Subaru vs bike head on collision.

Subaru vs bike head on collision.

Author
Discussion

heebeegeetee

26,901 posts

202 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
WinstonWolf said:
The professional investigator in the video, where does he say it's 100% driver error?
If you mean the YouTuber, he seems to be saying it’s 100% the road. Maybe in part 2 he’ll address the driver. He doesn’t explain the lack of damage to the grass verge on the outside of the corner, which indicates that few people have difficulty there. He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

Maybe he’ll address all my concerns in part 2. smile

768

6,558 posts

50 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain the lack of damage to the grass verge on the outside of the corner, which indicates that few people have difficulty there
Not even the Subaru ended up on the grass verge on the outside of the corner?

RobM77

34,033 posts

188 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
I don't think the You Tube guy is saying it's not the guy's fault, he's just summarising what led to the incident and what we can all learn from it.

One thing I do disagree with is his mention of the national speed limit. On most rural roads, the national speed limit is an irrelevance, because before you get there you're limited by vision and grip. All the lanes around my house are NSL, but 60mph is not remotely safe on any of them in any conditions, even for a fleeting moment. I realise the You Tube guy then goes on to say that the preceding miles were flowing and safe for progress at the NSL, but that is no reason at all to treat what's ahead as safe for the NSL. We're not just talking about drifting to the other side of the road either; anything could be over that brow and past that limit point, even on your side of the road. I'm including bumps in the road, mud on the road etc, as well as the obvious such as a sheep, a stationary car, crazy overtaker etc.

The key lesson we can all learn from this is simply to not assume what's beyond limit points, blind brows or similar. I'm guilty of this, I'm sure we all are, but it's something we need to constantly remind ourselves of.

V8RX7

19,779 posts

217 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.


RobM77

34,033 posts

188 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
V8RX7 said:
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.
He did say he saw three people drift over to the other side of the road whilst he was there. Also, if you watch one of the aerial shots it shows an unassuming member of the public in a hatchback pootling over the brow, and you can see they brake suddenly on the exit of the corner, which is unusual - it clearly took them by surprise too; the difference being they were going very slowly to start with.

vonhosen

36,595 posts

171 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
V8RX7 said:
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.
True picture of what?
The camera footage alone wouldn't offer much.

vonhosen

36,595 posts

171 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
V8RX7 said:
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.
He did say he saw three people drift over to the other side of the road whilst he was there. Also, if you watch one of the aerial shots it shows an unassuming member of the public in a hatchback pootling over the brow, and you can see they brake suddenly on the exit of the corner, which is unusual - it clearly took them by surprise too; the difference being they were going very slowly to start with.
How many people didn't drift over in that time though?
What were the common factors in those that did?

RobM77

34,033 posts

188 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
V8RX7 said:
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.
He did say he saw three people drift over to the other side of the road whilst he was there. Also, if you watch one of the aerial shots it shows an unassuming member of the public in a hatchback pootling over the brow, and you can see they brake suddenly on the exit of the corner, which is unusual - it clearly took them by surprise too; the difference being they were going very slowly to start with.
How many people didn't drift over in that time though?
What were the common factors in those that did?
Both answered in my post just before the one you quoted. They made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and blind brow".

vonhosen

36,595 posts

171 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
V8RX7 said:
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.
He did say he saw three people drift over to the other side of the road whilst he was there. Also, if you watch one of the aerial shots it shows an unassuming member of the public in a hatchback pootling over the brow, and you can see they brake suddenly on the exit of the corner, which is unusual - it clearly took them by surprise too; the difference being they were going very slowly to start with.
How many people didn't drift over in that time though?
What were the common factors in those that did?
Both answered in my post just before the one you quoted. They made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and blind brow".
But you've just made a blind assumption. You don't know that those three individuals made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and brow. They equally may have all not been concentrating because they were thinking about what they were going to have for dinner, or because they were listening to something engrossing on the radio, or sending a text etc etc.
We wouldn't know without a lot further investigation into each case to find what commonalities exist in the input side of the equation to result in the output.

RobM77

34,033 posts

188 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
V8RX7 said:
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.
He did say he saw three people drift over to the other side of the road whilst he was there. Also, if you watch one of the aerial shots it shows an unassuming member of the public in a hatchback pootling over the brow, and you can see they brake suddenly on the exit of the corner, which is unusual - it clearly took them by surprise too; the difference being they were going very slowly to start with.
How many people didn't drift over in that time though?
What were the common factors in those that did?
Both answered in my post just before the one you quoted. They made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and blind brow".
But you've just made a blind assumption. You don't know that those three individuals made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and brow. They equally may have all not been concentrating because they were thinking about what they were going to have for dinner, or because they were listening to something engrossing on the radio, or sending a text etc etc.
We wouldn't know without a lot further investigation into each case to find what commonalities exist in the input side of the equation to result in the output.
They proceeded over the brow at an unsafe speed, so yes, they did assume the bend didn't tighten. I can't see any other explanation? Nobody's going to knowingly enter a tight bend at a speed appropriate for a shallow one. If they were distracted, as you suggest might be the case, that still counts as making an assumption about what was coming up, rather than driving to the vision available.

vonhosen

36,595 posts

171 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
V8RX7 said:
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.
He did say he saw three people drift over to the other side of the road whilst he was there. Also, if you watch one of the aerial shots it shows an unassuming member of the public in a hatchback pootling over the brow, and you can see they brake suddenly on the exit of the corner, which is unusual - it clearly took them by surprise too; the difference being they were going very slowly to start with.
How many people didn't drift over in that time though?
What were the common factors in those that did?
Both answered in my post just before the one you quoted. They made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and blind brow".
But you've just made a blind assumption. You don't know that those three individuals made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and brow. They equally may have all not been concentrating because they were thinking about what they were going to have for dinner, or because they were listening to something engrossing on the radio, or sending a text etc etc.
We wouldn't know without a lot further investigation into each case to find what commonalities exist in the input side of the equation to result in the output.
They proceeded over the brow at an unsafe speed, so yes, they did assume the bend didn't tighten. I can't see any other explanation? Nobody's going to knowingly enter a tight bend at a speed appropriate for a shallow one. If they were distracted, as you suggest might be the case, that still counts as making an assumption about what was coming up, rather than driving to the vision available.
Being distracted means you aren't looking at or assessing what is coming up, you are elsewhere.
Being distracted means you can be travelling in a straight line at an unsafe speed.
Your present trumps anything in the future as far as you are concerned.

We don't know if it's distraction, mis-reading etc without investigating (which means talking & honesty from the 3 drivers).




Edited by vonhosen on Friday 27th March 13:46

carinaman

15,012 posts

126 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
With regard to driving too fast for the visibility available and driving over brows without knowing what's on the other side, there's a junction on the left just after that bend.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inMyhSDQX1w

IJWS15

349 posts

39 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
I am struggling with some of the views expressed here, there is only one cause - driver error.

Driving his own car so he should know it’s behaviour - how many people here have driven a Morris Minor on cross-ply tyres in the wet. You stay within the car’s limits.

Road - You drive based on what you can, and cannot, see in front of you. Clean? Level? gravel? Potholes . . . If the driver can’t handle them he is going too fast.

Many years ago there was a documentary about training TV police drivers, 3+ instructor hooning around at 100+ on public roads. At one point the instructor reminds them of their worst nightmare - meeting themselves coming the other way. Some on here need to think about that.

RobM77

34,033 posts

188 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
V8RX7 said:
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.
He did say he saw three people drift over to the other side of the road whilst he was there. Also, if you watch one of the aerial shots it shows an unassuming member of the public in a hatchback pootling over the brow, and you can see they brake suddenly on the exit of the corner, which is unusual - it clearly took them by surprise too; the difference being they were going very slowly to start with.
How many people didn't drift over in that time though?
What were the common factors in those that did?
Both answered in my post just before the one you quoted. They made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and blind brow".
But you've just made a blind assumption. You don't know that those three individuals made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and brow. They equally may have all not been concentrating because they were thinking about what they were going to have for dinner, or because they were listening to something engrossing on the radio, or sending a text etc etc.
We wouldn't know without a lot further investigation into each case to find what commonalities exist in the input side of the equation to result in the output.
They proceeded over the brow at an unsafe speed, so yes, they did assume the bend didn't tighten. I can't see any other explanation? Nobody's going to knowingly enter a tight bend at a speed appropriate for a shallow one. If they were distracted, as you suggest might be the case, that still counts as making an assumption about what was coming up, rather than driving to the vision available.
Being distracted means you aren't looking at or assessing what is coming up, you are elsewhere.
Being distracted means you can be travelling in a straight line at an unsafe speed.
Your present trumps anything in the future as far as you are concerned.

We don't know if it's distraction, mis-reading etc without investigating (which means talking & honesty from the 3 drivers).

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 27th March 13:46
Yes, and when you are distracted you're making an assumption that something unusual isn't about to happen that'll put you behind bars...

carinaman

15,012 posts

126 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
IJWS15 said:
I am struggling with some of the views expressed here, there is only one cause - driver error.
How many accidents have you had on the road?

I've had a few and therefore know from experience accidents usually have multiple contributory factors. The last one was just before I renewed my RoSPA advanced test achieving a Silver. I've failed it once, but never got a Bronze grade. I did the RoSPA test as the IAM examiner mentioned the RoSPA test me when I passed my IAM test.

How many road accidents only have one contributory factor?

If you watch the video, the chap that made it does say in the first few minutes 'What can we learn from this accident'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpGb5LFzKtE&t=...


One of the issues raised is the bump in the road and the importance of suspension travel.

He also does a Mathematical diagram. I saw the Oxford University Press book for A-level Maths, it was Applied or Further Mathematics. One of the end of chapter exercises shows a drawing of a Motorcyclist going around a corner with the forces and angles. I remember similar diagrams in the various issues of Roadcraft I've seen. In Part 1 he trails Part 2 in which he says he'll cover what Roadcraft says about such bends.


What's so difficult to understand that other drivers and road users could learn from the accident and use that information to improve their driving, helping make them better, safer drivers?

Edited by carinaman on Friday 27th March 14:01

vonhosen

36,595 posts

171 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
vonhosen said:
RobM77 said:
V8RX7 said:
heebeegeetee said:
He doesn’t explain how most people drive around that typical country bend without a problem. Imo he gives the impression that it’s unlikely anyone would manage safely.

It may be that in most cases there isn't anyone coming the other way

A camera monitoring it for a few days would quickly determine the true picture.
He did say he saw three people drift over to the other side of the road whilst he was there. Also, if you watch one of the aerial shots it shows an unassuming member of the public in a hatchback pootling over the brow, and you can see they brake suddenly on the exit of the corner, which is unusual - it clearly took them by surprise too; the difference being they were going very slowly to start with.
How many people didn't drift over in that time though?
What were the common factors in those that did?
Both answered in my post just before the one you quoted. They made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and blind brow".
But you've just made a blind assumption. You don't know that those three individuals made a blind assumption of what was beyond the limit point and brow. They equally may have all not been concentrating because they were thinking about what they were going to have for dinner, or because they were listening to something engrossing on the radio, or sending a text etc etc.
We wouldn't know without a lot further investigation into each case to find what commonalities exist in the input side of the equation to result in the output.
They proceeded over the brow at an unsafe speed, so yes, they did assume the bend didn't tighten. I can't see any other explanation? Nobody's going to knowingly enter a tight bend at a speed appropriate for a shallow one. If they were distracted, as you suggest might be the case, that still counts as making an assumption about what was coming up, rather than driving to the vision available.
Being distracted means you aren't looking at or assessing what is coming up, you are elsewhere.
Being distracted means you can be travelling in a straight line at an unsafe speed.
Your present trumps anything in the future as far as you are concerned.

We don't know if it's distraction, mis-reading etc without investigating (which means talking & honesty from the 3 drivers).

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 27th March 13:46
Yes, and when you are distracted you're making an assumption that something unusual isn't about to happen that'll put you behind bars...
Saying that every collision is assumption related is as helpful as saying every collision is speed related because if they hadn't been moving they wouldn't have hit it.

blade7

9,444 posts

170 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
This reminds me of a thread a few years back, where the poster lost control on a wet dual carriageway, and hit a stationary car on the grass bank that had done the same thing earlier. Standing water was the excuse given for the 2 cars coming to grief at exactly the same spot. The fact that probably thousands of other cars and trucks passed safely by wasn't relevant apparently.

carinaman

15,012 posts

126 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
blade7 said:
This reminds me of a thread a few years back, where the poster lost control on a wet dual carriageway, and hit a stationary car on the grass bank that had done the same thing earlier. Standing water was the excuse given for the 2 cars coming to grief at exactly the same spot. The fact that probably thousands of other cars and trucks passed safely by wasn't relevant apparently.
But thanks to the advent of the Dashcam we can see that many Dashcam users seem to get themselves into foreseeable situations that many mere mortals, not just PH Driving Gods, would have managed to avoid.

Perhaps the video of this Impreza Driver taking out the motorcyclist confirms that point?

MJK 24

5,488 posts

190 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
blade7 said:
This reminds me of a thread a few years back, where the poster lost control on a wet dual carriageway, and hit a stationary car on the grass bank that had done the same thing earlier. Standing water was the excuse given for the 2 cars coming to grief at exactly the same spot. The fact that probably thousands of other cars and trucks passed safely by wasn't relevant apparently.
Lotus Elan and Porsche 944 or 968?

I actually drove past that after it happened. It was on the A14 near the M1/M6. Horrible day.

Krikkit

18,287 posts

135 months

Friday 27th March
quotequote all
We're just going round and round in circles again like this thread used to be... Give it a rest...