RE: Europe denied new 387hp Supra by emissions rules

RE: Europe denied new 387hp Supra by emissions rules

Author
Discussion

J2daG1990

1,035 posts

84 months

Friday 14th February
quotequote all
Litchfield can take one up to 420BHP anyway with an ECU remap so does it really matter?

bungz

1,255 posts

78 months

Friday 14th February
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Gopping from every angle.

carinaman

15,772 posts

130 months

Friday 14th February
quotequote all
Harry makes a good point at 12 minutes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIn7gCN6uC4

Leon R

937 posts

54 months

Friday 14th February
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carinaman said:
Harry makes a good point at 12 minutes in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIn7gCN6uC4
I have always thought that, if my car produces double the emissions per kilometer but only gets driven an eighth of the distance then why is tax four times as much.

theholygrail

252 posts

126 months

Friday 14th February
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bungz said:
Gopping from every angle.
The FT-1 concept ruined this car for me. Wish I'd never seen it!

borat52

226 posts

166 months

Friday 14th February
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Leon R said:
I have always thought that, if my car produces double the emissions per kilometer but only gets driven an eighth of the distance then why is tax four times as much.
Especially given that fuel is taxed already so we already have an excellent mechanism to tax emissions.

jimPH

1,639 posts

38 months

Friday 14th February
quotequote all
J2daG1990 said:
Litchfield can take one up to 420BHP anyway with an ECU remap so does it really matter?
Because with the better pistons and bigger turbo, Litchfield could get 480hp.

Anyway, how is Mercedes getting 415 from a 4 pot 2.0 on euro 6, yet Toyota/BMW only get 375 from this 6 pot 3.0.

powerstroke

9,294 posts

118 months

Friday 14th February
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seefarr said:
David87 said:
Without wishing to be all Brexit-y, this is exactly the sort of thing we should now be able to avoid. Start with the important things and all that. hehe
Why should the UK avoid environmental standards once it leaves the EU?

Good question!! Why should we shoot ourselves in the foot while China and India trashes the environment gets rich and sees us
as an investment opportunity . Oh and why aren't you driving a Leaf or tesla ??

VeeFource

1,010 posts

135 months

Friday 14th February
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Leon R said:
I have always thought that, if my car produces double the emissions per kilometer but only gets driven an eighth of the distance then why is tax four times as much.
Exactly. I cycle 12 miles each way to and from work and not having kids largely because there's already too many people. But I'm not allowed this car if I want it despite having to pay tax on the extra fuel consumption? Thank you red tape Britain!

Oh but at least I can join in with all the lazy Britons chugging about all day in their diesel Peugeots for everything including going to the shop 50 yards up the road to buy a 2 stroke leaf blower. And then burn all the leaves. Followed by having 4 kids. Brilliant.

Edited by VeeFource on Friday 14th February 18:43

NGK210

1,188 posts

103 months

Friday 14th February
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So, the Supra's getting a whopping 37hp power hike - and Toyota can't afford the time/¥ for a Euro6-compliant engine map? Really?
Before we roll-up our copies of the Telegraph to use as truncheons, don MAGA hats, raise Laurence Fox shoulder-high and storm the Berlaymont, let's pause and think:
Could it be that Supra sales in Europe are so p*ss poor that it's not worth making the effort re. emissions tweakage, whereas sales in the US and Japan, et al, justify the investment in a new turbo and pistons?

samoht

1,667 posts

104 months

Friday 14th February
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First, I think that 387 - 340 = 47hp, rather than 37hp. (Of course the real gap will only be revealed by dyno testing of the new version)

There's quite a bit more info on the new US lineup here http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/2021-toyota-gr-sup...
- "Supra sales are not great. Toyota sold just 2,884 of them in 2019"
- "Toyota says that the power comes from a new dual-branch exhaust manifold with six ports instead of two, as well as new pistons that reduce the compression ratio from 11:1 to 10.2:1."
- "The 2021 Supra also comes with a revised chassis. New aluminum braces from the strut towers to the radiator support increase lateral rigidity, and just about every electronic system has been re-tweaked as well — steering, adaptive suspension, stability control, and the active diff."
- "The 2.0-liter version has been sold elsewhere in the world, but now the US is getting the 255-horsepower, 298 lb-ft variant, still mated to an 8-speed automatic."

I wonder if we'll be getting the chassis updates, and/or the four-cylinder model here?


Edited by samoht on Friday 14th February 20:22

Killboy

2,304 posts

160 months

Friday 14th February
quotequote all
powerstroke said:
Good question!! Why should we shoot ourselves in the foot while China and India trashes the environment gets rich and sees us
as an investment opportunity . Oh and why aren't you driving a Leaf or tesla ??
Why don't you live in this utopia of China?

A1VDY

3,094 posts

85 months

Friday 14th February
quotequote all
David87 said:
Without wishing to be all Brexit-y, this is exactly the sort of thing we should now be able to avoid. Start with the important things and all that. hehe
Good point.
Now the UK is out of the EU out should go the EU emissions std ie euro 5/6 ect.
The UK should take the F.E emmisions approach from now on..


foxhounduk

290 posts

138 months

Friday 14th February
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astrsxi77 said:
Ironic. It used to be North American car enthusiasts looking on in envy at the European market, whose more highly-spec'd and tuned models were unavailable for reasons including their greater emissions and reduced fuel economy. The US-only E60 M5 manual was a strange exception to this.

I suspect this envy switch-around will only get worse if the NA market remains resistant to the ICE downsizing and EV bandwagon currently afflicting Europe.
You raise a good point with the manual E60 M5. This was a crime in my eyes how they didn't offer this to the UK market. This is what literally all BMW buffs want; big engine, manual, rear wheel drive. There is and was no other manual v10 apart from the E60 and the R8 V10 I think.

MikeM6

3,209 posts

60 months

Friday 14th February
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WCZ said:
we aren't going to be in the EU though?
And.....? We will still be complying with EU regulations or a parallel of them.

Wills2

17,410 posts

133 months

Friday 14th February
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jimPH said:
J2daG1990 said:
Litchfield can take one up to 420BHP anyway with an ECU remap so does it really matter?
Because with the better pistons and bigger turbo, Litchfield could get 480hp.

Anyway, how is Mercedes getting 415 from a 4 pot 2.0 on euro 6, yet Toyota/BMW only get 375 from this 6 pot 3.0.
BMW used to get 1400hp out of a 1.5l 4 pot in the 80's but that's not the point, Merc used to sell you a 6.2 with 457hp when BMW would get 507hp from 5.0l, so what? It all comes down to the car, its positioning what they want to let it produce and the power delivery characteristics they are after...




Edited by Wills2 on Friday 14th February 23:30

BVB

791 posts

111 months

Saturday 15th February
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Thank goodness for Europe. Look at the state of it!

unsprung

4,928 posts

82 months

Saturday 15th February
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Dafydd Wood said:
in the US the car faces much larger-engined rivals such as the Dodge Charger
A four-door saloon like Dodge Charger might not be high on the list of vehicles cross-shopped with a Toyota Supra.

The Dodge Challenger, a two-door coupe, would be closer. As would Camaro and Mustang. Each is available with more power than Supra and at a lower price. But none is as small as Supra. Challenger is largest of all and its rear seats are not merely decorative, but reasonably comfortable for some adults.

The Nissan 370Z NISMO variant has a 350 hp V6 for similar money. Both cars are the same width, but Supra is longer and heavier.




Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

189 months

Saturday 15th February
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The reason the Supra is selling so slowly in the U.S. is that it is really a BMW Zed 4 in over the top Toyota clothes. Had it been a more equal partnership, maybe but it is about 95% Bimmer. Remember, Supra cults over here are serious and they simply see this as a BMW, they are unimpressed. This is a possible reason Toyota yielded so much build to BMW. The famous Supra of old were straight sixes IIRC. Toyota does not build those now and didn’t want the expense of factory”ing” up to make one for one car, so they let BMW do it. That part is just unsubstantiated theory. That and perhaps the Supra lovers grew up since the last Supra was here and might prefer the more mature Z4.

Meridius

1,423 posts

110 months

Saturday 15th February
quotequote all
jimPH said:
Because with the better pistons and bigger turbo, Litchfield could get 480hp.

Anyway, how is Mercedes getting 415 from a 4 pot 2.0 on euro 6, yet Toyota/BMW only get 375 from this 6 pot 3.0.
Its 503hp in the new M3 / X3 Competitions.

But anyway, in regards to the Supra I dont think 40ish hp difference is really all that much to make a fuss about, its not like the Supras slow or anything.