RE: New Nissan 370Z finally in development
Discussion
I've been thinking about why the 370Z's engine feels harsh after 6500rpm, and the engine that was in the 350Z when it first came out redlined around 6500rpm. So with Nissan making the engine higher revving(7500rpm) in the later 350Z and 370Z they haven't quite nailed the smoothness of it.
If I recall back to when I test drove a 350Z years ago, the engine didn't suffer from the same reluctance as the 370Z does at the top of the revs. So that makes sense to me now and that could be one of the reasons why most actually prefer the 350Z to the 370Z.
It is similar in many ways to the E36 M3(3.0) and some preferred the slightly less powerful/slightly lower revving engine in that model versus the later E36 M3 3.2 Evo model.
If I recall back to when I test drove a 350Z years ago, the engine didn't suffer from the same reluctance as the 370Z does at the top of the revs. So that makes sense to me now and that could be one of the reasons why most actually prefer the 350Z to the 370Z.
It is similar in many ways to the E36 M3(3.0) and some preferred the slightly less powerful/slightly lower revving engine in that model versus the later E36 M3 3.2 Evo model.
unsprung said:
samoht said:
I would say Nissan would need either better styling or lower cost to make it worth their while; either would appear feasible. Nissan have a big US market for the 'Zee' to drive sales volume.
The last time I commented on PH about the Z car franchise, another bloke insisted that the car (as we know it in the West) was conceived solely for a handful of discerning British motorists and that the story of Yutaka Katayama and his focus on the US market, is a cover-up propagated for more than 50 years by motoring press on both sides of the Atlantic.Product planner? Stylist? Designer? Engineer?
PZR said:
2019 being the 50th anniversary of the 'Z car franchise', I'd be interested to hear more about Yutaka Katayama.
Product planner? Stylist? Designer? Engineer?
As head of Nissan US, he supported various racing efforts, managed to bring in the 510 that cracked the US market, and pushed for getting the 'big' 2.4L engine in the original Fairlady/240Z to meet American tastes, which it very successfully did (the JDM models launching with the 2.0L only, for tax reasons).Product planner? Stylist? Designer? Engineer?
The excellent JNC have the full story:
http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/rip-yutaka-katayam...
http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/video-the-life-and...
samoht said:
PZR said:
2019 being the 50th anniversary of the 'Z car franchise', I'd be interested to hear more about Yutaka Katayama.
Product planner? Stylist? Designer? Engineer?
As head of Nissan US, he supported various racing efforts, managed to bring in the 510 that cracked the US market, and pushed for getting the 'big' 2.4L engine in the original Fairlady/240Z to meet American tastes, which it very successfully did (the JDM models launching with the 2.0L only, for tax reasons).Product planner? Stylist? Designer? Engineer?
The excellent JNC have the full story:
http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/rip-yutaka-katayam...
http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/video-the-life-and...
My point is that his role in creation of the actual cars is usually way overstated. He wasn't a stylist, designer or engineer and he had no remit from Nissan to be directly involved in product planning. His background was in sales and advertising, and he was sent to the USA after Nissan had already started to set up its sales operation there - after the work of Koichi Iwata, Teiichi Hara, Soichi Kawazoe and several others. Katayama did not become President of Nissan Motor Co USA until late 1965.
Katayama was a great man, but he wasn't any kind of car 'creator'. His greatest success was in structuring NMC-USA in the same way that Volkswagen had done with their USA operation some years earlier, and in being the friendly 'face' of an otherwise faceless company at a vital time. He was, arguably, very lucky to have been given the task at a golden time and retired to Japan before the late 70s 'If you sell in USA, make in USA' American autoworkers backlash.
In the long run, it's hard to imagine that things would have been all that different had Katayama not been sent to the USA. What tends to be overlooked - as the story is usually told from an American viewpoint - is that Japan was looking at the WORLD market for its activities but that it had a voracious, competitive and fairly sophisticated home market to satisfy too. All the cars that Katayama is credited as being responsible for would have existed without him. Why would they not?
The idea of 'American tastes' is an interesting one in relation to the S30-series Z ('Datsun 240Z') as the HLS30U for the North American market was arguably dumbed down and softened up to suit that market. It was also somewhat de-contented in order to keep costs down (part of the pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap philosophy for USA sales), but the specification of the L24 was intended to mitigate power-sapping anti pollution equipment. Softer springing/damping, no rear ARB and a skinny front one, a slower steering rack ratio, a four speed transmission and 3.3 diff ratio made the North American market 240Z quite different in character to the models sold elsewhere in the world. Maybe that was Katayama's input?
PZR said:
I'm probably being a little disingenuous
And indeed you are. 
So we meet again!
Hang on. I'll run to the kitchen for a sheet of tin foil (appropriate dress for your argument).
Meanwhile...
"About 35 years ago, Japan was just starting to make inroads into the American market, but at the time our products were not highly regarded, they sold because they were cheap. "
"When Mr Katayama came back from America and visited my department. the words he said made me determined to follow my dream. He stated that we could go on making cheap economy cars forever, but by doing so, we would never be able to move forward in export markets. Nissan, and Japan as a whole, needed to build something stunning, something original that would make foreign manufacturers sit up and take notice of us. "
"I felt the only way to make any progress with the project was to make a clay model to show Katayama-san, gain his support, and ask him. as the President of Nissan USA, to push for the model's development. "
--- Yoshihiko Matsuo, Chief Designer, Design Project Z, commenting in 1999
https://zhome.com/History/StylingMatsuo/MatsuoZSto...
unsprung said:
PZR said:
I'm probably being a little disingenuous
And indeed you are. So we meet again!
Hang on. I'll run to the kitchen for a sheet of tin foil (appropriate dress for your argument).
Meanwhile...
"About 35 years ago, Japan was just starting to make inroads into the American market, but at the time our products were not highly regarded, they sold because they were cheap. "
"When Mr Katayama came back from America and visited my department. the words he said made me determined to follow my dream. He stated that we could go on making cheap economy cars forever, but by doing so, we would never be able to move forward in export markets. Nissan, and Japan as a whole, needed to build something stunning, something original that would make foreign manufacturers sit up and take notice of us. "
"I felt the only way to make any progress with the project was to make a clay model to show Katayama-san, gain his support, and ask him. as the President of Nissan USA, to push for the model's development. "
--- Yoshihiko Matsuo, Chief Designer, Design Project Z, commenting in 1999
https://zhome.com/History/StylingMatsuo/MatsuoZSto...
(that's the sound of you falling into the trap of using zhome.com for your references).
So, am I...
"....The last time I commented on PH about the Z car franchise, another bloke insisted that the car (as we know it in the West) was conceived solely for a handful of discerning British motorists and that the story of Yutaka Katayama and his focus on the US market, is a cover-up propagated for more than 50 years by motoring press on both sides of the Atlantic."
...he? Or was that someone else? Because I wouldn't be silly enough to imagine that the S30-series Z was "conceived solely for a handful of discerning British motorists", let alone talk about a "cover-up".
Thanks for the Matsuo quote. I can give you lots more. He's a friend of mine.
Is that what it took to get the car made? Get Katayama's support? A word in the right ear? I don't think so. It helped, sure. But the Fairlady SP/SR roadsters were going to be replaced by something, and its form would be shaped by new regulations and standards just as much as by any one person. Especially any one person who simply *wasn't there*.
It's a Japanese car. The story is a Japanese story, written in Japanese. It's not on zhome.com.
Careful with that tin foil. It's Alooominum.
PZR said:
Thanks for the Matsuo quote. I can give you lots more. He's a friend of mine.
Please do.Furthermore, if the quotes attributed to Matsuo are inaccurate, it would be of immense value if he or an agent will renounce them here.
The quotes are consistent with the widespread publishing of Katayama as father of the Z car and the US as the Z car target market. You have difficulty with these facts.
But the true intention of your argument is revealed in the twist of your opening gambit: You'd like the PH forum to know that you've met people of note.
This also allows you to make obscure claims, as you do here and elsewhere, for which there can be no counter argument. A sort of "I met them in person and you didn't."
This is all quite exciting for me, Toyota releasing the new Supra, Nissan making a new sports car to replace the 370z and the rumoured Mazda RX-I replacement.
I love Japanese cars and love seeing what they can produce when they put their mind to it (R35 GTR).
Although it wouldn’t be in the same class, I would love it if Honda had another go at the S2000, the Germans have been unchallenged for far too long now!
I only hope these cars remain affordable and undercut the M2’s and Caymans as 50k (new supra) is way out of my budget. I wouldn’t have blinked twice at a year old A90 for 30k but that’s never going to happen. The oldest I’d buy when spending around 25-30k is 18 months old and if all of these upcoming Japanese sports cars start at 50, it will never be possible.
I love Japanese cars and love seeing what they can produce when they put their mind to it (R35 GTR).
Although it wouldn’t be in the same class, I would love it if Honda had another go at the S2000, the Germans have been unchallenged for far too long now!
I only hope these cars remain affordable and undercut the M2’s and Caymans as 50k (new supra) is way out of my budget. I wouldn’t have blinked twice at a year old A90 for 30k but that’s never going to happen. The oldest I’d buy when spending around 25-30k is 18 months old and if all of these upcoming Japanese sports cars start at 50, it will never be possible.
I think the overall thing is that the Z has historically sold well in both Japan and North America, in something like a 50/40/10 split between those two regions and the rest of the world. Therefore a new car will be designed to sell well at home and in the USA, if it hits the mark in both those markets then it will be a success like its forebears.
J4CKO said:
There is a new GTR due, that will be a hybrid, I suspect the new Z will share some development, tooling and componentry with that car and be a sort of cost reduced RWD GTR to a degree. Toyota didnt have anything to work with, so cosied up with BMW, Nissan are already half way there.
This seems a very likely approach. It would be easy to imagine that both cars have a 3.0T V6 up front driving the rear wheels. The Z makes 400hp, the GTR makes 500hp by turning up the boost on the same engine, then adds 200hp electric boost for a headline number of 700hp. The R36 runs two motors up front allowing torque vectoring, and one integrated into the petrol drivetrain - like an NSX but backwards. This way it gets a hugely capable AWD system without any of the R35's mechanical complexity - the petrol drivetrain would be near identical between the two cars. Maybe even bring the bodyshells closer together so you can use the same doors, a la Silvia/180SX.craig9367 said:
So is there actually any evidence to suggest this isnt just someone ragging a 370z around?
Good question, especially as the Z34 is known to have overheating issues on track, so the 'circular saw' look makes a lot of sense. The article doesn't say, but I would assume that this car was snapped during an 'industry pool' session at the Nurburgring, when only the car manufacturers are allowed on track. So I think PH have some basis on which to assume that this is being run by Nissan, rather than just an enthusiastic owner.ZX10R NIN said:
It'll be using the same V6TT found in the Q50/60 I'd guess it'll be 400+ & be manual which I think it'll take some Supra sales if it does, in the states they're already seeing 800bhp out of this engine so the tuning scene will be well catered for too.
Yep that engine is a cracker by all accounts, it's begging to be put into a decent car. If Nissan can nail a reasonably low kerb weight with a relatively simple 2wd drivetrain for under £50k they might be onto something very special.PZR said:
Katayama was a great man, but he wasn't any kind of car 'creator'.
The Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) has published the following about the origin of the S30 and its popular namesake, 240Z:“Indeed, Matsuo later admitted that he had been inspired to create the 240Z by Katayama.”
“When Mr Katayama came back from America and visited my department the words he said made me determined to follow my dream,” [Matsuo] said. “He stated that we could go on making cheap economy cars forever, but by doing so, we would never be able to move forward in export markets. Nissan, and Japan as a whole, needed to build something stunning, something original that would make foreign manufacturers sit up and take notice of us.”
“The 240Z was the embodiment of Katayama’s wishes.”
Download the PDF here (see word DOWNLOAD)
https://issuu.com/issufia/docs/auto20_issuu_rgb
The article begins on page 76 of the above PDF.
About the FIA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9d%C3%A9ration...
unsprung said:
Furthermore, if the quotes attributed to Matsuo are inaccurate, it would be of immense value if he or an agent will renounce them here.
The quotes are consistent with the widespread publishing of Katayama as father of the Z car and the US as the Z car target market. You have difficulty with these facts.
But the true intention of your argument is revealed in the twist of your opening gambit: You'd like the PH forum to know that you've met people of note.
This also allows you to make obscure claims, as you do here and elsewhere, for which there can be no counter argument. A sort of "I met them in person and you didn't."
Matsuo doesn't need to "renounce" anything he has said. What an extraordinary thing to say.The quotes are consistent with the widespread publishing of Katayama as father of the Z car and the US as the Z car target market. You have difficulty with these facts.
But the true intention of your argument is revealed in the twist of your opening gambit: You'd like the PH forum to know that you've met people of note.
This also allows you to make obscure claims, as you do here and elsewhere, for which there can be no counter argument. A sort of "I met them in person and you didn't."
You seem to be very interested in making this about me. Why is that?
The facts speak for themselves. They don't belong to me. I'm just delivering a different take to the "Made For The USA" / "An American Car, Made In Japan" stuff you'll get from the usual USA-based sources. Most of that is just the United States of America talking to itself.
Yes, I've made it my business over the last 30-odd years to meet quite a few of the people who were involved in the creation (and competition use) of Nissan's S30-series Z. You seem to think that this somehow disqualifies me from commenting? A little way back in the thread you were exaggerating and distorting something you pulled up from the past (your "another bloke insisted...[it was] conceived solely for a handful of discerning British motorists...") so I'm not sure you'll be all that reliable as a witness, but I'll try anyway.
What does all that "Father of the Z" stuff mean in practical terms? I mean practical as in making a personal stamp on the fabric, character and/or dynamics of the car. What's indelibly 'Katayama' about the car, bearing in mind the fact that Katayama was (busy) in the USA whilst it was being created, and only visited Matsuo's styling studio a couple of times whilst he was back in Japan on other - arguably more important - business. What did he do? Did he send through his recipe like a pizza order over the Telex machine? And Matsuo and his team were only involved in the body styling of the car, in a different location to where the engineering development of the cars was taking place.
It's like people simply can't imagine what was going on in Japan and/or Nissan at the time. Like Nissan didn't have a working structure for product planning, automotive design, engineering, manufacturing, an army of staff - all qualified and proficient in their particular field - with their own ambitions, hopes and dreams. As though Nissan's domestic sales staff didn't have any input. As though Japan itself simply didn't know what it was doing, and needed some message in a bottle from afar to act on.
Why does all this "Made For The USA" not seem to translate to other models, other marques? Yes, North America was the largest single automotive market in the world at that time. Of course - OF COURSE! - Nissan and the other Japanese manufactures recognised that fact and aimed at that market for maximum sales in certain sectors, but at what point does that mean the product simply would not exist had it not been for the North American market? Do we hear the "Made For The USA" thing said about the hundreds of thousands of little Datsun pickup trucks that the USA consumed in the same period? How about for the tens of thousands of MGs, Triumphs, E-types, 356s, 911s? The VW Beetle even? Was the Toyota Corolla "Made For The USA"?
Katayama attached himself to a project that had already started. Yes, his "I can sell this" reassured his product planning superiors greatly, but the things would have sold themselves at that price (US RRP was $3,526 at launch). This was a golden age, and Katayama himself commented that it was though it was raining money, and all he needed was a bucket to catch it. Within ten years it had all changed. So was the follow-up S130-series of 1978 (known outside Japan as the '280ZX') an "American Car, Made in Japan" too? Was that winning formula of 'Father' Katayama spec repeated? I don't hear it.
The topic of this thread is the nascent Nissan Z35. It will probably - as most of the V-engined Zs since the Z31 have - feature more global standardisation of specs and components than its ancestor the S30-series Z did in 1969. I'm hearing that the Z35 will indeed follow the 3.0 twin-turbo V6 (Q50/60) formula, and likely with at least some tip of the hat to EV capability, but the layout and drivetrain will already be suitable for both LHD and RHD markets and their respective requirements. Contrast this with the S30-series Z: If you were designing/engineering a sports/GT from scratch specifically 'For The USA' would you choose a straight six engine with its inlet and exhaust on its LEFT side? Why would you give the USA model a 4-speed and 3.3:1 diff when all other markets got a choice including a 5-speed O/D with 3.9:1 diff? Why give the USA a slower steering rack ratio than other markets, softer dampers/springs/ARBs than other markets? Why make it less sporty/GT than other market variants? Why deny features (factory aircon, reclining seats, HRW, stereo audio...carpets!) available on other market variants? Manufacturers don't really do that anymore, do they? They did it with the HLS30U model 'Datsun 240Z' for the North American market in 1969/70.
unsprung said:
But the true intention of your argument is revealed in the twist of your opening gambit: You'd like the PH forum to know that you've met people of note.
This also allows you to make obscure claims, as you do here and elsewhere, for which there can be no counter argument. A sort of "I met them in person and you didn't."
(my bold)This also allows you to make obscure claims, as you do here and elsewhere, for which there can be no counter argument. A sort of "I met them in person and you didn't."
So where is your "elsewhere"? I don't remember you from anywhere else.
Straight question, no spin: Do you own one of the cars we are talking about? What have you got? What market/variant/year? If I point out details on the cars for you to look at, will you have a car to hand to use as a reference?
PZR said:
(my bold)
So where is your "elsewhere"? I don't remember you from anywhere else.
Straight question, no spin: Do you own one of the cars we are talking about? What have you got? What market/variant/year? If I point out details on the cars for you to look at, will you have a car to hand to use as a reference?
Before we go elsewhere, we have business here.So where is your "elsewhere"? I don't remember you from anywhere else.
Straight question, no spin: Do you own one of the cars we are talking about? What have you got? What market/variant/year? If I point out details on the cars for you to look at, will you have a car to hand to use as a reference?
Matsuo is your friend, you say, yet quotes attributed to him contradict your claims.
The FIA, as well as a dozen UK sites and dozens more elsewhere support those quotes from Matsuo about the S30 / 240Z.
You, alone, claim that all of this is wrong. You therefore have one choice to make:
a) provide evidence for your claims
b) acknowledge that you have no facts to hand.
We are waiting for your decision. Which will you choose?
PZR said:
What tends to be overlooked - as the story is usually told from an American viewpoint - is that Japan was looking at the WORLD market for its activities
The figures contradict your claim:"Of the 150,076 Datsun 240Zs made to the end of 1973, a whopping 146,000 went to the US: rather fewer made it to these shores."
source
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Was "the WORLD market" satisfied with but 3 percent of production?
If, at the time, the world market was an addressable pool of, say, 20 countries, how could any of them have made any commercial sense at all?
PZR said:
You seem to be very interested in making this about me. Why is that?
Because you're the only one who denies that the S30 / 240Z is largely the result of proactive leadership by a qualified engineer named Yutaka Katayama and that the US market was his target for this product.You deny.
And you prevaricate.
Each of the following is of UK or UK Commonwealth origin:
"The phonemenon of the Z, also known as the 'S30', was originally created specficially to cater to the US market."
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/new-zealand-...
"The 240Z -- and the line of later models that followed through to 1978 -- might never have happened had it not been for the drive and initiative of Nissan Motors US president Yutaka Katayama."
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/new-zealand-...
"Designed specifically to earn lucrative US dollars, the 240Z broke the mould for Japanese sports cars."
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
"Katayama’s persistence with sports cars paid off, Nissan eventually creating the S30 Fairlady Z, known in America and elsewhere as the 240Z"
https://www.evo.co.uk/nissan/22630/datsun-240z-rev...
"It was the concept of Yutaka Katayama and designed by Yoshihiko Matsuo"
https://www.classicandsportscar.com/features/buyer...
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff