Subaru vs bike head on collision.
Discussion
I'm not sure anyone's had a crash where there wasn't some speed involved, so you can always naively claim they were going too fast. No one learns anything from that until you reach the point that we all sit still.
He presumably didn't have crash on the section of road before it, or the section of road before that...
He presumably didn't have crash on the section of road before it, or the section of road before that...
Drawweight said:
Interesting analysis very well presented.
But how do you explain that the car following (presumably at approximately the same speed) managed to take the same corner without going right onto the other side.
He would have probably had additional visual clues from the car ahead of him.But how do you explain that the car following (presumably at approximately the same speed) managed to take the same corner without going right onto the other side.
Falconer said:
Dr Jekyll said:
A1VDY said:
The problem here with talk of vanishing point, heel and toe, racing line, cornering at 0.8g ect ect is that we're talking of the public roads here.
All this b
ks needs to be kept for the track..
Vanishing point is a road driving concept with no relevance to the track.All this b
ks needs to be kept for the track.. MJK 24 said:
I see these chaps have gone into almost forensic levels of detail into this crash.
Really interesting if you’ve a spare ten minutes handy. Made me look at something that looks very straightforward and cut and dried completely differently.
https://youtu.be/QpGb5LFzKtE
Thanks that was really interesting.Really interesting if you’ve a spare ten minutes handy. Made me look at something that looks very straightforward and cut and dried completely differently.
https://youtu.be/QpGb5LFzKtE
The guy really does his analysis in a good and detailed way.
Drawweight said:
Interesting analysis very well presented.
But how do you explain that the car following (presumably at approximately the same speed) managed to take the same corner without going right onto the other side.
Lots of dodgy corners like that in the Peak District and you learn to be careful when pressing on. Dips/bumps etc are a fact of life up here and although the clip is interesting the degree of mitigation it provides is tiny. My view is if the driver knew the road he messed up, and if he didn't know the road he was driving carelessly. It's not news that some roads are bumpy!But how do you explain that the car following (presumably at approximately the same speed) managed to take the same corner without going right onto the other side.
Dont like rolls said:
Falconer said:
Dr Jekyll said:
A1VDY said:
The problem here with talk of vanishing point, heel and toe, racing line, cornering at 0.8g ect ect is that we're talking of the public roads here.
All this bks needs to be kept for the track..
Vanishing point is a road driving concept with no relevance to the track.All this b
ks needs to be kept for the track.. Firstly, I was agreeing with the comment re vanishing point. This is a good technique that everyone should know.
Secondly, I was pointing out that a lot of the conjecture re the car was rubbish probably mostly from people who have never owned a Subaru. At no point did I claim any driving prowess on my behalf.
That crash was down to careless driving, would have happened in any car.
Dr Jekyll said:
0ddball said:
So basically he was still going too fast for a corner on a road he wasn't familiar with.
'Basically' he was going too fast for that corner b]because[/b] he didn't correctly assess the hazards, and this error was partly because the hazards were genuinely hard to spot, gradient, sudden deterioration in road surface. Then his eye was caught by the very poor surface on the left which both distracted him from the oncoming traffic and prompted him to move to the right.It was complicated, the holes in the cheese lined up. We'd all like to say 'it happened because he was a hooligan' because of course that means it couldn't possibly have happened to us. In reality he made mistakes, and analysing why he made them isn't making excuses for him, it's a way of learning and avoiding them.
Krikkit said:
Yep that's my take too - frankly I might've been caught out on that corner in exactly the same way. Looking at the footage again (which is actually from the dash cam a bit higher than the driver's eye view) you can see how little there was to see before you were right on top of the corner.
I know that hindsight is 20:20 but you see the road markings disappear/the bend appearing. That alone would have had me braking.If you cant see where the road is going and still carry on at the same speed that just seems foolish.
Krikkit said:
frankly I might've been caught out on that corner in exactly the same way. Looking at the footage again (which is actually from the dash cam a bit higher than the driver's eye view) you can see how little there was to see before you were right on top of the corner.
It's hard to say...I would have been coming along the straight well into 3 figures and braked hard as soon as I couldn't see where the road went.
Certainly the poor road surface and bumps had an effect but as mentioned up there, you have to expect that
The highways dept want a kick up the arse though - to resurface a straight road and then NOT the corner beggars belief.
From the analysis of that video I would say it's 70% the fault of the driver and 30% down to the road.
How would a modern car with ESP and traction control behave round the same corner?
I have a highly modified newage WRX from the same era and unless you're in the right frame of mind (committed and alert) it's quite a chore on B roads compared to more modern performance cars, the latest issue of Evo highlights this fact when they pair a WRX against an A45 AMG.
For those who knew the owner/car I wonder if he had DCCD and if so what setting he had it on as that will massively change the behaviour of the car round corners.
How would a modern car with ESP and traction control behave round the same corner?
I have a highly modified newage WRX from the same era and unless you're in the right frame of mind (committed and alert) it's quite a chore on B roads compared to more modern performance cars, the latest issue of Evo highlights this fact when they pair a WRX against an A45 AMG.
For those who knew the owner/car I wonder if he had DCCD and if so what setting he had it on as that will massively change the behaviour of the car round corners.
V8RX7 said:
It's hard to say...
I would have been coming along the straight well into 3 figures and braked hard as soon as I couldn't see where the road went.
Certainly the poor road surface and bumps had an effect but as mentioned up there, you have to expect that
The highways dept want a kick up the arse though - to resurface a straight road and then NOT the corner beggars belief.
I would have been coming along the straight well into 3 figures and braked hard as soon as I couldn't see where the road went.
Certainly the poor road surface and bumps had an effect but as mentioned up there, you have to expect that
The highways dept want a kick up the arse though - to resurface a straight road and then NOT the corner beggars belief.
Countdown said:
I know that hindsight is 20:20 but you see the road markings disappear/the bend appearing. That alone would have had me braking.
If you cant see where the road is going and still carry on at the same speed that just seems foolish.
I agree with both of you, and most of the time I'd be in the right frame of mind to catch it, but I can definitely see a case where after a long day/early start I might be lulled into complacency on a well-surfaced straight.If you cant see where the road is going and still carry on at the same speed that just seems foolish.
As noted whoever maintains the road needs a kick up the arse - no signage to indicate a bend, no resurfacing despite the rubbish state of the inside edge, no smoothing of significant bumps.
untakenname said:
From the analysis of that video I would say it's 70% the fault of the driver and 30% down to the road.
How would a modern car with ESP and traction control behave round the same corner?
I have a highly modified newage WRX from the same era and unless you're in the right frame of mind (committed and alert) it's quite a chore on B roads compared to more modern performance cars, the latest issue of Evo highlights this fact when they pair a WRX against an A45 AMG.
For those who knew the owner/car I wonder if he had DCCD and if so what setting he had it on as that will massively change the behaviour of the car round corners.
I don't think it's the roads fault at all.How would a modern car with ESP and traction control behave round the same corner?
I have a highly modified newage WRX from the same era and unless you're in the right frame of mind (committed and alert) it's quite a chore on B roads compared to more modern performance cars, the latest issue of Evo highlights this fact when they pair a WRX against an A45 AMG.
For those who knew the owner/car I wonder if he had DCCD and if so what setting he had it on as that will massively change the behaviour of the car round corners.
Although I would have thought that car on decent tyres could have made that corner.
Doesn't matter - mistakes were made , prices were paid.
carl_w said:
untakenname said:
For those who knew the owner/car I wonder if he had DCCD and if so what setting he had it on as that will massively change the behaviour of the car round corners.
It's a WR1 so it does have DCCD.It was careless driving , nothing particularly wrong with car or road. The guy, for whatever reason wasn’t paying attention for a few seconds. We’ve all done it at sometime (anyone who says they haven’t is deluded), and 99.9% of the time you get away with it. This guy was unlucky and the biker even more unlucky unfortunately .
Wasn't the driver jailed for Dangerous Driving as a result of this accident? As part of his defence he was entitled to appoint his own Expert who may have cast enough doubt to avoid a conviction for dangerous, were the circumstances able to support that.
Notwithstanding it's a relative high bar to prove Dangerous and the court has a fall back to convict Careless if Dangerous hasn't been satisfied yet the driving fell below the notional standard.
Also bear in mind the court likely had access to more footage than published by the press.
In other words, following an exhaustive examination of events by the Police and Courts, the guy was convicted. Unless he now alleges the conviction is unsafe, sleeping dogs are best left as they are.
Notwithstanding it's a relative high bar to prove Dangerous and the court has a fall back to convict Careless if Dangerous hasn't been satisfied yet the driving fell below the notional standard.
Also bear in mind the court likely had access to more footage than published by the press.
In other words, following an exhaustive examination of events by the Police and Courts, the guy was convicted. Unless he now alleges the conviction is unsafe, sleeping dogs are best left as they are.
janesmith1950 said:
In other words, following an exhaustive examination of events by the Police and Courts, the guy was convicted. Unless he now alleges the conviction is unsafe, sleeping dogs are best left as they are.
Have you watched the video?You've heard the saying 'It's only a mistake if you don't learn from it'?
As someone who's passed the IAM and RoSPA advanced tests and rides motorcycles I am looking forward to Part 2.
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