Why did people spec auto on performance cars?
Discussion
maz8062 said:
DoubleD said:
maz8062 said:
Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.
The good thing is we still have choice, which allows people with different opinions like many of us do, to buy and drive what they like.Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th June 16:50
My point is that manual boxes haven't come on much since I used to thrash an Austin Maestro (GTI
) around country lanes back in the day. In those days autos were just for easy driving, although kick down could be quite addictive.In terms of innovation for manual gearboxes I can only think of the Porsche 7 speed boxes or the 370z rev-matching trickery. Other than that manual boxes are the same as they've always been.
The other day I was watching an onboard of Senna driving a manual F1 car - it looked amazing - I think F1 are missing a trick with their super-fast auto boxes
A sorted manual is a joy to use. If you like that sort of thing of course. But if you can't be arsed or like to rest your left leg, just say so.
SidewaysSi said:
I would rather a manual than some auto with old tech.
A sorted manual is a joy to use. If you like that sort of thing of course. But if you can't be arsed or like to rest your left leg, just say so.
It’s so, so strange. Certain manuals actually define some cars, but we sniff at character? Sometime soon the world won’t have gearboxes or interesting engines and will be full of very linear, very efficient and very dull EV’s. Is there a reason why a good rev match is not liked, H&T into your favourite corners, sometimes goes well sometimes not, but that’s (to me) actually driving. A sorted manual is a joy to use. If you like that sort of thing of course. But if you can't be arsed or like to rest your left leg, just say so.
Hungrymc said:
otolith said:
Has it occurred to you that some of the people you're talking to have owned and driven both types of car and have a preference?
And some may prefer different gearboxes for different applications. it’s a broad spectrum from purely for fun through to purely for easy commuting. I think many will own several vehicles across this range.otolith said:
Hungrymc said:
otolith said:
Has it occurred to you that some of the people you're talking to have owned and driven both types of car and have a preference?
And some may prefer different gearboxes for different applications. it’s a broad spectrum from purely for fun through to purely for easy commuting. I think many will own several vehicles across this range.But it's interesting that the owner of an E46 M3 CSL had it converted to manual recently, although as the SMG was an old-school gearbox a manual was probably a huge improvement.
Which may be why SMG was never offered on the Z4M, thankfully!
otolith said:
The manual transmission on my Z4M is in some ways a bit of a pig - but while I’d gladly have it with a better manual, I still wouldn’t swap it for an automatic.
Iirc they never did an Z4M auto.? I actually liked the manual gearbox/chassis combination in the Z4MC wish I hadn't sold mine now,still have an E46 M3 which is Manual...
Gad-Westy said:
DickyC said:
av185 said:
Ah yes the innovative quartic steering wheel of the delightful BL Maestro.
With a gearbox to match.
VW box in the Maestro IIRCWith a gearbox to match.
OFF TOPIC BY SOME MARGIN
Maestro.The one I learned to drive in certainly had a round steering wheel! Gearbox wasn't bad either, nothing special but perfectly usable. Living in Newbury with a year long contract in Sheffield took its toll on cars. Twenty years ago this was. One Saturday I drove whatever I was using at the time to the local garage and asked for yet another fix. Soon after I had walked home the guvnor rang and said I should give up with it.
Knowing he had a row of old bangers in his yard, I said, "Okay, sell me something."
"I haven't got anything."
"Yes, you have."
"I don't have anything you'd want."
"It just has to be reliable."
"I've got a Maestro 1.6 Automatic."
"I'll buy it."
And I did. And it was brilliant. A bit bouncy but otherwise it was fine. Every Monday on my way to an 8 o'clock start in Sheffield I was passed on the A34 by an MG Maestro Turbo; three or four on board, going like the clappers. I was so chuffed with my accidental Maestro experience I put Maestro Turbo on my Wants List. Never bought one though. Maybe I'll just put it back n the list.
kambites said:
Gad-Westy said:
DickyC said:
av185 said:
Maestro.
Maestro.Knowing he had a row of old bangers in his yard, I said, "Okay, sell me something."
"I haven't got anything."
"Yes, you have."
"I don't have anything you'd want."
"It just has to be reliable."
"I've got a Maestro 1.6 Automatic."
"I'll buy it."
And I did. And it was brilliant. A bit bouncy but otherwise it was fine. Every Monday on my way to an 8 o'clock start in Sheffield I was passed on the A34 by an MG Maestro Turbo; three or four on board, going like the clappers. I was so chuffed with my accidental Maestro experience I put Maestro Turbo on my Wants List. Never bought one though. Maybe I'll just put it back n the list.
CRA1G said:
otolith said:
The manual transmission on my Z4M is in some ways a bit of a pig - but while I’d gladly have it with a better manual, I still wouldn’t swap it for an automatic.
Iirc they never did an Z4M auto.? I actually liked the manual gearbox/chassis combination in the Z4MC wish I hadn't sold mine now,still have an E46 M3 which is Manual...av185 said:
maz8062 said:
This is an interesting discussion. For my part, I don't understand the nostalgia that surrounds manual boxes - why? I blame the journalists - them again - they test-drive a Porsche GT3 PDK (cost £158k) and pine for a manual. The car would be so good with a manual - double-declutching, heel and toe, short-shifting - blah, blah, blah. No, it won't.
Back in the day cars came standard with a manual box and 3 pedals - you would have to pay extra for an auto. Since then manufactures have spent $billions on R&D on auto boxes, with the net result that we now have DCT boxes with launch control, 9 gears, manual mode, etc. How much r&d has been spent on manual gearboxes? Ok, Porsche has spent a bit on 7-speed gearboxes, but that's about it. Funny thing is though, you can get a manual box for the same price as an automatic because that's what you want, apparently.
This is a marketing team's dream; get people to opt for manuals, charge the same as an auto and make shed loads of profit.
Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.
This debate is like people demanding a return of the old Motorolla flip phones instead of the current crop of smartphones - because there was no social media, internet etc. Who needs progress when we can wallow in nostalgia
You clearly haven't owned or driven a 991.2 GT3. For road use the manual is no slower.Back in the day cars came standard with a manual box and 3 pedals - you would have to pay extra for an auto. Since then manufactures have spent $billions on R&D on auto boxes, with the net result that we now have DCT boxes with launch control, 9 gears, manual mode, etc. How much r&d has been spent on manual gearboxes? Ok, Porsche has spent a bit on 7-speed gearboxes, but that's about it. Funny thing is though, you can get a manual box for the same price as an automatic because that's what you want, apparently.
This is a marketing team's dream; get people to opt for manuals, charge the same as an auto and make shed loads of profit.
Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.
This debate is like people demanding a return of the old Motorolla flip phones instead of the current crop of smartphones - because there was no social media, internet etc. Who needs progress when we can wallow in nostalgia
Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th June 16:50
The difference in cost to Porsche between a manual and PDK S in negligible. The manual is 6 not 7 speed and around 33% of gen 2 GT3s are manual including 43 UK GT3 Tourings.
Porsche manuals are lauded as the best in the business, but few of the journalist highlights the ridiculous gearing of the GT models. A GT4 for example, will see the driver at the speed limit at the top of 2nd, what about 3rd, 4th, 5th? Great box but it can't be used to its potential on public roads. If the gearing is that long, what is the point of it over a PDK for the public roads?
Funny that Porsche will shortly be offering the GT4 and Spyder models with a PDK box in the US. Again, I wonder why.
maz8062 said:
av185 said:
maz8062 said:
This is an interesting discussion. For my part, I don't understand the nostalgia that surrounds manual boxes - why? I blame the journalists - them again - they test-drive a Porsche GT3 PDK (cost £158k) and pine for a manual. The car would be so good with a manual - double-declutching, heel and toe, short-shifting - blah, blah, blah. No, it won't.
Back in the day cars came standard with a manual box and 3 pedals - you would have to pay extra for an auto. Since then manufactures have spent $billions on R&D on auto boxes, with the net result that we now have DCT boxes with launch control, 9 gears, manual mode, etc. How much r&d has been spent on manual gearboxes? Ok, Porsche has spent a bit on 7-speed gearboxes, but that's about it. Funny thing is though, you can get a manual box for the same price as an automatic because that's what you want, apparently.
This is a marketing team's dream; get people to opt for manuals, charge the same as an auto and make shed loads of profit.
Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.
This debate is like people demanding a return of the old Motorolla flip phones instead of the current crop of smartphones - because there was no social media, internet etc. Who needs progress when we can wallow in nostalgia
You clearly haven't owned or driven a 991.2 GT3. For road use the manual is no slower.Back in the day cars came standard with a manual box and 3 pedals - you would have to pay extra for an auto. Since then manufactures have spent $billions on R&D on auto boxes, with the net result that we now have DCT boxes with launch control, 9 gears, manual mode, etc. How much r&d has been spent on manual gearboxes? Ok, Porsche has spent a bit on 7-speed gearboxes, but that's about it. Funny thing is though, you can get a manual box for the same price as an automatic because that's what you want, apparently.
This is a marketing team's dream; get people to opt for manuals, charge the same as an auto and make shed loads of profit.
Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.
This debate is like people demanding a return of the old Motorolla flip phones instead of the current crop of smartphones - because there was no social media, internet etc. Who needs progress when we can wallow in nostalgia
Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th June 16:50
The difference in cost to Porsche between a manual and PDK S in negligible. The manual is 6 not 7 speed and around 33% of gen 2 GT3s are manual including 43 UK GT3 Tourings.
Porsche manuals are lauded as the best in the business, but few of the journalist highlights the ridiculous gearing of the GT models. A GT4 for example, will see the driver at the speed limit at the top of 2nd, what about 3rd, 4th, 5th? Great box but it can't be used to its potential on public roads. If the gearing is that long, what is the point of it over a PDK for the public roads?
Funny that Porsche will shortly be offering the GT4 and Spyder models with a PDK box in the US. Again, I wonder why.
Plenty of road reviews on both cars if you care to do some research. The GT4 also won ECOTY car of the year which is quite telling and this was based on road use only.
Sounds like you've been reading too many negative reports and drivel spouted by non owners across the usual forums lol.
Go and drive a GT3 and GT4 get some experience of both cars then report back. The GT4 whilst clearly no GT3 is not perfect is nevertheless a great road car at the money.
Porsche are introducing the PDK into the GT4 and Spyder alongside the manual in the UK later this year for no other reason than some buyers prefer PDK. Your suggestion they are offering PDK because there is a problem with overgearing on the manual is frankly laughable and merely proves your clear confusion and misunderstandings of the Porsche GT market.
Leon R said:
I read the very Evo article you are referring to and you are correct the GT4 did win for 2019, I assume you read it too so you must have also read the bit where they mentioned that a negative of the car was the tall gearing.
Yes but I was referring to the 981 GT4 which along with the 718 also won Ecoty a few years back. The 981 and 718 gearboxes are the same though.Folks using the old chestnut argument that just because a certain car can exceed the speed limit in a given gear holds no water whatsover given most cars top speed can exceed the limit anyway. As we all know its all about the cars involvement at ANY speed through the right amount of driver feedback which some cars offer in spades others do not irrespective of their price whether we are talking mainstream or expensive.
This question has been going for years, but surely it must be down to personal choice, and this in turn, must be based on personal needs / circumstances.
If I did 70 - 80 % of my driving in town traffic, (where, it lets face it, it matters little what type of box is installed, because you cannot really drive the car to its best potential anyway) then probably I would go with an auto.
I think we have come a long way from the stodgy (only) 3 speed slush boxes by now, which everyone will probably agree were bit naff. (It was the sitting there with the engine revving away) before the vehicle decided it was going to move off bit, that always put me off the earlier auto boxes.
When a car has a manual gearbox which is pleasure to use, then a manual box can be a pain in heavy traffic, but can also become an element of the car which increases the drivers involvement with it.
In the past I often thought why buy a really nice drivers car, and then let a robot / machine drive it for you, but some of the latest multi speed autos really do improve some cars.
If I did 70 - 80 % of my driving in town traffic, (where, it lets face it, it matters little what type of box is installed, because you cannot really drive the car to its best potential anyway) then probably I would go with an auto.
I think we have come a long way from the stodgy (only) 3 speed slush boxes by now, which everyone will probably agree were bit naff. (It was the sitting there with the engine revving away) before the vehicle decided it was going to move off bit, that always put me off the earlier auto boxes.
When a car has a manual gearbox which is pleasure to use, then a manual box can be a pain in heavy traffic, but can also become an element of the car which increases the drivers involvement with it.
In the past I often thought why buy a really nice drivers car, and then let a robot / machine drive it for you, but some of the latest multi speed autos really do improve some cars.
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Tuesday 30th June 12:12
av185 said:
Leon R said:
I read the very Evo article you are referring to and you are correct the GT4 did win for 2019, I assume you read it too so you must have also read the bit where they mentioned that a negative of the car was the tall gearing.
Yes but I was referring to the 981 GT4 which along with the 718 also won Ecoty a few years back. The 981 and 718 gearboxes are the same though.Folks using the old chestnut argument that just because a certain car can exceed the speed limit in a given gear holds no water whatsover given most cars top speed can exceed the limit anyway. As we all know its all about the cars involvement at ANY speed through the right amount of driver feedback which some cars offer in spades others do not irrespective of their price whether we are talking mainstream or expensive.
Take the 718 GT4 for example, peak power arrives at 7600 and peak torque between 5-6.8k. This is a revvy engine, which needs revs to exploit. If one is rowing through the gears on public roads and operating within the law, you'd hardly be approaching peak torque numbers in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. So why spec it over a PDK for road use? Ok, the PDK is not available at the moment so we can't compare them but you get my gist.
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
As as a manual task, Auto boxes make going very fast, or more slowly, less taxing.
In areas where this is a primary importance, two pedal cars are more suitable.
This includes racing cars, shopping cars, commuters etc.
The widespread adoption of auto goes to show how the masses have wanted driving to be easier.
This is expected and easy to understand.
Where the car industry has done well, is playing 0-60 times and auto optimised mpg tests, to show auto is not only less taxing, but also actually ‘better’
In this way it became justifiable for the armchair / pub ‘enthusiast’ to adopt, without having effect their self (mistaken) worth
(Or any of us that require these attributes for a myriad of reasons)
This helped overcome the prejudice and bill the customer for an auto, which was the aim.
The modern two pedal car is also better than (pure estimate based on my experience) 90% of drivers.
So post purchase, 90% (as above) are very content with their new found enhanced levels of comfort and progress.
Manual requires more cognitive and physical activity.
If one takes to driving for pleasure, just making it easy isn’t the goal.
Driving enthusiasts actually want this level of greater, harder to perfect workload, as it forms part of a wider automotive hobby.
In the well taught/practiced hands, a three pedal car is way smoother and better controlled than a two pedal version of any sort.
Not faster against the clock from standstill, but that’s not the issue.
Automatic cookie-cutter present modes and settings, on hobbyist devices will always frustrate those enjoying the pastime as a hobby, not just a necessary task.
They don’t want or need to save the effort or time, to perfect a combination of manually dexterous tasks.
Non perfect examples.....
This is the important part for me though......
If this were black and white, we would have everyone driving vehicles at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Enthusiast = Only car is Caterfield / Atom.
Everyone else = Merc S-Class or similar.
We are all non binary in this regard though, to the extent some dyed in the wool enthusiasts drive automatics all the time, but some people own caterfirelds with no weather gear and cover 2000miles in a decade of ownership.
We’re all on the spectrum, to the extent that some people own a range of vehicles of very specific types, to suit everything from pure sunny day fun bees in the teeth motoring, to dire forced functionality of a wet, dark winter airport drop off at peak time.
We all do what we WANT, which is not always the most suitable
I thing a lot of the problem arises in these threads, when people type..
“Xxxx is best because ‘reasons’
I just can’t understand why anyone would.....
Blah blah starter handle, blah blah manual choke, x-ply, manual coke.........”
I’ve tried to add this, in a way that shouldn’t upset anyone, regardless of their own thought process.
How did I do?
In areas where this is a primary importance, two pedal cars are more suitable.
This includes racing cars, shopping cars, commuters etc.
The widespread adoption of auto goes to show how the masses have wanted driving to be easier.
This is expected and easy to understand.
Where the car industry has done well, is playing 0-60 times and auto optimised mpg tests, to show auto is not only less taxing, but also actually ‘better’
In this way it became justifiable for the armchair / pub ‘enthusiast’ to adopt, without having effect their self (mistaken) worth
(Or any of us that require these attributes for a myriad of reasons)
This helped overcome the prejudice and bill the customer for an auto, which was the aim.
The modern two pedal car is also better than (pure estimate based on my experience) 90% of drivers.
So post purchase, 90% (as above) are very content with their new found enhanced levels of comfort and progress.
Manual requires more cognitive and physical activity.
If one takes to driving for pleasure, just making it easy isn’t the goal.
Driving enthusiasts actually want this level of greater, harder to perfect workload, as it forms part of a wider automotive hobby.
In the well taught/practiced hands, a three pedal car is way smoother and better controlled than a two pedal version of any sort.
Not faster against the clock from standstill, but that’s not the issue.
Automatic cookie-cutter present modes and settings, on hobbyist devices will always frustrate those enjoying the pastime as a hobby, not just a necessary task.
They don’t want or need to save the effort or time, to perfect a combination of manually dexterous tasks.
Non perfect examples.....
- Photographers need finite control and use manual settings, which after years of practice, can separate them from a normal camera user results.
- Pilots that fly their own planes for fun, don’t want any of the interesting variable elements removed from their control. They can do a better job of landing than the computers can.
- Hunters might use a bow and arrow, which takes time to master and deploy successfully. They don’t want to use a gun, as that is target practice with living, not paper targets.
- Fishermen know there are foolproof ways to get lots of fish out of the water in minutes. They spend decades of their lives doing it the harder way to master, for their own enjoyment.
This is the important part for me though......
If this were black and white, we would have everyone driving vehicles at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Enthusiast = Only car is Caterfield / Atom.
Everyone else = Merc S-Class or similar.
We are all non binary in this regard though, to the extent some dyed in the wool enthusiasts drive automatics all the time, but some people own caterfirelds with no weather gear and cover 2000miles in a decade of ownership.
We’re all on the spectrum, to the extent that some people own a range of vehicles of very specific types, to suit everything from pure sunny day fun bees in the teeth motoring, to dire forced functionality of a wet, dark winter airport drop off at peak time.
We all do what we WANT, which is not always the most suitable
I thing a lot of the problem arises in these threads, when people type..
“Xxxx is best because ‘reasons’
I just can’t understand why anyone would.....
Blah blah starter handle, blah blah manual choke, x-ply, manual coke.........”
I’ve tried to add this, in a way that shouldn’t upset anyone, regardless of their own thought process.
How did I do?
maz8062 said:
Without wanting to hijack the thread, the title of which is why spec auto over manual, I'd argue that when it comes to some of these Porsche manuals, especially in the GT3/GT4/Spyder models, and for public road use, a PDK would be a better option or a shorter final drive ratio.
Take the 718 GT4 for example, peak power arrives at 7600 and peak torque between 5-6.8k. This is a revvy engine, which needs revs to exploit. If one is rowing through the gears on public roads and operating within the law, you'd hardly be approaching peak torque numbers in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. So why spec it over a PDK for road use? Ok, the PDK is not available at the moment so we can't compare them but you get my gist.
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
That is a good example of why I think that the DCT suits the E92 M3 much better than the manual I had in mine too. It does go against my love of 3 pedals, but I feel that you will probably get more enjoyment from the DCT because it makes better use of the engines characteristics. Take the 718 GT4 for example, peak power arrives at 7600 and peak torque between 5-6.8k. This is a revvy engine, which needs revs to exploit. If one is rowing through the gears on public roads and operating within the law, you'd hardly be approaching peak torque numbers in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. So why spec it over a PDK for road use? Ok, the PDK is not available at the moment so we can't compare them but you get my gist.
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
In saying that though it was great fun to change gear from third at 8400rpm at 110mph...and then into fourth gear with the 3 pedal manual.
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