Subaru vs bike head on collision.
Discussion
gazza285 said:
Countdown said:
gazza285 said:
Can I be the first to suggest that it is the motorcyclist’s fault, because I am surprised it hasn’t come up yet.
To be fair if he hadn't been there none of this would have happened. Shall we say 50:50? 
gazza285 said:
Countdown said:
gazza285 said:
Can I be the first to suggest that it is the motorcyclist’s fault, because I am surprised it hasn’t come up yet.
To be fair if he hadn't been there none of this would have happened. Shall we say 50:50? MJK 24 said:
I have read that. The bit about (historically) being taught to apply throttle to stabilise the vehicle through the bend is the main point he contests. A case (he might say) of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing? Some of the issues (from the driving manuals he quotes) about being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road, is nonsense to me. These driving book writers have never met a vehicle that takes the whole width of the road round a blind bend. Again these books say about not crossing the centre line. Why not if it improves your view, and allows you to see (in the bend in question) the damaged edge earlier? At that point you would be turning in more, and a decision to go onto the (narrow) strip of grass rather than hit the bike is easier to take and accomplish.
Pica-Pica said:
MJK 24 said:
I have read that. The bit about (historically) being taught to apply throttle to stabilise the vehicle through the bend is the main point he contests. A case (he might say) of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing? Some of the issues (from the driving manuals he quotes) about being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road, is nonsense to me. These driving book writers have never met a vehicle that takes the whole width of the road round a blind bend. Again these books say about not crossing the centre line. Why not if it improves your view, and allows you to see (in the bend in question) the damaged edge earlier? At that point you would be turning in more, and a decision to go onto the (narrow) strip of grass rather than hit the bike is easier to take and accomplish.
Incidentally, many advanced drivers don't think track skills transfer to the road, but I firmly believe that they do. My reasoning is that driving a car on track fast takes two skills: 1) car control, which obviously shouldn't feature in safer road driving unless something goes terribly wrong. This skill is teachable and is pretty easily learnt. 2) Creating a high limit. This is what takes a lifetime to master and is what really separates racing drivers from each other. The idea is to create as high a limit as possible for the car in the corner by using grip from both ends of the car in a smooth and controlled manner. The idea being that Schumacher could take a corner at 90mph, where his rivals could only manage 89mph. A good club racer might be 88mph, and Joe Bloggs 60mph. Back at a safe speed on the road, for example 55mph, it's easy to see that the margin for error is much greater for a skilled track driver. All it takes is a bump, the car going light over a crest, a deer to run out, etc etc, and some of those drivers I've listed are going to be ok, and others not - nothing to do with reason (1) above, and everything to do with (2). As above though, developing ability in (2) takes a lot of coaching, feel for the car, trial and error, and self-analysis to learn, and is not worth it for advanced road driving when the same amount of time spent on other skills has a much greater effect on overall safety.
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 3rd April 10:43
Advanced road driving systems are designed to keep you from getting into trouble. Driving on the road is predominantly about getting from A to B safely ahead of quickly.
If you have to rely on controlling the car at or beyond the limits of adhesion you're already outside of the system. This might be down to your own actions or in response to somebody else's.
Learning advanced car control (by definition anything beyond that necessary to pass the DSA test) can bring benefits but also risk. The risk is attitude. Once drivers believe their car control abilities introduce a safety net, their attitude to operating at the edges of the system changes.
Which is why I'd always prioritise learning use of advanced systems ahead of advanced car control.
This is speaking as someone who's done plenty of track time, ARDS, skidpans, advanced road courses and so on. There are many, many people more skilled at all aspects than me, however I've learned (the very hard way), that road driving should not be about driving at or even very near the limit.
If you have to rely on controlling the car at or beyond the limits of adhesion you're already outside of the system. This might be down to your own actions or in response to somebody else's.
Learning advanced car control (by definition anything beyond that necessary to pass the DSA test) can bring benefits but also risk. The risk is attitude. Once drivers believe their car control abilities introduce a safety net, their attitude to operating at the edges of the system changes.
Which is why I'd always prioritise learning use of advanced systems ahead of advanced car control.
This is speaking as someone who's done plenty of track time, ARDS, skidpans, advanced road courses and so on. There are many, many people more skilled at all aspects than me, however I've learned (the very hard way), that road driving should not be about driving at or even very near the limit.
janesmith1950 said:
Advanced road driving systems are designed to keep you from getting into trouble. Driving on the road is predominantly about getting from A to B safely ahead of quickly.
If you have to rely on controlling the car at or beyond the limits of adhesion you're already outside of the system. This might be down to your own actions or in response to somebody else's.
Learning advanced car control (by definition anything beyond that necessary to pass the DSA test) can bring benefits but also risk. The risk is attitude. Once drivers believe their car control abilities introduce a safety net, their attitude to operating at the edges of the system changes.
Which is why I'd always prioritise learning use of advanced systems ahead of advanced car control.
This is speaking as someone who's done plenty of track time, ARDS, skidpans, advanced road courses and so on. There are many, many people more skilled at all aspects than me, however I've learned (the very hard way), that road driving should not be about driving at or even very near the limit.
If you have to rely on controlling the car at or beyond the limits of adhesion you're already outside of the system. This might be down to your own actions or in response to somebody else's.
Learning advanced car control (by definition anything beyond that necessary to pass the DSA test) can bring benefits but also risk. The risk is attitude. Once drivers believe their car control abilities introduce a safety net, their attitude to operating at the edges of the system changes.
Which is why I'd always prioritise learning use of advanced systems ahead of advanced car control.
This is speaking as someone who's done plenty of track time, ARDS, skidpans, advanced road courses and so on. There are many, many people more skilled at all aspects than me, however I've learned (the very hard way), that road driving should not be about driving at or even very near the limit.
I covered all of this in my post above (just reworded slightly to clarify, in case it wasn't clear).To summarise what I said: car control is not just about the relatively easy skill of simply controlling a car at high slip angles, as you do on a skid pan (note though that skid pans only teach low speed car control, at high speed it all changes); it's also (mainly!) about generating a high limit for the car, which on the road at a given safe speed gives an appropriately skilled driver a much greater margin for error, plus of course it's easier on the car. However, learning this latter skill takes a very long time and a lot of hard work, and spending that same time on developing other advanced road skills, such as observation, has a much greater impact on safety.
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 3rd April 10:58
Watched the first one, it made some good points but part two I got about 5 mins in before I had to turn off, was getting strong hints of Walt, hi viz, walkie talkie despite no actual official capacity other than having a website that sells driving tuition.
The guy was going too fast, misjudged the bend and f
ked up, and unluckily there was a bike on the other side of the road, the rider of which got to take a short flight.
Its an NSL road, the National Speed Limit limit is sixty for road that arent motorways, its a limit if conditions allow, not a target velocity.
There are loads of roads I know that are NSL but have bends you cant take at sixty or anywhere near as, guess what you understeer into the other side of the road. The Suabaru was doing over ten percent more than the maximum.
I suspect plenty of vehicles use that road and manage not to have head on crashes, and that will be mainly as the drivers will err on the side of caution if they dont know the road and slow down, or will know the road and adjust their speed to something more appropriate, like 40 or so.
Can drag out as many manuals as you want and try to drive round it at sixty but the answer is to just slow down and accept that not every inch of the road network allows you to drive at the speed limit (or ten percent over)
The guy was going too fast, misjudged the bend and f
ked up, and unluckily there was a bike on the other side of the road, the rider of which got to take a short flight.Its an NSL road, the National Speed Limit limit is sixty for road that arent motorways, its a limit if conditions allow, not a target velocity.
There are loads of roads I know that are NSL but have bends you cant take at sixty or anywhere near as, guess what you understeer into the other side of the road. The Suabaru was doing over ten percent more than the maximum.
I suspect plenty of vehicles use that road and manage not to have head on crashes, and that will be mainly as the drivers will err on the side of caution if they dont know the road and slow down, or will know the road and adjust their speed to something more appropriate, like 40 or so.
Can drag out as many manuals as you want and try to drive round it at sixty but the answer is to just slow down and accept that not every inch of the road network allows you to drive at the speed limit (or ten percent over)
J4CKO said:
Watched the first one, it made some good points but part two I got about 5 mins in before I had to turn off, was getting strong hints of Walt, hi viz, walkie talkie despite no actual official capacity other than having a website that sells driving tuition.
The guy was going too fast, misjudged the bend and fked up, and unluckily there was a bike on the other side of the road, the rider of which got to take a short flight.
Its an NSL road, the National Speed Limit limit is sixty for road that aren't motorways or dual carriageways, its a limit if conditions allow, not a target velocity.
There are loads of roads I know that are NSL but have bends you cant take at sixty or anywhere near as, guess what you understeer into the other side of the road. The Suabaru was doing over ten percent more than the maximum.
I suspect plenty of vehicles use that road and manage not to have head on crashes, and that will be mainly as the drivers will err on the side of caution if they dont know the road and slow down, or will know the road and adjust their speed to something more appropriate, like 40 or so.
Can drag out as many manuals as you want and try to drive round it at sixty but the answer is to just slow down and accept that not every inch of the road network allows you to drive at the speed limit (or ten percent over)
Edited out of pedantry.The guy was going too fast, misjudged the bend and f
ked up, and unluckily there was a bike on the other side of the road, the rider of which got to take a short flight.Its an NSL road, the National Speed Limit limit is sixty for road that aren't motorways or dual carriageways, its a limit if conditions allow, not a target velocity.
There are loads of roads I know that are NSL but have bends you cant take at sixty or anywhere near as, guess what you understeer into the other side of the road. The Suabaru was doing over ten percent more than the maximum.
I suspect plenty of vehicles use that road and manage not to have head on crashes, and that will be mainly as the drivers will err on the side of caution if they dont know the road and slow down, or will know the road and adjust their speed to something more appropriate, like 40 or so.
Can drag out as many manuals as you want and try to drive round it at sixty but the answer is to just slow down and accept that not every inch of the road network allows you to drive at the speed limit (or ten percent over)
We all know he was going too fast, some of us are also interested in why he thought he could maintain 60ish into that bend so we might be able to avoid making the same error. This isn't the same as making excuses.
Edited by Dr Jekyll on Friday 3rd April 12:14
J4CKO said:
Watched the first one, it made some good points but part two I got about 5 mins in before I had to turn off, was getting strong hints of Walt, hi viz, walkie talkie despite no actual official capacity other than having a website that sells driving tuition.
The guy was going too fast, misjudged the bend and fked up, and unluckily there was a bike on the other side of the road, the rider of which got to take a short flight.
Its an NSL road, the National Speed Limit limit is sixty for road that arent motorways, its a limit if conditions allow, not a target velocity.
There are loads of roads I know that are NSL but have bends you cant take at sixty or anywhere near as, guess what you understeer into the other side of the road. The Suabaru was doing over ten percent more than the maximum.
I suspect plenty of vehicles use that road and manage not to have head on crashes, and that will be mainly as the drivers will err on the side of caution if they dont know the road and slow down, or will know the road and adjust their speed to something more appropriate, like 40 or so.
Can drag out as many manuals as you want and try to drive round it at sixty but the answer is to just slow down and accept that not every inch of the road network allows you to drive at the speed limit (or ten percent over)
What I don't think you're understanding is that a variety of factors lead to the incident on the subaru, one being excess speed but it was not the sole reason as explained in the video.The guy was going too fast, misjudged the bend and f
ked up, and unluckily there was a bike on the other side of the road, the rider of which got to take a short flight.Its an NSL road, the National Speed Limit limit is sixty for road that arent motorways, its a limit if conditions allow, not a target velocity.
There are loads of roads I know that are NSL but have bends you cant take at sixty or anywhere near as, guess what you understeer into the other side of the road. The Suabaru was doing over ten percent more than the maximum.
I suspect plenty of vehicles use that road and manage not to have head on crashes, and that will be mainly as the drivers will err on the side of caution if they dont know the road and slow down, or will know the road and adjust their speed to something more appropriate, like 40 or so.
Can drag out as many manuals as you want and try to drive round it at sixty but the answer is to just slow down and accept that not every inch of the road network allows you to drive at the speed limit (or ten percent over)
The lack of suitable signage, very poor road conditions, no sight lines, the fact that the rest of the road is open and flowing.
Also the chap in the video has a walkie talkie for communicating with people at the roadside I think, not that it matters - who cares.
The other thing that was being highlighted was the contradictory "advanced" driving books etc.
xjay1337 said:
J4CKO said:
Watched the first one, it made some good points but part two I got about 5 mins in before I had to turn off, was getting strong hints of Walt, hi viz, walkie talkie despite no actual official capacity other than having a website that sells driving tuition.
The guy was going too fast, misjudged the bend and fked up, and unluckily there was a bike on the other side of the road, the rider of which got to take a short flight.
Its an NSL road, the National Speed Limit limit is sixty for road that arent motorways, its a limit if conditions allow, not a target velocity.
There are loads of roads I know that are NSL but have bends you cant take at sixty or anywhere near as, guess what you understeer into the other side of the road. The Suabaru was doing over ten percent more than the maximum.
I suspect plenty of vehicles use that road and manage not to have head on crashes, and that will be mainly as the drivers will err on the side of caution if they dont know the road and slow down, or will know the road and adjust their speed to something more appropriate, like 40 or so.
Can drag out as many manuals as you want and try to drive round it at sixty but the answer is to just slow down and accept that not every inch of the road network allows you to drive at the speed limit (or ten percent over)
What I don't think you're understanding is that a variety of factors lead to the incident on the subaru, one being excess speed but it was not the sole reason as explained in the video.The guy was going too fast, misjudged the bend and f
ked up, and unluckily there was a bike on the other side of the road, the rider of which got to take a short flight.Its an NSL road, the National Speed Limit limit is sixty for road that arent motorways, its a limit if conditions allow, not a target velocity.
There are loads of roads I know that are NSL but have bends you cant take at sixty or anywhere near as, guess what you understeer into the other side of the road. The Suabaru was doing over ten percent more than the maximum.
I suspect plenty of vehicles use that road and manage not to have head on crashes, and that will be mainly as the drivers will err on the side of caution if they dont know the road and slow down, or will know the road and adjust their speed to something more appropriate, like 40 or so.
Can drag out as many manuals as you want and try to drive round it at sixty but the answer is to just slow down and accept that not every inch of the road network allows you to drive at the speed limit (or ten percent over)
The lack of suitable signage, very poor road conditions, no sight lines, the fact that the rest of the road is open and flowing.
Also the chap in the video has a walkie talkie for communicating with people at the roadside I think, not that it matters - who cares.
The other thing that was being highlighted was the contradictory "advanced" driving books etc.
If you like it's a bit like saying this
is an 'advanced' use of paint.
When more accurately this
is an 'advanced' use of paint.
xjay1337 said:
What I don't think you're understanding is that a variety of factors lead to the incident on the subaru, one being excess speed but it was not the sole reason as explained in the video.
The lack of suitable signage, very poor road conditions, no sight lines, the fact that the rest of the road is open and flowing.
There are always a hundred and one factors for the driver to take into account. It's the job of the driver to take these into account and react accordingly. If the driver doesn't then it's driver error. There was nothing in that video that struck me as being "out of the ordinary" or something completely unexpected for a country road. If a meteorite had caused him to swerve into the opposite lane you might argue "fair play, that was unexpected" but things like poor roads or incomplete signage are not unusual and shouldn't adversely affect a competent driver.The lack of suitable signage, very poor road conditions, no sight lines, the fact that the rest of the road is open and flowing.
As has already been mentioned several times - the driver before him didn't crash, the driver after him didn't crash. the road conditions and the signage stayed the same. The only difference was the driver.
Countdown said:
xjay1337 said:
What I don't think you're understanding is that a variety of factors lead to the incident on the subaru, one being excess speed but it was not the sole reason as explained in the video.
The lack of suitable signage, very poor road conditions, no sight lines, the fact that the rest of the road is open and flowing.
There are always a hundred and one factors for the driver to take into account. It's the job of the driver to take these into account and react accordingly. If the driver doesn't then it's driver error. There was nothing in that video that struck me as being "out of the ordinary" or something completely unexpected for a country road. If a meteorite had caused him to swerve into the opposite lane you might argue "fair play, that was unexpected" but things like poor roads or incomplete signage are not unusual and shouldn't adversely affect a competent driver.The lack of suitable signage, very poor road conditions, no sight lines, the fact that the rest of the road is open and flowing.
As has already been mentioned several times - the driver before him didn't crash, the driver after him didn't crash. the road conditions and the signage stayed the same. The only difference was the driver.
As has been said before it's a more holistic approach to accident investigation.
Much more in keeping with aircraft accidents.
It might have been the pilots faults but very rarely is it SOLELY attributable to any individual, there are a collection of errors leading up to the crash.
xjay1337 said:
Countdown said:
xjay1337 said:
What I don't think you're understanding is that a variety of factors lead to the incident on the subaru, one being excess speed but it was not the sole reason as explained in the video.
The lack of suitable signage, very poor road conditions, no sight lines, the fact that the rest of the road is open and flowing.
There are always a hundred and one factors for the driver to take into account. It's the job of the driver to take these into account and react accordingly. If the driver doesn't then it's driver error. There was nothing in that video that struck me as being "out of the ordinary" or something completely unexpected for a country road. If a meteorite had caused him to swerve into the opposite lane you might argue "fair play, that was unexpected" but things like poor roads or incomplete signage are not unusual and shouldn't adversely affect a competent driver.The lack of suitable signage, very poor road conditions, no sight lines, the fact that the rest of the road is open and flowing.
As has already been mentioned several times - the driver before him didn't crash, the driver after him didn't crash. the road conditions and the signage stayed the same. The only difference was the driver.
As has been said before it's a more holistic approach to accident investigation.
Much more in keeping with aircraft accidents.
It might have been the pilots faults but very rarely is it SOLELY attributable to any individual, there are a collection of errors leading up to the crash.
If you run the original Police video & stop it at 14 seconds.
You can see the markings ahead are changing from centre line to hazard markings. You can see the change of surface.
You can see with lateral vision the back of the wall giving you an idea that you have a reasonably tight curve coming up & you can also see that it's likely to drop away from you too.
Stop it at 16 seconds.
The maxim is 'be able to stop on your own side of the road within the distance you can see to be clear (& reasonably expect to remain so). The teachings are also that you shouldn't be driving at 10/10ths on road, but at 8/10ths, so effectively stop within 80% of that space available to allow some safety margins. The driver is just not reacting sufficiently to the hazard in light of all of the above.
Stop it at 18 seconds.
Stop at the speed he is doing within 80% of that visible road surface on his side of the road?
Also no mention from the author of the four 'S' from the teachings.
Safe, System, Smooth, Speed
It's hierarchal.
Safety trumps System.
So if he has messed up the assessment & not left enough room to apply the System, then he has to do what Safety demands. So the teachings wouldn't insist (as claimed) that he enters that bend on the throttle, it would be enter on the brakes.
Dont like rolls said:
Countdown said:
As has already been mentioned several times - the driver before him didn't crash, the driver after him didn't crash. the road conditions and the signage stayed the same. The only difference was the driver.
Wrong, the car was differentDont like rolls said:
Countdown said:
As has already been mentioned several times - the driver before him didn't crash, the driver after him didn't crash. the road conditions and the signage stayed the same. The only difference was the driver.
Wrong, the car was differentGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff