RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender | The short review
Discussion
AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
I think it is pretty much spot on. Both the Defender and the Caterham are British-born highly compromised 'vintage' designs which appeal to a small number of people, are used for a specific purpose, and are (were) made in low volumes. Landrover don't want to build a Caterham, they want to build a Golf R, and I think they have probably succeded.
Yes but the Golf R isn't a small rear wheel drive two seater. New defender is still a very capable off road vehicle, with a great payload and towing capacity. While it may not be rugged by old Defender standards, it certainly is compared to the current range. I don't know. For me (and as a high-earning, outdoorsy 41yo family man who should be their prime target) it has none of the authenticity or unpretentiousness of the original. I appreciate it is probably a great car, and I bought my D4 new, so am no stranger to a JLR dealership, but it just doesn't do it for me. I'll keep my UN-spec Hilux for now. I dare say I'll still go and take a look at one once back in the UK though.
LimaDelta said:
At the risk of opening up old wounds, please allow me to try to help people understand the disappointment this new Defender represents for many people.
Imagine if you will a pub. Let's call it 'The Defender'. It is a nice old country pub. It has been around for years and is a little rough around the edges but is comforting, unthreatening, familiar. There is a real fire and condensation dripping down the windows. The drink selection is adequate and there is a dog sleeping happily in the corner. The clientel are a cosmopolitan bunch. A real mix of world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money. The pub is a happy place, if not hugely successful.
Then one day the landlord decides to renovate. He spends a fortune on new decor, double glazing, bright lights. There is now music, and food eaten from pieces of slate instead of plates. The dog now lives in a handbag and the locals have been replaced by boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones who pop in for lunch now and then. Everybody is loud and the drinks are now treble the price. Instead of traditional ales there are 27 micro-brewed beers. There are 100 different gins and a dozen tonics. The real fire has been replaced with a flat-screen TV.
The locals move on. They are neither welcome nor comfortable in the new pub. They find other watering holes (I've heard the Hilux Head is decent and the Isuzu's Arms does a good roast). Some might pop back every so often but always leave with a sense of sadness, remembering the good times which are no more. The landlord is happy and business is booming. By most metrics the pub is 'better', but it is not the same. It's not a bad pub, it's just not 'The Defender'.
The locals had no right to claim any real sense of ownership of the pub, but that doesn't stop them feeling a real loss when it is taken away. Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more
Brilliant analogy!Imagine if you will a pub. Let's call it 'The Defender'. It is a nice old country pub. It has been around for years and is a little rough around the edges but is comforting, unthreatening, familiar. There is a real fire and condensation dripping down the windows. The drink selection is adequate and there is a dog sleeping happily in the corner. The clientel are a cosmopolitan bunch. A real mix of world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money. The pub is a happy place, if not hugely successful.
Then one day the landlord decides to renovate. He spends a fortune on new decor, double glazing, bright lights. There is now music, and food eaten from pieces of slate instead of plates. The dog now lives in a handbag and the locals have been replaced by boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones who pop in for lunch now and then. Everybody is loud and the drinks are now treble the price. Instead of traditional ales there are 27 micro-brewed beers. There are 100 different gins and a dozen tonics. The real fire has been replaced with a flat-screen TV.
The locals move on. They are neither welcome nor comfortable in the new pub. They find other watering holes (I've heard the Hilux Head is decent and the Isuzu's Arms does a good roast). Some might pop back every so often but always leave with a sense of sadness, remembering the good times which are no more. The landlord is happy and business is booming. By most metrics the pub is 'better', but it is not the same. It's not a bad pub, it's just not 'The Defender'.
The locals had no right to claim any real sense of ownership of the pub, but that doesn't stop them feeling a real loss when it is taken away. Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more
There is some awful nonsense here. People saying that the market for proper utility vehicles is tiny don't have a clue what they are talking about.
There are 150,000 farms in the UK, 350,000 building companies. Not to mention army, untilities, etc. Obviously there are millions of people working in these industries.
A proper ladder frame Defender would have enabled them to build a pick up version of the machine. Pickup sales are booming and contrary to popular belief the vast majority of them are as work vehicles. There are also thousands of land cruiser Prado sold throughout the world ever year. The market is huge and a hell of a lot less crowded than the market for people who want to look like they go off road but don't.
I also suggest a lot of you should go to your nearest mart or building site and you will see plenty of reasonably new 4x4s. Most quite basic but rugged and unlikely to cause problems. Land Rover have totally positioned themselves out of this market now with this nonsense new vehicle. I guarantee that it will cannibalise Discovery sales and achieve nothing else. It's too complex to be a reliable work vehicle.
I'd imagine it was easier for Land Rover to make this based on the technology they already had than go to the effort of developing something capable of rivalling a proper vehicle like a Hilux or Landcruiser though.
There are 150,000 farms in the UK, 350,000 building companies. Not to mention army, untilities, etc. Obviously there are millions of people working in these industries.
A proper ladder frame Defender would have enabled them to build a pick up version of the machine. Pickup sales are booming and contrary to popular belief the vast majority of them are as work vehicles. There are also thousands of land cruiser Prado sold throughout the world ever year. The market is huge and a hell of a lot less crowded than the market for people who want to look like they go off road but don't.
I also suggest a lot of you should go to your nearest mart or building site and you will see plenty of reasonably new 4x4s. Most quite basic but rugged and unlikely to cause problems. Land Rover have totally positioned themselves out of this market now with this nonsense new vehicle. I guarantee that it will cannibalise Discovery sales and achieve nothing else. It's too complex to be a reliable work vehicle.
I'd imagine it was easier for Land Rover to make this based on the technology they already had than go to the effort of developing something capable of rivalling a proper vehicle like a Hilux or Landcruiser though.
Edited by llcoolmac on Thursday 26th March 17:09
llcoolmac said:
There is some awful nonsense here. People saying that the market for proper utility vehicles is tiny don't have a clue what they are talking about.
There are 150,000 farms in the UK, 350,000 building companies. Not to mention army, untilities, etc. Obviously there are millions of people working in these industries.
A proper ladder frame Defender would have enabled them to build a pick up version of the machine. Pickup sales are booming and contrary to popular belief the vast majority of them are as work vehicles. There are also thousands of land cruiser Prado sold throughout the world ever year. The market is huge and a hell of a lot less crowded than the market for people who want to look like they go off road but don't.
I also suggest a lot of you should go to your nearest mart or building site and you will see plenty of reasonably new 4x4s. Most quite basic but rugged and unlikely to cause problems. Land Rover have totally positioned themselves out of this market now with this nonsense new vehicle. I guarantee that it will cannibalise Discovery sales and achieve nothing else. It's too complex to be a reliable work vehicle.
I'd imagine it was easier for Land Rover to make this based on the technology they already had than go to the effort of developing something capable of rivalling a proper vehicle like a Hilux or Landcruiser though.
If by here I assume you mean your own post. Why do people keep trotting out this absolute nonsense. There are 150,000 farms in the UK, 350,000 building companies. Not to mention army, untilities, etc. Obviously there are millions of people working in these industries.
A proper ladder frame Defender would have enabled them to build a pick up version of the machine. Pickup sales are booming and contrary to popular belief the vast majority of them are as work vehicles. There are also thousands of land cruiser Prado sold throughout the world ever year. The market is huge and a hell of a lot less crowded than the market for people who want to look like they go off road but don't.
I also suggest a lot of you should go to your nearest mart or building site and you will see plenty of reasonably new 4x4s. Most quite basic but rugged and unlikely to cause problems. Land Rover have totally positioned themselves out of this market now with this nonsense new vehicle. I guarantee that it will cannibalise Discovery sales and achieve nothing else. It's too complex to be a reliable work vehicle.
I'd imagine it was easier for Land Rover to make this based on the technology they already had than go to the effort of developing something capable of rivalling a proper vehicle like a Hilux or Landcruiser though.
Edited by llcoolmac on Thursday 26th March 17:09
Good grief there is some industrial grade twaddle on this thread. As Henry Catchpole points out in his Namibia video (well worth a look) the direct rival for a Defender these days is the Toyota Landcruiser. A quick look at Toyota UK's site confirms that their retail price starts at £49,845. That is about bang on where a Defender 110 starts. Basic for a T6.1 Transporter Shuttle is over £36K. Just because a vehicle is made for a utility market does not mean it will be cheap. What is the point of developing the Defender to compete against pickups when the D-Max and the Hilux have the bottom and top of that market sewn up. Passed a D-Max the other day on an Isuzu forecourt which was retailing for £40K! A fully specced Defender is going to be an expensive thing and, in my view, a highly desirable one. I would take one of these over an X5 every day of the week. Again Mr Catchpole makes a good point. If Ferrari stopped making the 250GTO last year then came out with the 812 Superfast some people's arms would be up in horror. It's cheaper than a Range Rover, like the old Series were. That is where it fits in their lineup and that's the sort of money we'll need to find to buy one.
tonyshepp said:
LimaDelta said:
At the risk of opening up old wounds, please allow me to try to help people understand the disappointment this new Defender represents for many people.
Imagine if you will a pub. Let's call it 'The Defender'. It is a nice old country pub. It has been around for years and is a little rough around the edges but is comforting, unthreatening, familiar. There is a real fire and condensation dripping down the windows. The drink selection is adequate and there is a dog sleeping happily in the corner. The clientel are a cosmopolitan bunch. A real mix of world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money. The pub is a happy place, if not hugely successful.
Then one day the landlord decides to renovate. He spends a fortune on new decor, double glazing, bright lights. There is now music, and food eaten from pieces of slate instead of plates. The dog now lives in a handbag and the locals have been replaced by boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones who pop in for lunch now and then. Everybody is loud and the drinks are now treble the price. Instead of traditional ales there are 27 micro-brewed beers. There are 100 different gins and a dozen tonics. The real fire has been replaced with a flat-screen TV.
The locals move on. They are neither welcome nor comfortable in the new pub. They find other watering holes (I've heard the Hilux Head is decent and the Isuzu's Arms does a good roast). Some might pop back every so often but always leave with a sense of sadness, remembering the good times which are no more. The landlord is happy and business is booming. By most metrics the pub is 'better', but it is not the same. It's not a bad pub, it's just not 'The Defender'.
The locals had no right to claim any real sense of ownership of the pub, but that doesn't stop them feeling a real loss when it is taken away. Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more
Brilliant analogy!Imagine if you will a pub. Let's call it 'The Defender'. It is a nice old country pub. It has been around for years and is a little rough around the edges but is comforting, unthreatening, familiar. There is a real fire and condensation dripping down the windows. The drink selection is adequate and there is a dog sleeping happily in the corner. The clientel are a cosmopolitan bunch. A real mix of world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money. The pub is a happy place, if not hugely successful.
Then one day the landlord decides to renovate. He spends a fortune on new decor, double glazing, bright lights. There is now music, and food eaten from pieces of slate instead of plates. The dog now lives in a handbag and the locals have been replaced by boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones who pop in for lunch now and then. Everybody is loud and the drinks are now treble the price. Instead of traditional ales there are 27 micro-brewed beers. There are 100 different gins and a dozen tonics. The real fire has been replaced with a flat-screen TV.
The locals move on. They are neither welcome nor comfortable in the new pub. They find other watering holes (I've heard the Hilux Head is decent and the Isuzu's Arms does a good roast). Some might pop back every so often but always leave with a sense of sadness, remembering the good times which are no more. The landlord is happy and business is booming. By most metrics the pub is 'better', but it is not the same. It's not a bad pub, it's just not 'The Defender'.
The locals had no right to claim any real sense of ownership of the pub, but that doesn't stop them feeling a real loss when it is taken away. Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more
By the end of the 1970s the old git at The Defender was actually putting people on a waiting list if they wanted to come in - they had to keep coming back seven days in a row to prove they really wanted to be there. The Hilux Head would let anyone in, no questions asked. Then the landlord of The Defender's wife leaves him and his finances go off the rails, so he has to put his prices up by 30% overnight. Sometimes if he's caught short he'll just increase the price of his drinks in an instant, so you'll pay for a pint but only get a half because that's all you paid for at the new prices. Unsurprisingly most of the regulars, who at the end of the day just wanted a drink and a chat like anyone else, ended up going over to the Hilux Head, as did all the visitors from out of town. By the 1980s The Defender was barely covering its running costs, and the landlord was actually making the vast majority of his income from his other business in town, The Rover on The Range, which offered exactly the same ales as The Defender but was done up as a Little Lord Fauntleroy theme pub and was wildly popular with American tourists. One night, leaning on the bar of the The Defender (which wasn't quite wide enough, so his elbow had to rest on the top of one of the bar stools...) the landlord was heard to moan "this place doesn't really bring me anything these days, but I haven't put anything into it in decades and the brewery gives me a good deal on the beer because of the amount I buy for The Rover on The Range, so I might as well keep it going. It's not like I've got anything better to do."
The years pass. The landlord passes away and his son takes over. The son realises that all the world adventurers, builders, military types and farmers
have been shacked up in the Hilux Head for years, apart from a few crusty old regulars who still turn up at The Defender from force of habit, but there's another sort of customer coming in. They're "boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones" who, bored of their soulless and bland corporate lives and having just moved to that nice new housing development on the outside of town, want to show how authentic, rural and free-thinking they are by all going to the same run-down, smelly, tatty old pub, where they pay over the odds for an experience that is objectively worse than anything the Hilux Head offers but that doesn't have the cachet of being a proper old boozer for real manly men. So the new landlord keeps the threadbare carpets, the uncomfortable benches and the useless fireplace, and the same old range of boring traditional ales, but gives the front door a new coat of Farrow & Ball paint, puts a small TV on the wall (better than nothing but some of the old decrepit regulars don't like it...) and gets in a small and unpromising range of pub grub. This secures the existence of The Defender for a few more years. While the son isn't as irracible as his old man, he still sometimes chucks everyone out at odd hours if he's got better things to do. The drones love this, because they're know they're getting the fabled, unfiltered, genuine, The Defender experience.
The new clientele will tell anyone who listens how great The Defender is and how the Hilux Head isn't a proper pub and it's just for poseurs, even though the latter is the one where all the factory workers go after their shift, the famers head after a day's harvest, the soldiers from the barracks go when they're allowed out, or indeed anyone who just wants to go to a pub without worrying about what sort of image their choice of establishement projects on the world. The drones at The Defender have a WhatsApp group where they secretly complain about the fireplace, the uncomfortable seats, the nasty-tasting beer, the smelly dog, the dripping walls and the unpredictable opening hours. Some of them even suggest fixes for it and begin selling cushions which their comrades can bring to the pub to make the experience a bit more bearable.
Then the landlord sees the WhatsApp group and realises that even his loyal customer base thinks his pub is a bit rubbish in many ways. It has no future so he'll have to close for a few years and drastically remodel the place.
Pick up the analogy again here...
Edited by 2xChevrons on Thursday 26th March 17:46
2xChevrons said:
It is a well-written analogy, but it's got one error: The landlord doesn't suddenly decide to redecorate for no reason. There's a missing step where the Hilux Head opens down the road in 1972 and all the "world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money" de-camp there over the space of a decade because it offers the same comforting, familiar, unpretentious and practical package as The Defender but without the condensation on the walls, a wood-burning stove rather than a draughty open fire which shoots soot into the room if the wind's in the wrong direction, the dog doesn't have mange, the chairs and seats are just like the ones in The Defender but still with the stuffing left and the landlord at the Hilux Head actually runs a mop and cloth around the place every now and then so the traditional ales don't taste slightly of barrel-wash and there's no lingering smell of stale booze and fags. Oh, and the landlord of the Hilux Head is always cheery and friendly and he keeps the pub open in the hours he says he will.The chap who ran The Defender was a moody old sod who would take funny turns against customers for no real reason and sometimes if he'd had a bad day he'd just shut up shop altogether without warning or explanation. The regulars all loved it as that's just how he was and it was part of the charm of the place, but if you just wanted a drink and a packet of crisps it could be really irritating.
By the end of the 1970s the old git at The Defender was actually putting people on a waiting list if they wanted to come in - they had to keep coming back seven days in a row to prove they really wanted to be there. The Hilux Head would let anyone in, no questions asked. Then the landlord of The Defender's wife leaves him and his finances go off the rails, so he has to put his prices up by 30% overnight. Sometimes if he's caught short he'll just increase the price of his drinks in an instant, so you'll pay for a pint but only get a half because that's all you paid for at the new prices. Unsurprisingly most of the regulars, who at the end of the day just wanted a drink and a chat like anyone else, ended up going over to the Hilux Head, as did all the visitors from out of town. By the 1980s The Defender was barely covering its running costs, and the landlord was actually making the vast majority of his income from his other business in town, The Rover on The Range, which offered exactly the same ales as The Defender but was done up as a Little Lord Fauntleroy theme pub and was wildly popular with American tourists. One night, leaning on the bar of the The Defender (which wasn't quite wide enough, so his elbow had to rest on the top of one of the bar stools...) the landlord was heard to moan "this place doesn't really bring me anything these days, but I haven't put anything into it in decades and the brewery gives me a good deal on the beer because of the amount I buy for The Rover on The Range, so I might as well keep it going. It's not like I've got anything better to do."
The years pass. The landlord passes away and his son takes over. The son realises that all the world adventurers, builders, military types and farmers
have been shacked up in the Hilux Head for years, apart from a few crusty old regulars who still turn up at The Defender from force of habit, but there's another sort of customer coming in. They're "boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones" who, bored of their soulless and bland corporate lives and having just moved to that nice new housing development on the outside of town, want to show how authentic, rural and free-thinking they are by all going to the same run-down, smelly, tatty old pub, where they pay over the odds for an experience that is objectively worse than anything the Hilux Head offers but that doesn't have the cachet of being a proper old boozer for real manly men. So the new landlord keeps the threadbare carpets, the uncomfortable benches and the useless fireplace, and the same old range of boring traditional ales, but gives the front door a new coat of Farrow & Ball paint, puts a small TV on the wall (better than nothing but some of the old decrepit regulars don't like it...) and gets in a small and unpromising range of pub grub. This secures the existence of The Defender for a few more years. While the son isn't as irracible as his old man, he still sometimes chucks everyone out at odd hours if he's got better things to do. The drones love this, because they're know they're getting the fabled, unfiltered, genuine, The Defender experience.
The new clientele will tell anyone who listens how great The Defender is and how the Hilux Head isn't a proper pub and it's just for poseurs, even though the latter is the one where all the factory workers go after their shift, the famers head after a day's harvest, the soldiers from the barracks go when they're allowed out, or indeed anyone who just wants to go to a pub without worrying about what sort of image their choice of establishement projects on the world. The drones at The Defender have a WhatsApp group where they secretly complain about the fireplace, the uncomfortable seats, the nasty-tasting beer, the smelly dog, the dripping walls and the unpredictable opening hours. Some of them even suggest fixes for it and begin selling cushions which their comrades can bring to the pub to make the experience a bit more bearable.
Then the landlord sees the WhatsApp group and realises that even his loyal customer base thinks his pub is a bit rubbish in many ways. It has no future so he'll have to close for a few years and drastically remodel the place.
Pick up the analogy again here...
Amazing work. By the end of the 1970s the old git at The Defender was actually putting people on a waiting list if they wanted to come in - they had to keep coming back seven days in a row to prove they really wanted to be there. The Hilux Head would let anyone in, no questions asked. Then the landlord of The Defender's wife leaves him and his finances go off the rails, so he has to put his prices up by 30% overnight. Sometimes if he's caught short he'll just increase the price of his drinks in an instant, so you'll pay for a pint but only get a half because that's all you paid for at the new prices. Unsurprisingly most of the regulars, who at the end of the day just wanted a drink and a chat like anyone else, ended up going over to the Hilux Head, as did all the visitors from out of town. By the 1980s The Defender was barely covering its running costs, and the landlord was actually making the vast majority of his income from his other business in town, The Rover on The Range, which offered exactly the same ales as The Defender but was done up as a Little Lord Fauntleroy theme pub and was wildly popular with American tourists. One night, leaning on the bar of the The Defender (which wasn't quite wide enough, so his elbow had to rest on the top of one of the bar stools...) the landlord was heard to moan "this place doesn't really bring me anything these days, but I haven't put anything into it in decades and the brewery gives me a good deal on the beer because of the amount I buy for The Rover on The Range, so I might as well keep it going. It's not like I've got anything better to do."
The years pass. The landlord passes away and his son takes over. The son realises that all the world adventurers, builders, military types and farmers
have been shacked up in the Hilux Head for years, apart from a few crusty old regulars who still turn up at The Defender from force of habit, but there's another sort of customer coming in. They're "boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones" who, bored of their soulless and bland corporate lives and having just moved to that nice new housing development on the outside of town, want to show how authentic, rural and free-thinking they are by all going to the same run-down, smelly, tatty old pub, where they pay over the odds for an experience that is objectively worse than anything the Hilux Head offers but that doesn't have the cachet of being a proper old boozer for real manly men. So the new landlord keeps the threadbare carpets, the uncomfortable benches and the useless fireplace, and the same old range of boring traditional ales, but gives the front door a new coat of Farrow & Ball paint, puts a small TV on the wall (better than nothing but some of the old decrepit regulars don't like it...) and gets in a small and unpromising range of pub grub. This secures the existence of The Defender for a few more years. While the son isn't as irracible as his old man, he still sometimes chucks everyone out at odd hours if he's got better things to do. The drones love this, because they're know they're getting the fabled, unfiltered, genuine, The Defender experience.
The new clientele will tell anyone who listens how great The Defender is and how the Hilux Head isn't a proper pub and it's just for poseurs, even though the latter is the one where all the factory workers go after their shift, the famers head after a day's harvest, the soldiers from the barracks go when they're allowed out, or indeed anyone who just wants to go to a pub without worrying about what sort of image their choice of establishement projects on the world. The drones at The Defender have a WhatsApp group where they secretly complain about the fireplace, the uncomfortable seats, the nasty-tasting beer, the smelly dog, the dripping walls and the unpredictable opening hours. Some of them even suggest fixes for it and begin selling cushions which their comrades can bring to the pub to make the experience a bit more bearable.
Then the landlord sees the WhatsApp group and realises that even his loyal customer base thinks his pub is a bit rubbish in many ways. It has no future so he'll have to close for a few years and drastically remodel the place.
Pick up the analogy again here...
Edited by 2xChevrons on Thursday 26th March 17:46
AngryPartsBloke said:
2xChevrons said:
It is a well-written analogy, but it's got one error: The landlord doesn't suddenly decide to redecorate for no reason. There's a missing step where the Hilux Head opens down the road in 1972 and all the "world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money" de-camp there over the space of a decade because it offers the same comforting, familiar, unpretentious and practical package as The Defender but without the condensation on the walls, a wood-burning stove rather than a draughty open fire which shoots soot into the room if the wind's in the wrong direction, the dog doesn't have mange, the chairs and seats are just like the ones in The Defender but still with the stuffing left and the landlord at the Hilux Head actually runs a mop and cloth around the place every now and then so the traditional ales don't taste slightly of barrel-wash and there's no lingering smell of stale booze and fags. Oh, and the landlord of the Hilux Head is always cheery and friendly and he keeps the pub open in the hours he says he will.The chap who ran The Defender was a moody old sod who would take funny turns against customers for no real reason and sometimes if he'd had a bad day he'd just shut up shop altogether without warning or explanation. The regulars all loved it as that's just how he was and it was part of the charm of the place, but if you just wanted a drink and a packet of crisps it could be really irritating.
By the end of the 1970s the old git at The Defender was actually putting people on a waiting list if they wanted to come in - they had to keep coming back seven days in a row to prove they really wanted to be there. The Hilux Head would let anyone in, no questions asked. Then the landlord of The Defender's wife leaves him and his finances go off the rails, so he has to put his prices up by 30% overnight. Sometimes if he's caught short he'll just increase the price of his drinks in an instant, so you'll pay for a pint but only get a half because that's all you paid for at the new prices. Unsurprisingly most of the regulars, who at the end of the day just wanted a drink and a chat like anyone else, ended up going over to the Hilux Head, as did all the visitors from out of town. By the 1980s The Defender was barely covering its running costs, and the landlord was actually making the vast majority of his income from his other business in town, The Rover on The Range, which offered exactly the same ales as The Defender but was done up as a Little Lord Fauntleroy theme pub and was wildly popular with American tourists. One night, leaning on the bar of the The Defender (which wasn't quite wide enough, so his elbow had to rest on the top of one of the bar stools...) the landlord was heard to moan "this place doesn't really bring me anything these days, but I haven't put anything into it in decades and the brewery gives me a good deal on the beer because of the amount I buy for The Rover on The Range, so I might as well keep it going. It's not like I've got anything better to do."
The years pass. The landlord passes away and his son takes over. The son realises that all the world adventurers, builders, military types and farmers
have been shacked up in the Hilux Head for years, apart from a few crusty old regulars who still turn up at The Defender from force of habit, but there's another sort of customer coming in. They're "boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones" who, bored of their soulless and bland corporate lives and having just moved to that nice new housing development on the outside of town, want to show how authentic, rural and free-thinking they are by all going to the same run-down, smelly, tatty old pub, where they pay over the odds for an experience that is objectively worse than anything the Hilux Head offers but that doesn't have the cachet of being a proper old boozer for real manly men. So the new landlord keeps the threadbare carpets, the uncomfortable benches and the useless fireplace, and the same old range of boring traditional ales, but gives the front door a new coat of Farrow & Ball paint, puts a small TV on the wall (better than nothing but some of the old decrepit regulars don't like it...) and gets in a small and unpromising range of pub grub. This secures the existence of The Defender for a few more years. While the son isn't as irracible as his old man, he still sometimes chucks everyone out at odd hours if he's got better things to do. The drones love this, because they're know they're getting the fabled, unfiltered, genuine, The Defender experience.
The new clientele will tell anyone who listens how great The Defender is and how the Hilux Head isn't a proper pub and it's just for poseurs, even though the latter is the one where all the factory workers go after their shift, the famers head after a day's harvest, the soldiers from the barracks go when they're allowed out, or indeed anyone who just wants to go to a pub without worrying about what sort of image their choice of establishement projects on the world. The drones at The Defender have a WhatsApp group where they secretly complain about the fireplace, the uncomfortable seats, the nasty-tasting beer, the smelly dog, the dripping walls and the unpredictable opening hours. Some of them even suggest fixes for it and begin selling cushions which their comrades can bring to the pub to make the experience a bit more bearable.
Then the landlord sees the WhatsApp group and realises that even his loyal customer base thinks his pub is a bit rubbish in many ways. It has no future so he'll have to close for a few years and drastically remodel the place.
Pick up the analogy again here...
Amazing work. By the end of the 1970s the old git at The Defender was actually putting people on a waiting list if they wanted to come in - they had to keep coming back seven days in a row to prove they really wanted to be there. The Hilux Head would let anyone in, no questions asked. Then the landlord of The Defender's wife leaves him and his finances go off the rails, so he has to put his prices up by 30% overnight. Sometimes if he's caught short he'll just increase the price of his drinks in an instant, so you'll pay for a pint but only get a half because that's all you paid for at the new prices. Unsurprisingly most of the regulars, who at the end of the day just wanted a drink and a chat like anyone else, ended up going over to the Hilux Head, as did all the visitors from out of town. By the 1980s The Defender was barely covering its running costs, and the landlord was actually making the vast majority of his income from his other business in town, The Rover on The Range, which offered exactly the same ales as The Defender but was done up as a Little Lord Fauntleroy theme pub and was wildly popular with American tourists. One night, leaning on the bar of the The Defender (which wasn't quite wide enough, so his elbow had to rest on the top of one of the bar stools...) the landlord was heard to moan "this place doesn't really bring me anything these days, but I haven't put anything into it in decades and the brewery gives me a good deal on the beer because of the amount I buy for The Rover on The Range, so I might as well keep it going. It's not like I've got anything better to do."
The years pass. The landlord passes away and his son takes over. The son realises that all the world adventurers, builders, military types and farmers
have been shacked up in the Hilux Head for years, apart from a few crusty old regulars who still turn up at The Defender from force of habit, but there's another sort of customer coming in. They're "boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones" who, bored of their soulless and bland corporate lives and having just moved to that nice new housing development on the outside of town, want to show how authentic, rural and free-thinking they are by all going to the same run-down, smelly, tatty old pub, where they pay over the odds for an experience that is objectively worse than anything the Hilux Head offers but that doesn't have the cachet of being a proper old boozer for real manly men. So the new landlord keeps the threadbare carpets, the uncomfortable benches and the useless fireplace, and the same old range of boring traditional ales, but gives the front door a new coat of Farrow & Ball paint, puts a small TV on the wall (better than nothing but some of the old decrepit regulars don't like it...) and gets in a small and unpromising range of pub grub. This secures the existence of The Defender for a few more years. While the son isn't as irracible as his old man, he still sometimes chucks everyone out at odd hours if he's got better things to do. The drones love this, because they're know they're getting the fabled, unfiltered, genuine, The Defender experience.
The new clientele will tell anyone who listens how great The Defender is and how the Hilux Head isn't a proper pub and it's just for poseurs, even though the latter is the one where all the factory workers go after their shift, the famers head after a day's harvest, the soldiers from the barracks go when they're allowed out, or indeed anyone who just wants to go to a pub without worrying about what sort of image their choice of establishement projects on the world. The drones at The Defender have a WhatsApp group where they secretly complain about the fireplace, the uncomfortable seats, the nasty-tasting beer, the smelly dog, the dripping walls and the unpredictable opening hours. Some of them even suggest fixes for it and begin selling cushions which their comrades can bring to the pub to make the experience a bit more bearable.
Then the landlord sees the WhatsApp group and realises that even his loyal customer base thinks his pub is a bit rubbish in many ways. It has no future so he'll have to close for a few years and drastically remodel the place.
Pick up the analogy again here...
Love it.But it needs something about hosing out a sheep in there somewhere...
llcoolmac said:
There is some awful nonsense here. People saying that the market for proper utility vehicles is tiny don't have a clue what they are talking about.
There are 150,000 farms in the UK, 350,000 building companies. Not to mention army, untilities, etc. Obviously there are millions of people working in these industries.
A proper ladder frame Defender would have enabled them to build a pick up version of the machine. Pickup sales are booming and contrary to popular belief the vast majority of them are as work vehicles. There are also thousands of land cruiser Prado sold throughout the world ever year. The market is huge and a hell of a lot less crowded than the market for people who want to look like they go off road but don't.
I also suggest a lot of you should go to your nearest mart or building site and you will see plenty of reasonably new 4x4s. Most quite basic but rugged and unlikely to cause problems. Land Rover have totally positioned themselves out of this market now with this nonsense new vehicle. I guarantee that it will cannibalise Discovery sales and achieve nothing else. It's too complex to be a reliable work vehicle.
I'd imagine it was easier for Land Rover to make this based on the technology they already had than go to the effort of developing something capable of rivalling a proper vehicle like a Hilux or Landcruiser though.
You're so deluded! There are 150,000 farms in the UK, 350,000 building companies. Not to mention army, untilities, etc. Obviously there are millions of people working in these industries.
A proper ladder frame Defender would have enabled them to build a pick up version of the machine. Pickup sales are booming and contrary to popular belief the vast majority of them are as work vehicles. There are also thousands of land cruiser Prado sold throughout the world ever year. The market is huge and a hell of a lot less crowded than the market for people who want to look like they go off road but don't.
I also suggest a lot of you should go to your nearest mart or building site and you will see plenty of reasonably new 4x4s. Most quite basic but rugged and unlikely to cause problems. Land Rover have totally positioned themselves out of this market now with this nonsense new vehicle. I guarantee that it will cannibalise Discovery sales and achieve nothing else. It's too complex to be a reliable work vehicle.
I'd imagine it was easier for Land Rover to make this based on the technology they already had than go to the effort of developing something capable of rivalling a proper vehicle like a Hilux or Landcruiser though.
Edited by llcoolmac on Thursday 26th March 17:09
Jammez said:
Can we agree it’s ok for some people to say “I like the new defender, it’s what the market wants but I can’t afford one”
Will that make some people feel better?
Loving the pub analogy!
Of course.Will that make some people feel better?
Loving the pub analogy!
It's also okay for people to not like it, for all manner of subjective or objective reasons.
What's slightly less OK is some of the delusional comments on her by the usual characters about markets that don't exist or that LR don't compete in.
LR Aren't a volume manufacturer, they don't want to compete against the likes of ford or Nissan. It's not even as easy a market as some are suggesting. Look at the X class, ending production after less than 3 years.
Military sales? Get real, that will never happen again. A lot of the old defenders they've sold off (many straight from being reconditioned because that's how the MOD like to roll), there's a few knocking around still but those kinds of light skinned vehicles won't be used as a basis for a patrol vehicle again. Some will be used on exercise etc, but the white fleet is full of base spec leased Toyota Hilux.
Utility companies, they've long been using Ducato & sprinter 4x4s of various flavours.
braddo said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
...
Military....
the white fleet is full of base spec leased Toyota Hilux.
...
Interesting. What is the white fleet used for?Military....
the white fleet is full of base spec leased Toyota Hilux.
...
Basically moving people and stores around. Some of it is leased and some of it is hired as needed through the CCS framework.
LimaDelta said:
Come on, don't sit on the fence, tell us what you really think.
Working on L663 was the nail in the coffin for me, so I took VR and walked away, built a campervan and went travelling.Corona virus has put a pretty big spanner in the works so I've got nothing but time on my hands now....
(Edit: when I've got Wi-Fi)
Edited by user0000001 on Friday 27th March 11:05
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