Fiat announced Panda and 500 Mild Hybrid

[sjg]

11ah lithium batteries are the kinds of things used on low-end ebikes. Probably 1/3 to 1/2 the volume of a shoebox.

[Sport220]

I recently drove a 1.2 Panda rental for a few days, most fun car I've ever driven!
WOT everywhere, no need to brake for speed bumps, easy to get the fronts spinning and a good old handbrake

Must be nice with new 6 speed!

[Alucidnation]

Ot but what happened to the “Re:” at the beginning of ph article threads?

[Dale487]

gweaver said:

bakerstreet said:

I'd be interested to see what the real world benefits are in terms of running costs including servicing and road tax. I also predict that these types of engines will be the ones to avoid o the used car market in five years time. Incredible amounts of complexity for what I expect to be very minimal if any saving in running costs.

Mild hybrid systems aren't that complicated - I guess there are three main components:

• Integrated starter generator (replacing starter motor and alternator)
• Battery (small compared to a full hybrid like a Prius)
• Electronics

I'm willing to believe that the real world efficiency savings could be worth it, depending on driving style. Replacing failed components might hurt the wallet, but you wouldn't have to worry about DPF, DMF and AdBlue systems.

Most (but maybe not this one) are beefier starter motors and batteries - Starter Motor Plus or as someone else said Enhanced Stop/Start.

I'd like to see more manual cars with this - as most seem to be auto only eg the Golf MK8 mild hybrid is DSG only.

[GTEYE]

Moonpie21 said:

AmosMoses said:

They really now how to stretch out this platform

I'm going to say something divisive here, if it aint broke...

Having owned not only both a Panda and a 500 but a mini and had access to other small hatchbacks/city cars surely these are some of the most versatile and stylish available?

You can go cheap 1.2 or Abarth even diesel, customise in many ways and they are fun to drive. The Panda uses the same platform for 4 doors and has a little more practicality plus you can get a 4x4 which is likely more capable than most would need (just check out youtube).

With a few refreshes here and there the design and technology are still current, why not.

But are these minor refreshes enough to keep customers coming back?

If the average customer bought a new one in 2008 when it was launched and changed every 3 years , would they really shortly be contemplating their 5th car in a row that bar colours and very minor details hadn't changed in 12 years. I really doubt it and surely these customers would be lost to other marques.

I doubt Apple would be so successful now if they were still churning out 1st Gen iPhones...

[IrishAsal]

I'll hang on til '23. When there's a fully electric Panda planned, and hopefully the 4x4.

[Gandahar]

It's painful to watch FIAT race against the EU CO2 penalites after such a late start.

They have a big percentage of small cars as well which makes it both easier and harder for them. Their average CO2 due to small cars is lower than the average but getting down to the targets with small cars means they have to increase costs more as a percentage of the total car cost.

I wish them luck because small cars are more environmentally friendly all other things negated.

[robsco]

court said:

rare6499 said:

Six speed manual in a 500 - finally. I wonder if there’s any chance of it going in to an Abarth, only reason I haven’t got another one is the lack of a sixth get makes motorway work a bit of a pain.

IIRC the old 1.4 100hp was a 6 speed as well, it was just too weedy to stick in the Abarth so they used the old Alfa 5-speed.

It was indeed, shared engine and gearbox with the Panda 100HP.

[pppppppppppppppp]

When I read the headline I instantly thought it was going to be a cross between a 500 and a Panda. I'm disappointed.

[Toaster Pilot]

I’d be interested to try one when they’re released but struggle to see the point, if I’m honest! A full hybrid would have been an interesting step for cars in this segment but I’m not really sure what the actual practical gain is here?

[Dave Hedgehog]

Toaster Pilot said:

I’d be interested to try one when they’re released but struggle to see the point, if I’m honest! A full hybrid would have been an interesting step for cars in this segment but I’m not really sure what the actual practical gain is here?

i dont get hybrids, you have two lots of tech so lots more to go wrong, they do nothing for distance drivers as they wont regen cruising along a mway, there are reasonable gains in stop start traffic but if that's your main focus of driving get an EV by the end of this year there will be a pretty decent amount of choice at most price points.

10 years ago they made sense but not now

[Toaster Pilot]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i dont get hybrids, you have two lots of tech so lots more to go wrong, they do nothing for distance drivers as they wont regen cruising along a mway, there are reasonable gains in stop start traffic but if that's your main focus of driving get an EV by the end of this year there will be a pretty decent amount of choice at most price points.

10 years ago they made sense but not now

Surely a hybrid is still cheaper than a BEV yet cleaner than a diesel? That’s the justification for those that drive in town a lot, no?

[SamR380]

sjg said:

11ah lithium batteries are the kinds of things used on low-end ebikes. Probably 1/3 to 1/2 the volume of a shoebox.

Ah is a pretty confusing measure to use as it isn't a measure of absolute capacity. That will depend on the battery voltage. A 48V 11Ah battery has four times the capacity of a 12V 11Ah battery.

This is why most EVs quote kWh, as that shows how much power can be delivered for how long.

12V x 11Ah = 0.13kWh which as you suggest is not a lot. The new Renault Zoe's battery capacity, for instance, has a capacity of 52kWh.

Edited by SamR380 on Thursday 9th January 16:17

[Moonpie21]

GTEYE said:

But are these minor refreshes enough to keep customers coming back?

If the average customer bought a new one in 2008 when it was launched and changed every 3 years , would they really shortly be contemplating their 5th car in a row that bar colours and very minor details hadn't changed in 12 years. I really doubt it and surely these customers would be lost to other marques.

I doubt Apple would be so successful now if they were still churning out 1st Gen iPhones...

I get what you are saying but I don't think any buyer stays in the same brand or segment for more than 2 of those 3 year cycles.

Personal circumstances change.

Likewise I went from a Panda to a Jeep Renegade and a 500 to an A45

My circumstances changed, if I'd not had a child and needed more practicality my choices may have been different and I may have stayed. I think the Panda and 500 target a type of buyer very well, but in all reality those buyers eventually mature? and move on (they may come back at a later stage in life or under different circumstances).

As for iPhones much like the Panda and 500 they have stayed pretty much the same but the technology in them has been refreshed to keep up, there aren't any subsequent models that have been a real change since the gen 1.

Edited by Moonpie21 on Thursday 9th January 15:06

[paralla]

Ladies and gentlemen (and those of you that are yet to decide). I give you a photo of a 12 Volt, 11 Amp Hour Lithium Ion battery.....



http://www.lithiumion-batterypack.com/product/1865...

[romac]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i dont get hybrids, you have two lots of tech so lots more to go wrong, they do nothing for distance drivers as they wont regen cruising along a mway, there are reasonable gains in stop start traffic but if that's your main focus of driving get an EV by the end of this year there will be a pretty decent amount of choice at most price points.

10 years ago they made sense but not now

Reliability is not proving to be a problem with eg Toyota over the past 20 years. Their hybrids are among the most reliable of a reliable brand. They have no clutch or gearbox to go wrong. The Starter / Generator is large enough to start the ICE almost silently, and is not strained. They regen from the engine, tapping off surplus energy, whilst running on the motorway and elsewhere, leaving you with a well-filled battery when you reach a 40/30 limit. Admittedly, they give their best economy in town (50-60 mpg), but I have found that on 70-limit roads mine gives about the same as my previous diesel (48-55 mpg). (My experience is 60k in 3 years in an Auris that was 3 years old when I bought it)

Toaster Pilot said:

Surely a hybrid is still cheaper than a BEV yet cleaner than a diesel? That’s the justification for those that drive in town a lot, no?

Agreed. Plus they can refuel at the same rate as a petrol car! So 500-mile journeys are do-able in a day as well

[BVB]

Fantastic. Fiat knew not to rush, and hence provide the market with a credible hybrid. The 500 also still looks brilliant, timeless.

[samoht]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i dont get hybrids ... they do nothing for distance drivers as they wont regen cruising along a mway...

It only takes about 50 hp to maintain speed on a flat motorway. However, most ppl don't want 50hp cars because they're so slow to gain speed joining the motorway, climbing hills etc. Because a hybrid can give temporary bursts of extra power from the battery, the main petrol engine can be smaller, just enough power to maintain a constant speed on the flat. This makes it more economical on the motorway (because a smaller engine at full throttle is more efficient than a bigger one with a nearly closed throttle for the same power, as long as you keep the revs down).

(Not that these Fiats have enough battery/motor to do this, but for hybrids in general like the Prius)

Edited by samoht on Saturday 11th January 08:30

[Macron]

1) energy recovery during acceleration. Does that just make it parasitic?

2) yes I know we all slid around the vinyl in the back of our dad's Cortina and no-one died (save those who were involved in accidents) and it's not the be all and end all, but will the Panda still be zero ncap rated?

ETA child occupant safety, 16%. Putting your kids in that?!?

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/fiat/panda/341...

[Toaster Pilot]

Macron said:

1) energy recovery during acceleration. Does that just make it parasitic?

2) yes I know we all slid around the vinyl in the back of our dad's Cortina and no-one died (save those who were involved in accidents) and it's not the be all and end all, but will the Panda still be zero ncap rated?

ETA child occupant safety, 16%. Putting your kids in that?!?

https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/fiat/panda/341...

OMG SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!

Ignoring of course that a lot of the mark-down is due to it not having ISOFIX, so child seats are harder to fit, and that they can’t be fitted securely to the centre seat (in a Panda???)

NCAP has become hugely reliant on tech/spec additions to cars that weren’t deemed to be important at all just a few years ago (and aren’t required). Forget your dad’s Cortina, what about previous 5 star cars from 10 years ago that would get slaughtered today, are they death traps?