdog said:

I'm looking at both of these, but as someone who is strapped for cash and not mechanically gifted, I'm inclined to choose an ageing Honda over an ageing Renault. Would that be a mistake?

The MK3 Megane is pretty good to be honest, much less fragile than the previous 225/230 verson. Plenty out there that get used hard on track and lap it up.

[fullleather]

A question to the owners of these cars...when you hit the rev limiter, does the engine cut out like it does in the s2000 or kind of 'bounce' giving you the time to change gear? the dc2 iirc from driving years ago did indeed 'bounce'. I like my 2000 a lot but the flashing light after 9000 is pointless really & the immediate loss of power is nasty when you're really on the move. I'm aware the three are all different engines.

[Alpinestars]

fullleather said:

A question to the owners of these cars...when you hit the rev limiter, does the engine cut out like it does in the s2000 or kind of 'bounce' giving you the time to change gear? the dc2 iirc from driving years ago did indeed 'bounce'. I like my 2000 a lot but the flashing light after 9000 is pointless really & the immediate loss of power is nasty when you're really on the move. I'm aware the three are all different engines.

Bounces.

[Pastor Of Muppets]

havoc said:

Not sure about DC5, but someone has created a RWD, C30-engine'd DC2.

They've had to bugger about with the rear suspension to do so, and have totally changed the weight distribution...so have ripped out (almost) EVERYTHING* that made the DC2 special. But hey, they wanted to and they have...




* Handling, especially the passive rear-wheel steer and the fact that as you up the cornering load the standard car feels like it's actually becoming MORE neutral. Then there's the sublime gearshift, the scalpel-like engine (C30 is a great motor and sounds better, but has much more of a flywheel effect), and the (by modern standards) decent ride and uncanny ability not to lose contact with the road. And the beautiful, figure-hugging Recaros, which have also gone...

Havoc... Do you have any opinion on whether this is daoble.... I have a complete running gear from a 96 spec ITR, loom
,ecu, shafts, B18C and S80 in known fantastic order with 68k miles from a rear ended car i broke about 5 years ago. I have
a chance to buy a CR-Z very light damage at a great price, whats the main difficulties you could foresee doing the B conversion
into the CR-Z?. I know the K20 conversion has been done but never heard of any with a B series.

Have done loads of B engine conversions into EF / EE / EG /EK, but never really had any dealings with the CR-Z, reckon
its a possibility? (within reason).

[havoc]

Pastor Of Muppets said:

Havoc... Do you have any opinion on whether this is daoble.... I have a complete running gear from a 96 spec ITR, loom
,ecu, shafts, B18C and S80 in known fantastic order with 68k miles from a rear ended car i broke about 5 years ago. I have
a chance to buy a CR-Z very light damage at a great price, whats the main difficulties you could foresee doing the B conversion
into the CR-Z?. I know the K20 conversion has been done but never heard of any with a B series.

Have done loads of B engine conversions into EF / EE / EG /EK, but never really had any dealings with the CR-Z, reckon
its a possibility? (within reason).

I suspect it is entirely possible, but not without a LOT of bespoke work, for one reason:-

- B-series and other old Honda motors were 'backwards' vs the European standard (i.e. they rotated counter-clockwise when looking from the front). K-series follow the 'usual convention' of clockwise rotation.

..so I suspect even though you've got the 'box (essential) there'll still be a whole host of headaches in connecting up all of the peripherals - driveshafts, coolant hoses/thermostat, aux belts, clutch slave cyl/cable mating, gear linkage, throttle cable (CR-Z is DBW), and probably others I've forgotten about.



Best bet is google the issues to fix with K-swapping a DC2 or an EK/EG, and then think about the 'reverse' of the problem (e.g. if K-swapping a 'teg has an issue with something being too long, B-swapping into a CR-Z or FN will probably have the opposite issue - it'll be too short).

Even better, sell the B18 - someone in the 'teg community may want a spare, or want originality (or an EG driver might want the ultimate B-motor), and put that towards a K-swap into the -Z.

[Terminator X]

Jakey123 said:

... til the bottom end gives up because they are made of cheese.
So many Subarus come up for sale with bottom end knock or replacement engines.
That's pretty much unheard of with the k20s, they do big miles with barely any issues and certainly no expensive ones.

I had an EK9 for a while, fun cars just pretty gutless unless thrashing them.

Not the Jap Scoobs, pretty much bomb proof.

TX.

[havoc]

Terminator X said:

Not the Jap Scoobs, pretty much bomb proof.

TX.

?!?

Same blocks.

I work next to a Subaru tuner. I'll ask them tomorrow.

(PS - they've always got a ton of cars outside for repairs, and not a week goes by without someone towed/trailered over to them)