RE: Europe denied new 387hp Supra by emissions rules

[Shmee]

foxhounduk said:

You raise a good point with the manual E60 M5. This was a crime in my eyes how they didn't offer this to the UK market. This is what literally all BMW buffs want; big engine, manual, rear wheel drive. There is and was no other manual v10 apart from the E60 and the R8 V10 I think.

Don't forget one of the greatest cars ever; the Porsche Carrera GT! There have been a bunch of Gallardo variants too.

[va1o]

joe1145 said:

Strange that BMW can offer 375BHP in the M340i with the B58, but Toyota cant offer this in the Supra with the B58.

Was just about to post the same thing, I don’t understand this either. The UK M340i has the higher output version of the engine but the Z4 M40i and Supra appear to be capped. Doesn’t make sense to me, must be something else at play here....

[FourRingedDonuts]

GTiWILL said:

It’s more like 375hp anyway, there are numerous dyno tests confirming this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=60cxIFwHJNU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2MQdYO8ls0c

I was going to say the same.
I wonder what the new US model will dyno at ?

[gazzarose]

Isn't it just the same 'limit' that is going to hit the Jimny? It's just down to the fine they would have to pay for the increased fleet average, and they just don't sell enough in Europe to cover it. There is obviously no legal limit on emmisions when there are still 500 hp SUVs and super saloons, the limit is purely a financial one. The only way Toyota could get around it would be to put the fine on top of the price of the higher power car, and I'd wager that for 90% of Supra buyers, the extra wouldn't be worth it over the standard car. Especially as an artificially inflated price would then push it into completion with our cats higher up the pecking order, so even more reason not to buy it.

[MikeM6]

gazzarose said:

Isn't it just the same 'limit' that is going to hit the Jimny? It's just down to the fine they would have to pay for the increased fleet average, and they just don't sell enough in Europe to cover it. There is obviously no legal limit on emmisions when there are still 500 hp SUVs and super saloons, the limit is purely a financial one. The only way Toyota could get around it would be to put the fine on top of the price of the higher power car, and I'd wager that for 90% of Supra buyers, the extra wouldn't be worth it over the standard car. Especially as an artificially inflated price would then push it into completion with our cats higher up the pecking order, so even more reason not to buy it.

That's my understanding of it, they could offer it but with emissions based fines it isn't cost effective.

[jimPH]

Wills2 said:

jimPH said:

J2daG1990 said:

Litchfield can take one up to 420BHP anyway with an ECU remap so does it really matter?

Because with the better pistons and bigger turbo, Litchfield could get 480hp.

Anyway, how is Mercedes getting 415 from a 4 pot 2.0 on euro 6, yet Toyota/BMW only get 375 from this 6 pot 3.0.

BMW used to get 1400hp out of a 1.5l 4 pot in the 80's but that's not the point, Merc used to sell you a 6.2 with 457hp when BMW would get 507hp from 5.0l, so what? It all comes down to the car, its positioning what they want to let it produce and the power delivery characteristics they are after...

The equivalent Merc was the E63 with the same engine producing 518hp.

But we are talking in terms of euro6 compliancy. If Merc can make 415 and be compliant from the M139. I'm quite sure Toyota/BMW can with the B58.

We are talking 47hp, not 100.

[Wills2]

jimPH said:

Wills2 said:

jimPH said:

J2daG1990 said:

Litchfield can take one up to 420BHP anyway with an ECU remap so does it really matter?

Because with the better pistons and bigger turbo, Litchfield could get 480hp.

Anyway, how is Mercedes getting 415 from a 4 pot 2.0 on euro 6, yet Toyota/BMW only get 375 from this 6 pot 3.0.

BMW used to get 1400hp out of a 1.5l 4 pot in the 80's but that's not the point, Merc used to sell you a 6.2 with 457hp when BMW would get 507hp from 5.0l, so what? It all comes down to the car, its positioning what they want to let it produce and the power delivery characteristics they are after...

The equivalent Merc was the E63 with the same engine producing 518hp.

But we are talking in terms of euro6 compliancy. If Merc can make 415 and be compliant from the M139. I'm quite sure Toyota/BMW can with the B58.

We are talking 47hp, not 100.

Because that's all they want to get out of it for the cost benefit return of turning up the wick on a larger engine and maintaining compliance with the regs hence engines are being down sized across the industry to meet them and still make money.

Your point around engine output is a nonsense no one holds the keys to any special sauce they can all do it if they want to.

[DogLog]

va1o said:

joe1145 said:

Strange that BMW can offer 375BHP in the M340i with the B58, but Toyota cant offer this in the Supra with the B58.

Was just about to post the same thing, I don’t understand this either. The UK M340i has the higher output version of the engine but the Z4 M40i and Supra appear to be capped. Doesn’t make sense to me, must be something else at play here....

Indeed.
Are there some other rules about model average emissions or something?
If not then it makes no sense.

[jimPH]

Wills2 said:

jimPH said:

Wills2 said:

jimPH said:

J2daG1990 said:

Litchfield can take one up to 420BHP anyway with an ECU remap so does it really matter?

Because with the better pistons and bigger turbo, Litchfield could get 480hp.

Anyway, how is Mercedes getting 415 from a 4 pot 2.0 on euro 6, yet Toyota/BMW only get 375 from this 6 pot 3.0.

BMW used to get 1400hp out of a 1.5l 4 pot in the 80's but that's not the point, Merc used to sell you a 6.2 with 457hp when BMW would get 507hp from 5.0l, so what? It all comes down to the car, its positioning what they want to let it produce and the power delivery characteristics they are after...

The equivalent Merc was the E63 with the same engine producing 518hp.

But we are talking in terms of euro6 compliancy. If Merc can make 415 and be compliant from the M139. I'm quite sure Toyota/BMW can with the B58.

We are talking 47hp, not 100.

Because that's all they want to get out of it for the cost benefit return of turning up the wick on a larger engine and maintaining compliance with the regs hence engines are being down sized across the industry to meet them and still make money.

Your point around engine output is a nonsense no one holds the keys to any special sauce they can all do it if they want to.

So we are talking about the same thing. It's not just about the emmisions regs.

[foxhounduk]

Shmee said:

Don't forget one of the greatest cars ever; the Porsche Carrera GT! There have been a bunch of Gallardo variants too.

Oh yes! Thanks! I forgot about the Carrera GT and Lambos!

[MB140]

unsprung said:

A four-door saloon like Dodge Charger might not be high on the list of vehicles cross-shopped with a Toyota Supra.

The Dodge Challenger, a two-door coupe, would be closer. As would Camaro and Mustang. Each is available with more power than Supra and at a lower price. But none is as small as Supra. Challenger is largest of all and its rear seats are not merely decorative, but reasonably comfortable for some adults.

The Nissan 370Z NISMO variant has a 350 hp V6 for similar money. Both cars are the same width, but Supra is longer and heavier.

If they would only update the interior on the 370 nismo and in particular the infotainment to accept android auto/CarPlay they I would have one in a heartbeat.

We’ve had 350 and 370z in the past but the interior is soooo dated now. Such a shame.

Reference the 375hp supra, who gives a monkeys. Many people are running well in to 400+ bhp with a map and intercooler change. If you want a faster supra, map it.

[Brett748]

I’m all for saving the planet, but let’s be sensible. Things are out of control, Suzuki are discontinuing the new Jimny in Europe because it messes up their c02 output. It is a modern small 1.5 litre petrol engine for gods sake.

[VeeFource]

Brett748 said:

I’m all for saving the planet, but let’s be sensible. Things are out of control, Suzuki are discontinuing the new Jimny in Europe because it messes up their c02 output. It is a modern small 1.5 litre petrol engine for gods sake.

I wonder how much carbon has gone into setting up the new line for this too. Not to mention all the Suzuki employees going to and from work whilst working on the model.

Said this sort of thing before on here but will say it again; how much extra emissions are we talking about here compared to a 1 litre or even an EV does this 1.5 emit? Especially when you think about how much a person creates in their lifetime but people can have as many kids as they want. More than 2 should be taxed in my book, not the odd car with a bit of extra poke.

[irocfan]

Stick Legs said:

1) God it's ugly.
2) If you want one then surely you just grey import it?

1 - I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this (it does look better in the metal - but not by a huge amount!)
2 - indeed, grey import if you're that bothered (I suspect no one will be)

[anonymous-user]

Solution?

Every owner has to pay the extra cost of planting a tree somewhere too offset the co2 it emits.

Owners get a more fun supra to play with and the rest of us gain a tree. WIN WIN!

Thankyou

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

irocfan said:

1 - I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this (it does look better in the metal - but not by a huge amount!)
2 - indeed, grey import if you're that bothered (I suspect no one will be)

not convinced you'd be able to grey import it. It will need a TDN chassis designation number which shows its confirmation to EU emissions regs amongst other things which is doesn't. Therefore it won't pass the SVA/ type approval process so you can't use on the road.

[Teddy Lop]

foxhounduk said:

astrsxi77 said:

Ironic. It used to be North American car enthusiasts looking on in envy at the European market, whose more highly-spec'd and tuned models were unavailable for reasons including their greater emissions and reduced fuel economy. The US-only E60 M5 manual was a strange exception to this.

I suspect this envy switch-around will only get worse if the NA market remains resistant to the ICE downsizing and EV bandwagon currently afflicting Europe.

You raise a good point with the manual E60 M5. This was a crime in my eyes how they didn't offer this to the UK market. This is what literally all BMW buffs want; big engine, manual, rear wheel drive. There is and was no other manual v10 apart from the E60 and the R8 V10 I think.

I think there is (and always has been) a huge disconect between what most people buying these cars new spec, and what petrolheads on a car forum think - if there was enough of a market I'm sure BMW would have offered it. On autotrader right now, filter ^3 liter petrol 4 series, only 10% are manual, and that's a smaller car.

And, the irony of the yanks alone getting the high power version struck me too, what's the future, build plain vanilla emission compliant cars and a resurgence of aftermarket tuning? Sell a car as a basis, like the 90s jap cars with crazy tunable engines engineered way beyond what was necessary for their 260hp?

[paulrockliffe]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

not convinced you'd be able to grey import it. It will need a TDN chassis designation number which shows its confirmation to EU emissions regs amongst other things which is doesn't. Therefore it won't pass the SVA/ type approval process so you can't use on the road.

Not sure that's correct, depends if the issue is compliance or fleet average. If it's fleet average, a grey import will stand alone and be fine.

[Karl_Alp]

joe1145 said:

Strange that BMW can offer 375BHP in the M340i with the B58, but Toyota cant offer this in the Supra with the B58.

I was thinking exactly the same, to the point I just checked the M340 configurator. Very odd.

[irocfan]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

irocfan said:

1 - I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this (it does look better in the metal - but not by a huge amount!)
2 - indeed, grey import if you're that bothered (I suspect no one will be)

not convinced you'd be able to grey import it. It will need a TDN chassis designation number which shows its confirmation to EU emissions regs amongst other things which is doesn't. Therefore it won't pass the SVA/ type approval process so you can't use on the road.

how would you not be able to have a grey import? Look at the Yank car scene over here, one would imagine that 90% of those were grey and don't meet EU regs...