Subaru vs bike head on collision.

Subaru vs bike head on collision.

Author
Discussion

carinaman

14,542 posts

124 months

Wednesday 25th March
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janesmith1950 said:
carinaman said:
Someone thinking the driver is 70% responsible and the road 30% isn't much difference from a 70/30 split in a jury is
There was no jury.
Point, Set and Match. You win.

xjay1337

14,063 posts

70 months

Wednesday 25th March
quotequote all
Aaa. said:
xjay1337 said:
having watched the interesting youtube video actually , it has made me wonder

If the subaru was actually a hyundai i20 and the driver was betty, 55 , grandmother , instead of darren, car enthusiast would they have been sent to prison.
By that logic 'Bettys' manage that corner everyday. Betty would have braked. Betty wouldn't have crashed and ploughed into a motorcyclist.

Darren didn't brake he was speeding and he crashed.
Oh no I get that, but I wouldn't call 66 speeding in the way that if he was doing 86.

And of course I'm sure many people make it around that corner without crashing.
But my question is that I'm sure there have been plenty of similar cases on other roads in other scenarios where people do equally STUPID things .

The demographic of the perpetrator does , I think , have an impact when it comes to the punishment

As I said had it been a little old lady who made a momentary mistake they would I very much doubt be in jail right now.

Dont like rolls

2,546 posts

6 months

Wednesday 25th March
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Oh no I get that, but I wouldn't call 66 speeding in the way that if he was doing 86.

And of course I'm sure many people make it around that corner without crashing.
But my question is that I'm sure there have been plenty of similar cases on other roads in other scenarios where people do equally STUPID things .

The demographic of the perpetrator does , I think , have an impact when it comes to the punishment

As I said had it been a little old lady who made a momentary mistake they would I very much doubt be in jail right now.
A little old lady would not have been in a stiffly sprung, quickly driven car on a Hoon. She would have been in a car with sufficient compliance in its suspension and driven at a speed that the corner would not have "made her" wash out into an innocent chap on a bike coming the other way..

cherryowen

9,293 posts

156 months

Wednesday 25th March
quotequote all
MJK 24 said:
I see these chaps have gone into almost forensic levels of detail into this crash.

Really interesting if you’ve a spare ten minutes handy. Made me look at something that looks very straightforward and cut and dried completely differently.

https://youtu.be/QpGb5LFzKtE
Good video, and looking forward to Part 2.

There is certainly a part of "being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, on your side of the road" not being adhered to. Having said that, the condition of the road surface, the signage and lack thereof, and the stone wall on the left preventing vision through the corner doesn't help someone unfamiliar with the road.



Hungrymc

4,373 posts

89 months

Wednesday 25th March
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Oh no I get that, but I wouldn't call 66 speeding in the way that if he was doing 86.

And of course I'm sure many people make it around that corner without crashing.
But my question is that I'm sure there have been plenty of similar cases on other roads in other scenarios where people do equally STUPID things .

The demographic of the perpetrator does , I think , have an impact when it comes to the punishment

As I said had it been a little old lady who made a momentary mistake they would I very much doubt be in jail right now.
From a previous thread, I think “dangerous driving” has to be prolonged and intentional with major risk.

GravelBen

13,990 posts

182 months

Wednesday 25th March
quotequote all
Dont like rolls said:
A little old lady would not have been in a stiffly sprung, quickly driven car on a Hoon. She would have been in a car with sufficient compliance in its suspension and driven at a speed that the corner would not have "made her" wash out into an innocent chap on a bike coming the other way..
You seem to be missing his point completely.

The driver made a mistake and apparently wasn't paying enough attention to the road, unfortunately for the biker it happened at a very bad moment. 10 seconds earlier or later their paths wouldn't have coincided and the driver would have just had a big fright, thought about his life choices and carried on at a slower pace. I'd say most of us have had a moment like that at some point in our lives.

If a little old lady had run wide on that corner through not paying enough attention (which is quite likely to have happened at other times) at the same moment with the same consequences, would they have received the same punishment or would it have just been shrugged off as a momentary lapse and 'she's already been punished enough with guilt' etc?

Trying to say a little old lady wouldn't have made a mistake is just dodging the question, I see little old ladies driving without paying attention quite often!

Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 25th March 22:53

RB Will

6,017 posts

192 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
Wonder if the road is as bad on the other side?
Could be that on the trip to the meet he got to the corner and navigated it absolutely fine at 60ish so thought it would be safe to do so on the return trip however the inside was a lot bumpier and looks like more of a drop off for the road going that way so maybe 60 was not possible

NNH

1,021 posts

84 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
RB Will said:
Wonder if the road is as bad on the other side?
Could be that on the trip to the meet he got to the corner and navigated it absolutely fine at 60ish so thought it would be safe to do so on the return trip however the inside was a lot bumpier and looks like more of a drop off for the road going that way so maybe 60 was not possible
The video makes the corner's challenging nature look much more obvious from the opposite side.

Dr Jekyll

18,973 posts

213 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
NNH said:
RB Will said:
Wonder if the road is as bad on the other side?
Could be that on the trip to the meet he got to the corner and navigated it absolutely fine at 60ish so thought it would be safe to do so on the return trip however the inside was a lot bumpier and looks like more of a drop off for the road going that way so maybe 60 was not possible
The video makes the corner's challenging nature look much more obvious from the opposite side.
I always regard 'I know the road' as the motorists equivalent of 'I'm sure this gun isn't loaded' but in this case recognising the bend could have helped. But if he'd only made one trip down that road and in the opposite direction it would be quite an achievement to recognise it anyway.

Dont like rolls

2,546 posts

6 months

Thursday 26th March
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If you drive a car with such stiff suspension that it cannot cope with that road surface/change of level, then you are driving (have made) an unsafe car for such roads/public roads ?.............

ExPat2B

1,964 posts

152 months

Thursday 26th March
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This is interesting.

What I would really like to see is video of regular normal traffic taking this corner. The video mentions that "several cars crossed the line while filming"

If this really is the case that a high percentage of cars cross the line, then this does seem excessive.

It really makes you think about how your public road persona results in you being perceived by the courts.

Driving a modified, stickered up car seems to lead to what can only be described as predudice

I really doubt Dave is his Mondeo would have received the same level of sanction as this guy, I think he would have been able to go with a guilty on careless and fight the dangerous driving charge at the very least.

Dangerous driving is defined as

"the way he drives falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver; and (2) it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving that way would be dangerous. "

If that road causes normal motorists to regularly misjudge it in the same way, then I don't think dangerous driving would stick.

Myself I would be pulling any stickers or obvious external mods off my car.

CoolHands

10,573 posts

147 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
Yet dave in his mondeo doesn't nearly criple someone.

I don't see why everyone is getting excited about some walt in a hi-viz doing a 3rd rate analysis to plug his own driver training.

janesmith1950

5,318 posts

47 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
My understanding is that the subject of the OP crossed the white lines because he was unable to stay in lane. That's not the same as choosing to move out of it.

carinaman

14,542 posts

124 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
Somebody on a motorcycle taking that bend from about 37 minutes in to give another view and perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inMyhSDQX1w

Dont like rolls

2,546 posts

6 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
The car ahead did not seem to have a problem........my bet is still a stupidly stiff front end on that car.

I drive similar roads every day, the worst cars to drive them in are the super stiff "road" cars, they are the ones that become unpredictable sooner or later and WILL catch you one day (and are fking uncomfortable) , what we see here is exactly that.

Some of the features (normally good) of the car became big liabilities, skittish handling/braking on "quickly undulating" ground and broken surfaces is the obvious conclusion for me, Plus: - the other aspects of speed etc.


Edited by Dont like rolls on Thursday 26th March 09:30

GravelBen

13,990 posts

182 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
Yet dave in his mondeo doesn't nearly criple someone.
But sometimes he does, and doesn't necessarily receive the same punishment because he isn't perceived as 'hooning' and such. Thats the whole point you're missing.

janesmith1950

5,318 posts

47 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
GravelBen said:
But sometimes he does, and doesn't necessarily receive the same punishment because he isn't perceived as 'hooning' and such. Thats the whole point you're missing.
I don't know about NZ, but dangerous driving in the UK is measured against the objective notional careful and competent driver. The test doesn't deviate due to the attributes of the driver, be they a granny or highly trained Police response driver.

The sentencing may vary due to the circumstances; a granny having a singular but serious lapse of concentration might be sentenced differently to someone committing a prolonged course of dangerous driving even though it ends in the same result. It will be down to the aggravating and mitigating circumstances.

It's a much preferable system to one where you're faced with an arbitrary fixed punishment whatever the circumstances.

KAgantua

1,740 posts

83 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
Yet dave in his mondeo doesn't nearly criple someone.

I don't see why everyone is getting excited about some walt in a hi-viz doing a 3rd rate analysis to plug his own driver training.
Exactly. Dress it up how you want. Guy was driving too fast. Hint: If you regularly have corners 'surprise you' midway through them, you are going too fast.

ExPat2B

1,964 posts

152 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
KAgantua said:
CoolHands said:
Yet dave in his mondeo doesn't nearly criple someone.

I don't see why everyone is getting excited about some walt in a hi-viz doing a 3rd rate analysis to plug his own driver training.
Exactly. Dress it up how you want. Guy was driving too fast. Hint: If you regularly have corners 'surprise you' midway through them, you are going too fast.
However the reverse also applies. If a corner regularly catches people out, the corner is dangerous, not the driver.


janesmith1950

5,318 posts

47 months

Thursday 26th March
quotequote all
ExPat2B said:
However the reverse also applies. If a corner regularly catches people out, the corner is dangerous, not the driver.
Totally agree.

You can usually spot such a corner in advance of arriving there by any or a combination of;

- 'SLOW' paint marking on the road
- Triangle hazard 'bend' sign on approach
- black and white chevron signs on the outside of the corner
- High friction road surface

I wonder how many of these are present around the bend here?