RE: All good things come to an end in 2035

RE: All good things come to an end in 2035

Author
Discussion

Pvapour

8,722 posts

207 months

Friday 28th February
quotequote all
smartypants said:
And self tying shoes!

(doubt I'll be able to touch my toes by then, so could be useful) smile
Worst ‘i can tie my shoe laces’ post ever!

M4cruiser

2,032 posts

104 months

Friday 28th February
quotequote all
Harry H said:
Here's my electric car solution

All cars have standardised battery pack like a big cassette. You drive into a refuelling station and the machine swaps over batteries for you and off you go.

No longer a need for self charging
Car ownership for all without the need for off street parking
No concerns over charging times or range
Uses existing petrol stations subject to a big f --- cable to charge all the batteries.
Implementation time of a couple of years
No resale issue due to knackered batteries
Easily taxable just like fossil fuels

Why does the car user need to own the battery?
We don't all have our own oil refineries at home now.




Edited by Harry H on Friday 28th February 13:48
This has been tried and failed (in the UK anyway).
The Renault Fluence was designed with this system in mind, which is why no one wants them now - no Rapid charge, and the battery is in the boot but accessible from underneath.
I think the company building the network of charging stations went bust. There's your answer!


SpeckledJim

21,558 posts

207 months

Friday 28th February
quotequote all
M4cruiser said:
Harry H said:
Here's my electric car solution

All cars have standardised battery pack like a big cassette. You drive into a refuelling station and the machine swaps over batteries for you and off you go.

No longer a need for self charging
Car ownership for all without the need for off street parking
No concerns over charging times or range
Uses existing petrol stations subject to a big f --- cable to charge all the batteries.
Implementation time of a couple of years
No resale issue due to knackered batteries
Easily taxable just like fossil fuels

Why does the car user need to own the battery?
We don't all have our own oil refineries at home now.




Edited by Harry H on Friday 28th February 13:48
This has been tried and failed (in the UK anyway).
The Renault Fluence was designed with this system in mind, which is why no one wants them now - no Rapid charge, and the battery is in the boot but accessible from underneath.
I think the company building the network of charging stations went bust. There's your answer!
Fluence was a disaster, but the early days are usually a disaster.

Swappable batteries might still be a workable idea. But not yet. We need to do big batteries in every car first. Then swappable batteries will become sensible.

It’s not the next step. But it might be the step after that.

jamoor

11,710 posts

169 months

Friday 28th February
quotequote all
Harry H said:
Here's my electric car solution

All cars have standardised battery pack like a big cassette. You drive into a refuelling station and the machine swaps over batteries for you and off you go.

No longer a need for self charging
Car ownership for all without the need for off street parking
No concerns over charging times or range
Uses existing petrol stations subject to a big fk off cable to charge all the batteries.
Implementation time of a couple of years
No resale issue due to knackered batteries
Easily taxable just like fossil fuels

Why does the car user need to own the battery?
We don't all have our own oil refineries at home now.




Edited by Harry H on Friday 28th February 13:48
Batteries have a finite lifespan, would you swap the ones in your car with ones with 1,000 cycles?

otolith

40,858 posts

158 months

Saturday 29th February
quotequote all
Tesla did batteries swappable in minutes, it never took off.

As for the stuff about repair/reconditioning of batteries being problematic - there are already companies doing it for hybrids.

Kolbenkopp

2,228 posts

105 months

Saturday 29th February
quotequote all
fblm said:
If your otherwise perfectly serviceable EV is 'bricked' because the manufacturer won't supply a spare part then that's going to hit their new car sales hard; no different to a manufacturer pulling the same trick now. In any event model 3 battery life (80%+) is projected to be 300 to 500,000 miles... the door's will be hanging off it by then!
Looking at some of the really leggy model S cars out there that might actually work. I certainly don't have battery angst. Also agree manufacturers of EVs have no interest to overdo it with "encouraged obsolescence".

Problem though: I guess there will be loads of perfectly serviceable EVs around in 10+ years time that just need a battery or controller repair. There is not much else to go wrong that isn't easily fixed. The user can even totally neglect maintenance for years without causing catastrophic damage.

That's not good if your business is to sell new cars. That is why I doubt manufacturers will make it easy to fix the few things that can really brick an old EV.


VeeFource

1,000 posts

131 months

Saturday 29th February
quotequote all
Equus said:
VeeFource said:
There's a reason people pay £50 odd for their family to ride on a steam train. Despite outclassing a steam train I can't ever see that happening with one of these...

Last time I paid to ride on one of those, it cost me a fair bit more than £50 for the privilege, and that was just for me on my own.
I'm guessing you were using it to get somewhere rather than riding up and down the line for the fun of it?

kiseca

7,972 posts

173 months

Monday 2nd March
quotequote all
VeeFource said:
Equus said:
VeeFource said:
There's a reason people pay £50 odd for their family to ride on a steam train. Despite outclassing a steam train I can't ever see that happening with one of these...

Last time I paid to ride on one of those, it cost me a fair bit more than £50 for the privilege, and that was just for me on my own.
I'm guessing you were using it to get somewhere rather than riding up and down the line for the fun of it?
There are only a handful of steam trains left in operation today. Most people have never travelled on one, and it has an attraction of being a new, novelty or just unfamiliar experience.

Back when steam trains were normal, people just rode them to get where they're going, much like they do today, and the (then) new electric trains were the novelty everyone wanted to try. Just like prop driven airliners like the Constellation have a romantic aura around them nowadays - I'd love to experience a flight in one - they were noisy, vibrating beasts. Jet airliners were simply faster, much smoother, quieter, and a more pleasant experience. The only thing that changed that is cheap flights and high density passenger packaging.

If Virgin offered a regular steam train service alongside every electric service they currently run, same price, same accommodation, I'd say that the steam train would be far more popular with outside observers than with passengers, and tickets for the faster, quieter and less smelly electric option would outsell the steam engine by miles.

EVs are similar. An electric motor is much more suited to motivating a car than a petrol or diesel engine is. It's more reliable. It's more efficient. It's faster. It doesn't need gears. It hardly needs brakes. It's smaller and easier to package. It's the energy source - the batteries - that are less suited to a car than a tank of fuel - and part of that is familiarity and infrastructure, where fossil fuel is far more developed than battery charging.

Even EVO said it on their review of the Tesla 3. It's still fun, just fun in different ways. This whole idea that as soon as you put an electric motor and battery in a car it has to be as dull as a milkfloat is just closed-minded nonsense.

Harry H

1,743 posts

110 months

Monday 2nd March
quotequote all
jamoor said:
Harry H said:
Here's my electric car solution

All cars have standardised battery pack like a big cassette. You drive into a refuelling station and the machine swaps over batteries for you and off you go.

No longer a need for self charging
Car ownership for all without the need for off street parking
No concerns over charging times or range
Uses existing petrol stations subject to a big fk off cable to charge all the batteries.
Implementation time of a couple of years
No resale issue due to knackered batteries
Easily taxable just like fossil fuels

Why does the car user need to own the battery?
We don't all have our own oil refineries at home now.




Edited by Harry H on Friday 28th February 13:48
Batteries have a finite lifespan, would you swap the ones in your car with ones with 1,000 cycles?
Why would I care what the condition of the battery is as I'd be swapping it for another one 150 miles later. It wouldn't be "my battery" just "a battery"

M4cruiser

2,032 posts

104 months

Monday 2nd March
quotequote all
Harry H said:
Why would I care what the condition of the battery is as I'd be swapping it for another one 150 miles later. It wouldn't be "my battery" just "a battery"
Yes, that's the whole point of the "swappage" scheme - the battery has to be leased.
... and that's the problem, in the UK anyway, most buyers want one deal for the whole car, particularly when it comes to second hand ones, and they want to own the battery, either from the start of their used-car-ownership, or at the end of their HP deal.


VeeFource

1,000 posts

131 months

Tuesday 3rd March
quotequote all
kiseca said:
VeeFource said:
Equus said:
VeeFource said:
There's a reason people pay £50 odd for their family to ride on a steam train. Despite outclassing a steam train I can't ever see that happening with one of these...

Last time I paid to ride on one of those, it cost me a fair bit more than £50 for the privilege, and that was just for me on my own.
I'm guessing you were using it to get somewhere rather than riding up and down the line for the fun of it?
There are only a handful of steam trains left in operation today. Most people have never travelled on one, and it has an attraction of being a new, novelty or just unfamiliar experience.

Back when steam trains were normal, people just rode them to get where they're going, much like they do today, and the (then) new electric trains were the novelty everyone wanted to try. Just like prop driven airliners like the Constellation have a romantic aura around them nowadays - I'd love to experience a flight in one - they were noisy, vibrating beasts. Jet airliners were simply faster, much smoother, quieter, and a more pleasant experience. The only thing that changed that is cheap flights and high density passenger packaging.

If Virgin offered a regular steam train service alongside every electric service they currently run, same price, same accommodation, I'd say that the steam train would be far more popular with outside observers than with passengers, and tickets for the faster, quieter and less smelly electric option would outsell the steam engine by miles.

EVs are similar. An electric motor is much more suited to motivating a car than a petrol or diesel engine is. It's more reliable. It's more efficient. It's faster. It doesn't need gears. It hardly needs brakes. It's smaller and easier to package. It's the energy source - the batteries - that are less suited to a car than a tank of fuel - and part of that is familiarity and infrastructure, where fossil fuel is far more developed than battery charging.

Even EVO said it on their review of the Tesla 3. It's still fun, just fun in different ways. This whole idea that as soon as you put an electric motor and battery in a car it has to be as dull as a milkfloat is just closed-minded nonsense.
Your argument has pulled this out of context. Yes the typical driver is of course going to find an electric car more appealing in many ways, just as a typical passenger would prefer a modern train. But we're not typical drivers, we're enthusiasts that will spend a great deal more money on a car just because it makes a great noise.

Of course some of us will love the torque an EV has to offer and not be too bothered about the switch to EVs. But others of us (myself included) love the sound of an ICE and all the gear changing etc that goes with it. Whilst still offering some enjoyment, an EV is not going to be anything like as fun for people like me which was the point of the post.

kiseca

7,972 posts

173 months

Tuesday 3rd March
quotequote all
VeeFource said:
kiseca said:
VeeFource said:
Equus said:
VeeFource said:
There's a reason people pay £50 odd for their family to ride on a steam train. Despite outclassing a steam train I can't ever see that happening with one of these...

Last time I paid to ride on one of those, it cost me a fair bit more than £50 for the privilege, and that was just for me on my own.
I'm guessing you were using it to get somewhere rather than riding up and down the line for the fun of it?
There are only a handful of steam trains left in operation today. Most people have never travelled on one, and it has an attraction of being a new, novelty or just unfamiliar experience.

Back when steam trains were normal, people just rode them to get where they're going, much like they do today, and the (then) new electric trains were the novelty everyone wanted to try. Just like prop driven airliners like the Constellation have a romantic aura around them nowadays - I'd love to experience a flight in one - they were noisy, vibrating beasts. Jet airliners were simply faster, much smoother, quieter, and a more pleasant experience. The only thing that changed that is cheap flights and high density passenger packaging.

If Virgin offered a regular steam train service alongside every electric service they currently run, same price, same accommodation, I'd say that the steam train would be far more popular with outside observers than with passengers, and tickets for the faster, quieter and less smelly electric option would outsell the steam engine by miles.

EVs are similar. An electric motor is much more suited to motivating a car than a petrol or diesel engine is. It's more reliable. It's more efficient. It's faster. It doesn't need gears. It hardly needs brakes. It's smaller and easier to package. It's the energy source - the batteries - that are less suited to a car than a tank of fuel - and part of that is familiarity and infrastructure, where fossil fuel is far more developed than battery charging.

Even EVO said it on their review of the Tesla 3. It's still fun, just fun in different ways. This whole idea that as soon as you put an electric motor and battery in a car it has to be as dull as a milkfloat is just closed-minded nonsense.
Your argument has pulled this out of context. Yes the typical driver is of course going to find an electric car more appealing in many ways, just as a typical passenger would prefer a modern train. But we're not typical drivers, we're enthusiasts that will spend a great deal more money on a car just because it makes a great noise.

Of course some of us will love the torque an EV has to offer and not be too bothered about the switch to EVs. But others of us (myself included) love the sound of an ICE and all the gear changing etc that goes with it. Whilst still offering some enjoyment, an EV is not going to be anything like as fun for people like me which was the point of the post.
Yes you're right, from the EVO bit onwards I wasn't responding about the train comparison, I was just in general responding to the whole thread. I would say though that EVO are enthusiasts similar to the average person on PH, but individually I believe there is a wide spread among enthusiasts even on PH, when it comes to things about cars that we enjoy. For most, the noise is important, but for many it's not a deal breaker, and the vast majority of new cars available at any era don't sound that great anyway. For others, it's handling, roadholding, performance, feedback, and, as you say, working a gearbox. They all mix in different levels for different people, and apart from noise, EVs have potential advantages in all of those categories apart from (natural) noise and gearbox.

Even with the noise it has an advantage over the modern piped engine sound trend... you can make an EV sound like a Tie fighter if you wanted to. No need to hide nor enhance a throttled ICE note.

Evo like the 3 and found it an appealing car to the driver. Chris Harris felt the same years ago when he tested a Tesla Roadster, though his opinion on EVs cooled an awful lot by the time he got himself into an S.

There's potential there, not simply for the average buyer but for those of us who love to drive, too. At least, if any manufacturer decides to service that side of the market. Then it's just up to us to not dismiss it offhand as a milkfloat.

marky911

3,833 posts

173 months

Tuesday 3rd March
quotequote all
kiseca said:
Even EVO said it on their review of the Tesla 3. It's still fun, just fun in different ways. This whole idea that as soon as you put an electric motor and battery in a car it has to be as dull as a milkfloat is just closed-minded nonsense.
There’s always a barbed comment on the end of the pro-EV comments.
Anyone who doesn’t agree automatically subscribes to “close-minded nonsense”.
Funny. hehe

For the record though, although no longer EVO staffers, Harris and Jethro both agreed in their recent podcast that unfortunately EVs are very much one trick ponies as far as exciting drivers cars go.
You get one and do the 0-60 in 2.5 seconds thing, then you’re left thinking, “What now?”

So I’m onboard regarding EVs being smooth, quiet forms of transport, but any argument for them not being dull is equally “nonsense” in my view.
Who wouldn’t be impressed by 0-60 in 2.5 seconds but how many EVs actually do that?
Apart from that though, then I can’t see any positives as far as driving for pleasure goes.

Transport, yes. Driving as an enthusiast, nope.




Alextodrive

242 posts

29 months

Tuesday 3rd March
quotequote all
warch said:
uncleluck said:
We need less people on the planet.
Are you volunteering to be one of them?
This made me laugh. And not at the OP for the record.

We all need to do so much more but these holier than thou parents with 3/4 kids in tow... wish that comment could be directed to them haha. Such a hypocritical situation when I hear people having more kids outnumbering themselves preaching.

Theyre a huge cause of the problems we face. More people is more resources, is more damage. Even if you’re vegan and walk everywhere, the damage we each do is vast.

Knock the population back to levels 100 years ago and you have a potentially manageable climate emergency. At current trends we have no almost no hope.

Fittster

19,128 posts

167 months

Tuesday 3rd March
quotequote all
Alextodrive said:
warch said:
uncleluck said:
We need less people on the planet.
Are you volunteering to be one of them?
This made me laugh. And not at the OP for the record.

We all need to do so much more but these holier than thou parents with 3/4 kids in tow... wish that comment could be directed to them haha. Such a hypocritical situation when I hear people having more kids outnumbering themselves preaching.

Theyre a huge cause of the problems we face. More people is more resources, is more damage. Even if you’re vegan and walk everywhere, the damage we each do is vast.

Knock the population back to levels 100 years ago and you have a potentially manageable climate emergency. At current trends we have no almost no hope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate

The problem with population isn't so much the birth rate as the attitude and actions of the old.

jjwilde

1,116 posts

50 months

Tuesday 3rd March
quotequote all
National Grid, tired yet again of the myths being posted by idiots have made ANOTHER post about how the grid will not collapse and that they can handle EVs.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/5-myths-about-electri...

kiseca

7,972 posts

173 months

Tuesday 3rd March
quotequote all
marky911 said:
kiseca said:
Even EVO said it on their review of the Tesla 3. It's still fun, just fun in different ways. This whole idea that as soon as you put an electric motor and battery in a car it has to be as dull as a milkfloat is just closed-minded nonsense.
There’s always a barbed comment on the end of the pro-EV comments.
Anyone who doesn’t agree automatically subscribes to “close-minded nonsense”.
Funny. hehe

For the record though, although no longer EVO staffers, Harris and Jethro both agreed in their recent podcast that unfortunately EVs are very much one trick ponies as far as exciting drivers cars go.
You get one and do the 0-60 in 2.5 seconds thing, then you’re left thinking, “What now?”

So I’m onboard regarding EVs being smooth, quiet forms of transport, but any argument for them not being dull is equally “nonsense” in my view.
Who wouldn’t be impressed by 0-60 in 2.5 seconds but how many EVs actually do that?
Apart from that though, then I can’t see any positives as far as driving for pleasure goes.

Transport, yes. Driving as an enthusiast, nope.
It's hardly a reasoned, unbarbed comment to dismiss every electrically powered car, whether driven or not or even been designed yet or not, as a "milkfloat". If you simply cannot enjoy a car without any cylinders, I'm fine with that. But I didn't start with the barbs and insults.

Scootersp

1,345 posts

142 months

Tuesday 3rd March
quotequote all
M4cruiser said:
Harry H said:
Why would I care what the condition of the battery is as I'd be swapping it for another one 150 miles later. It wouldn't be "my battery" just "a battery"
Yes, that's the whole point of the "swappage" scheme - the battery has to be leased.
... and that's the problem, in the UK anyway, most buyers want one deal for the whole car, particularly when it comes to second hand ones, and they want to own the battery, either from the start of their used-car-ownership, or at the end of their HP deal.
If you can legislate out ICE powered cars then you could legislate for swappable batteries, or perhaps at least a universal add on type system, so you could get a top up battery (30miles or so) at a 'petrol' station and hop between these to get you home in an emergency?

jamoor

11,710 posts

169 months

Tuesday 3rd March
quotequote all
jjwilde said:
National Grid, tired yet again of the myths being posted by idiots have made ANOTHER post about how the grid will not collapse and that they can handle EVs.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/5-myths-about-electri...
I have to know who perpetuated these myths, they don't come out of nowhere.

The national grid literally have nothing to gain/lose by publishing that on their website.