RE: McLaren seeks extra funding to mitigate losses

RE: McLaren seeks extra funding to mitigate losses

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Discussion

jhoneyball

1,539 posts

231 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
A1VDY said:
Great Post and sums up the reality of it all..
Worst still, the traffic levels in the UK at least keep climbing. When i got my car license in 1981 there were 19.3 million vehicles on the road. Today there are 38.6 million. Which is basically a doubling.

(source VEH0103 at https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-set... )

Realistically, any modern super/hypercar is a waste of time as a driving machine on normal roads unless you can find an empty road in the scottish highlands. You cant overtake. You are stuck in a procession. Add in speed cameras etc, and a supercar is realistically no faster from A to B than a hot hatchback. Which itself can easily be as quick as a junior, even senior supercar of the 80s. The days of fast runs across france are long long long gone.

What to do? If you want to "make progress" and have an intense road experience, get a decent motorbike. Even an 800cc is quicker on the road than any supercar, in real-world driving.

On my BMW Garmin satnav on my BMW K1300S, it has two modes -- car and motorbike. Bike mode route planning is about 30% faster on mapping than car mode, and thats a realistic outcome without being a hooligan.

mwstewart

5,698 posts

143 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
jhoneyball said:
Worst still, the traffic levels in the UK at least keep climbing. When i got my car license in 1981 there were 19.3 million vehicles on the road. Today there are 38.6 million. Which is basically a doubling.

(source VEH0103 at https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-set... )

Realistically, any modern super/hypercar is a waste of time as a driving machine on normal roads unless you can find an empty road in the scottish highlands. You cant overtake. You are stuck in a procession. Add in speed cameras etc, and a supercar is realistically no faster from A to B than a hot hatchback. Which itself can easily be as quick as a junior, even senior supercar of the 80s. The days of fast runs across france are long long long gone.

What to do? If you want to "make progress" and have an intense road experience, get a decent motorbike. Even an 800cc is quicker on the road than any supercar, in real-world driving.

On my BMW Garmin satnav on my BMW K1300S, it has two modes -- car and motorbike. Bike mode route planning is about 30% faster on mapping than car mode, and thats a realistic outcome without being a hooligan.
Outright speed doesn't necessarily equal enjoyment. The slightly older supercars are very engaging even at lower speeds.

Centurion07

8,018 posts

202 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
jhoneyball said:
Worst still, the traffic levels in the UK at least keep climbing. When i got my car license in 1981 there were 19.3 million vehicles on the road. Today there are 38.6 million. Which is basically a doubling.

(source VEH0103 at https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-set... )

Realistically, any modern super/hypercar is a waste of time as a driving machine on normal roads unless you can find an empty road in the scottish highlands. You cant overtake. You are stuck in a procession. Add in speed cameras etc, and a supercar is realistically no faster from A to B than a hot hatchback. Which itself can easily be as quick as a junior, even senior supercar of the 80s. The days of fast runs across france are long long long gone.

What to do? If you want to "make progress" and have an intense road experience, get a decent motorbike. Even an 800cc is quicker on the road than any supercar, in real-world driving.

On my BMW Garmin satnav on my BMW K1300S, it has two modes -- car and motorbike. Bike mode route planning is about 30% faster on mapping than car mode, and thats a realistic outcome without being a hooligan.
It's about the journey, not the destination.

You could also say "it's about the car, not the time you arrive".

You have two friends going to the same place both offering a lift. One in an Audi RS3 and one in a Ferrari. Which one are you choosing?

Driving a supercar is about so much more than the time it takes to get somewhere and if anything, being held up here and there by traffic makes those times when you DO get to open it up that little bit more special.

av185

11,260 posts

82 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
jhoneyball said:
Worst still, the traffic levels in the UK at least keep climbing. When i got my car license in 1981 there were 19.3 million vehicles on the road. Today there are 38.6 million. Which is basically a doubling.

(source VEH0103 at https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-set... )

Realistically, any modern super/hypercar is a waste of time as a driving machine on normal roads unless you can find an empty road in the scottish highlands. You cant overtake. You are stuck in a procession. Add in speed cameras etc, and a supercar is realistically no faster from A to B than a hot hatchback. Which itself can easily be as quick as a junior, even senior supercar of the 80s. The days of fast runs across france are long long long gone.

What to do? If you want to "make progress" and have an intense road experience, get a decent motorbike. Even an 800cc is quicker on the road than any supercar, in real-world driving.

On my BMW Garmin satnav on my BMW K1300S, it has two modes -- car and motorbike. Bike mode route planning is about 30% faster on mapping than car mode, and thats a realistic outcome without being a hooligan.
Disagree.

And as others have rightly said, driving certain 'supercars' whether they be older or the very few contemporary rapid cars left which provide the fine balanced amount of driver involvement even at lower speeds so the outright speed is irrelevant and you don't have to be 'on it' to experience engagement, challenge and essentially having fun which as we all know is what its all about.

There are many cars and not just certain 'supercars' which provide virtually zero driver interaction at any speed and I am not just talking about because of a soporific flappy paddle gearbox which essentially means my grandmother or a 12 year old could drive very easily.

Also there is absolutely no need to travel to Scotland to experience fine unrestricted driving roads as anyone aware of the best roads in Yorkshire Lancashire and Cumbria will concur.

All you need is a map to work out the most interesting if slower route but that which provides the greatest driving pleasure. Trouble is many folks complaining about crap driving roads don't/can't read maps and rely on brain dead sat nav for their journeys.

In fact thinking about it Scotland is perhaps now (pre covid) less attractive from a driving perspective due to excess tourists and a prevalance of over zealous plod.

We all know the bike/supercar debate has been done to death especially on PH and I would disagree strongly with your assertion that a 800 cc or any superbike is firstly more involving and secondly quicker than certain supercars on real world UK driving/riding roads given that both the rider and driver are within the same risk profiles.

Yes it may be possible to make slightly better progress on the right bike in a (legal) overtaking situation but as everyone knows bikes have nowhere near the limits of cornering capabilities of rapid cars and in the typically wet UK and or cold and damp roads they are clearly and have proven to be severely compromised.

CallThatMusic

83 posts

43 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
Got to agree with AV185 don’t come to Scotland, Police are everywhere
Great roads in England and Wales if you live there...
Stay away from Scotland it’s heaving with Police.

Centurion07

8,018 posts

202 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
av185 said:
I would disagree strongly with your assertion that a 800 cc or any superbike is firstly more involving...
They are most definitely more involving I'm afraid. biggrin

jhoneyball

1,539 posts

231 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
Well that stirred up the comments :-)

I agree older supercars are very involving. my contention was/is that new supercars are so intergalactically good that you cannot get anywhere near their limits of accelleration or cornering etc.

if I was going back to fast cars, I would go for a Caterham 620s. Or a morgan. Or Aerial Atom.

Centurion07

8,018 posts

202 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
jhoneyball said:
Well that stirred up the comments :-)

I agree older supercars are very involving. my contention was/is that new supercars are so intergalactically good that you cannot get anywhere near their limits of accelleration or cornering etc.

if I was going back to fast cars, I would go for a Caterham 620s. Or a morgan. Or Aerial Atom.
Surely that applies to all modern performance cars these days? Certainly, if you're getting near the limit of "even" a 620s or an Atom on the public road you want to have a word with yourself.

My point is, with the blurring of the line between supercar and performance cars these days, the one thing that really can differentiate the experience is what else they offer other than the actual driving experience, and there the gulf between the two groups is absolutely massive.

For example, take a trip in a Caterham, any Caterham, and aside from the fact you don't need to be travelling at warp speed to get a sense of excitement, pedestrians will be all smiles, other drivers will let you out of junctions etc etc. Do that same journey in a Focus RS or suchlike and you may as well be in a Yaris.

Pick a car that offers something other than just 0-60 or A to B times.



Max_Torque

15,176 posts

172 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
Petrus1983 said:
It’s time for these manufacturers to stop basing things around a wind tunnel, appreciate that most buyers don’t care about 2.8s 0-60 vs 3.8s 0-60 and give the designers free reign to design a proper, beautiful modern classic.
Realstically, even this won't make much difference because the design is so regulated and optimised that all designs look the same ultimately. A wheel at each corner, small glasshouse in the middle, engine at the back with a wing. Crash, line of sight, pedestrian impact, kerb/speeddump clearance, H point, w/wiper & demist perf, and yes, CO2 and emissions all drive us to the current, very mature (and very good) solution in terms of design. To go back to genuinly new design, we need to have cars that once again are dangerous, uncomfortable to drive, have poor economy, and dont' really work as cars.....



av185

11,260 posts

82 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
jhoneyball said:
Well that stirred up the comments :-)

I agree older supercars are very involving. my contention was/is that new supercars are so intergalactically good that you cannot get anywhere near their limits of accelleration or cornering etc.
But we all know it is nothing to with 0-60 0-100 or even 0-200 mph times as these are largely irrelevant in real world driving proved by perhaps the greatest irrelevance of all except than for pub bragging rights this being launch control, largely a sales driven feature which once more demands virtually zero driving skill and any 12 year old could almost do with their eyes shut.

No, in contrast, it is the intermediate at speed acceleration times which are so useful e.g. on the right road say between the bends which would define a truly rapid car or bike in any given circumstance and in this situation it would be perfectly possible to use maximum acceleration up to a given speed although again this would undoubtedly be more accessible to the supercar/rapid car driver than the bike rider particularly in less favourable road conditions due to adverse weather.

SidewaysSi

7,357 posts

189 months

Monday 18th May
quotequote all
This was the previous McLaren thread re. Working for them:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

sisu

653 posts

128 months

Tuesday 19th May
quotequote all
Wow you read the staff accounts and the turnover is worse than a Gordon Ramsey restaurant.
Building cars in the car park, reusing old parts on new cars like people did in the 70s.
Even if they get thru the next 6 months they have the B word to deal with.


smithyithy

4,821 posts

73 months

Tuesday 19th May
quotequote all
My sister works for a company in the Midlands that produces interior trim, panels etc for most of the UK manufacturers...

Even she says McLaren are the worst to deal with as a supplier, never paying invoices in time but always making demands.. generally a bit of a pain to deal with.

She says JLR aren't perfect but they're a fair bit better than McLaren to work with..

Pottyfield

7 posts

64 months

Wednesday 20th May
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well comments never cease to amaze me!. Especially from people who have done nothing more than watch youtube. Go and pretend you want to buy one drive it for a day and tell me its horrible...you won't all sports car (real ones) are exhilarating.

I am thinking of getting one - if everyone had the same taste we would all have Trabants. (Offered a car for the weekend and if i don't like ring a number they'll swap it for something else mid weekend).

Porsche, Audi R8, Ferrari, had them all over years but fancy a McLaren LT600 god forbid they have stopped making it! Even current R8 was bought from McLaren - no problems with them and even got better finance than 20 years at Oracle.

£100K off list for a 2,000 miler, some fun before I get too old to get in and out without a roly-poly, what's not to like?

And don't believe everything you read or hear - these people have to get their 10;30 to get youtubers commission. and have to upload cr4p every so many days to be relevant (god luck to them too I with I had thought of it I would have a garage full of cr4p supercars).

chill, its warm, the weekend comes....get out in your favourite metal and have a ball - speed vans are parked up in most places as non essential (unless you live in Bedfordshire).




Pottyfield

7 posts

64 months

Wednesday 20th May
quotequote all
Centurion07 said:
It's about the journey, not the destination.

You could also say "it's about the car, not the time you arrive".

You have two friends going to the same place both offering a lift. One in an Audi RS3 and one in a Ferrari. Which one are you choosing?

Driving a supercar is about so much more than the time it takes to get somewhere and if anything, being held up here and there by traffic makes those times when you DO get to open it up that little bit more special.
Well said! or get up at 4;30 am when the birds sing - you'll see no one! 2 hours blitz and back for breakfast.

JxJ Jr.

480 posts

25 months

Wednesday 20th May
quotequote all
Pottyfield said:
...if everyone had the same taste we would all have Trabants.
Err...no, that's not quite how the East German economy functioned.

JxJ Jr.

480 posts

25 months

Thursday 21st May
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Another hiccup for McLaren - FT reporting that existing bondholders say they already have claim over it's car collection so further funding can't be secured against it.

jhoneyball

1,539 posts

231 months

Thursday 21st May
quotequote all
JxJ Jr. said:
Another hiccup for McLaren - FT reporting that existing bondholders say they already have claim over it's car collection so further funding can't be secured against it.
ouch

ralphrj

2,982 posts

146 months

Thursday 21st May
quotequote all
FT said:
The documents for the carmaker’s 2017 bond deal value the company’s technology centre, production centre and its heritage cars at nearly £600m. The documents explicitly state that the debt would not be initially secured against the classic car collection, but suggest that these vintage vehicles — then valued at £170m — would be pledged to bondholders in future.
McLaren couldn't put the heritage collection up as security at the time of the bond issue as Ron Dennis had already put a charge on them. The bond issue was to raise funds to buy back Ron's shares in the company.

Roger Irrelevant

1,500 posts

68 months

Thursday 21st May
quotequote all
JxJ Jr. said:
Another hiccup for McLaren - FT reporting that existing bondholders say they already have claim over it's car collection so further funding can't be secured against it.
That's fairly basic stuff; I presume that McLaren's legal dept (or external advisers) weren't consulted before the company made a statement about potentially charging the historic collection, because if they were you'd very much hope they'd have put the brakes on. That sort of thing doesn't reflect brilliantly on how a company's run.