Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

Author
Discussion

Red 5

651 posts

135 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
As as a manual task, Auto boxes make going very fast, or more slowly, less taxing.
In areas where this is a primary importance, two pedal cars are more suitable.
This includes racing cars, shopping cars, commuters etc.
The widespread adoption of auto goes to show how the masses have wanted driving to be easier.
This is expected and easy to understand.

Where the car industry has done well, is playing 0-60 times and auto optimised mpg tests, to show auto is not only less taxing, but also actually ‘better’
In this way it became justifiable for the armchair / pub ‘enthusiast’ to adopt, without having effect their self (mistaken) worth
(Or any of us that require these attributes for a myriad of reasons)

This helped overcome the prejudice and bill the customer for an auto, which was the aim.
The modern two pedal car is also better than (pure estimate based on my experience) 90% of drivers.
So post purchase, 90% (as above) are very content with their new found enhanced levels of comfort and progress.




Manual requires more cognitive and physical activity.
If one takes to driving for pleasure, just making it easy isn’t the goal.

Driving enthusiasts actually want this level of greater, harder to perfect workload, as it forms part of a wider automotive hobby.

In the well taught/practiced hands, a three pedal car is way smoother and better controlled than a two pedal version of any sort.
Not faster against the clock from standstill, but that’s not the issue.


Automatic cookie-cutter present modes and settings, on hobbyist devices will always frustrate those enjoying the pastime as a hobby, not just a necessary task.
They don’t want or need to save the effort or time, to perfect a combination of manually dexterous tasks.

Non perfect examples.....
  • Photographers need finite control and use manual settings, which after years of practice, can separate them from a normal camera user results.
  • Pilots that fly their own planes for fun, don’t want any of the interesting variable elements removed from their control. They can do a better job of landing than the computers can.
  • Hunters might use a bow and arrow, which takes time to master and deploy successfully. They don’t want to use a gun, as that is target practice with living, not paper targets.
  • Fishermen know there are foolproof ways to get lots of fish out of the water in minutes. They spend decades of their lives doing it the harder way to master, for their own enjoyment.

This is the important part for me though......
If this were black and white, we would have everyone driving vehicles at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Enthusiast = Only car is Caterfield / Atom.
Everyone else = Merc S-Class or similar.

We are all non binary in this regard though, to the extent some dyed in the wool enthusiasts drive automatics all the time, but some people own caterfirelds with no weather gear and cover 2000miles in a decade of ownership.

We’re all on the spectrum, to the extent that some people own a range of vehicles of very specific types, to suit everything from pure sunny day fun bees in the teeth motoring, to dire forced functionality of a wet, dark winter airport drop off at peak time.

We all do what we WANT, which is not always the most suitable smile



I thing a lot of the problem arises in these threads, when people type..

“Xxxx is best because ‘reasons’
I just can’t understand why anyone would.....
Blah blah starter handle, blah blah manual choke, x-ply, manual coke.........”



I’ve tried to add this, in a way that shouldn’t upset anyone, regardless of their own thought process.
How did I do?


cerb4.5lee

15,238 posts

135 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
Without wanting to hijack the thread, the title of which is why spec auto over manual, I'd argue that when it comes to some of these Porsche manuals, especially in the GT3/GT4/Spyder models, and for public road use, a PDK would be a better option or a shorter final drive ratio.

Take the 718 GT4 for example, peak power arrives at 7600 and peak torque between 5-6.8k. This is a revvy engine, which needs revs to exploit. If one is rowing through the gears on public roads and operating within the law, you'd hardly be approaching peak torque numbers in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. So why spec it over a PDK for road use? Ok, the PDK is not available at the moment so we can't compare them but you get my gist.

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
That is a good example of why I think that the DCT suits the E92 M3 much better than the manual I had in mine too. It does go against my love of 3 pedals, but I feel that you will probably get more enjoyment from the DCT because it makes better use of the engines characteristics.

In saying that though it was great fun to change gear from third at 8400rpm at 110mph...and then into fourth gear with the 3 pedal manual. driving

av185

11,260 posts

82 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.

nickfrog

12,024 posts

172 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Red 5 said:
Driving enthusiasts actually want this level of greater, harder to perfect workload, as it forms part of a wider automotive hobby.
Compared to the skills needed in perfecting braking, throttle control or steering, changing gears is easy, including H&T.

For some, a manual adds to the workload and they like that, I am one of them. For others, changing gears manually is a distraction from the other more crucial and harder to perfect inputs, I have met a few, particularly on track days.

av185

11,260 posts

82 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
av185 said:
Leon R said:
I read the very Evo article you are referring to and you are correct the GT4 did win for 2019, I assume you read it too so you must have also read the bit where they mentioned that a negative of the car was the tall gearing.
Yes but I was referring to the 981 GT4 which along with the 718 also won Ecoty a few years back. The 981 and 718 gearboxes are the same though.

Folks using the old chestnut argument that just because a certain car can exceed the speed limit in a given gear holds no water whatsover given most cars top speed can exceed the limit anyway. As we all know its all about the cars involvement at ANY speed through the right amount of driver feedback which some cars offer in spades others do not irrespective of their price whether we are talking mainstream or expensive.
Without wanting to hijack the thread, the title of which is why spec auto over manual, I'd argue that when it comes to some of these Porsche manuals, especially in the GT3/GT4/Spyder models, and for public road use, a PDK would be a better option or a shorter final drive ratio.

Take the 718 GT4 for example, peak power arrives at 7600 and peak torque between 5-6.8k. This is a revvy engine, which needs revs to exploit. If one is rowing through the gears on public roads and operating within the law, you'd hardly be approaching peak torque numbers in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. So why spec it over a PDK for road use? Ok, the PDK is not available at the moment so we can't compare them but you get my gist.

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
You do realise that peak power and torque arrive within the same rev range irrespective of whether the car is manual or PDK.

Red 5

651 posts

135 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
av185 said:
maz8062 said:
av185 said:
Leon R said:
I read the very Evo article you are referring to and you are correct the GT4 did win for 2019, I assume you read it too so you must have also read the bit where they mentioned that a negative of the car was the tall gearing.
Yes but I was referring to the 981 GT4 which along with the 718 also won Ecoty a few years back. The 981 and 718 gearboxes are the same though.

Folks using the old chestnut argument that just because a certain car can exceed the speed limit in a given gear holds no water whatsover given most cars top speed can exceed the limit anyway. As we all know its all about the cars involvement at ANY speed through the right amount of driver feedback which some cars offer in spades others do not irrespective of their price whether we are talking mainstream or expensive.
Without wanting to hijack the thread, the title of which is why spec auto over manual, I'd argue that when it comes to some of these Porsche manuals, especially in the GT3/GT4/Spyder models, and for public road use, a PDK would be a better option or a shorter final drive ratio.

Take the 718 GT4 for example, peak power arrives at 7600 and peak torque between 5-6.8k. This is a revvy engine, which needs revs to exploit. If one is rowing through the gears on public roads and operating within the law, you'd hardly be approaching peak torque numbers in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. So why spec it over a PDK for road use? Ok, the PDK is not available at the moment so we can't compare them but you get my gist.

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
You do realise that peak power and torque arrive within the same rev range irrespective of whether the car is manual or PDK.
But not at the same speeds, which is what he’s talking about with the differing gear ratios of man vs PDK boxes. It’s only a slight difference though, so not a deal breaker for me.

Olivera

3,946 posts

194 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
nickfrog said:
Compared to the skills needed in perfecting braking, throttle control or steering, changing gears is easy, including H&T.
H&T combines changing gear with using just the right amount of brake and throttle, so by definition to do it perfectly *does* take quite a bit of skill.

Red 5

651 posts

135 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
nickfrog said:
Compared to the skills needed in perfecting braking, throttle control or steering, changing gears is easy, including H&T.

For some, a manual adds to the workload and they like that, I am one of them. For others, changing gears manually is a distraction from the other more crucial and harder to perfect inputs, I have met a few, particularly on track days.
Hi Mr Frog smile

I do agree, regarding the tasks taken separately and am aware that you have more experience in these matters. These few people on track have (or say they have) speed as their primary goal I guess?

I like the way the changing gear bit is part of the other more challenging elements.
Braking, throttle and steering are all more challenging and involving to learn to perfection, when the gear change has to be factored into them perfectly too smile

I think they would admit this, if fun was more important to them than than lap times. Do you think that’s the case?

This at all driving speeds forms the basis of my satisfaction at getting it right while driving for me smile



DoubleD

12,721 posts

63 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
av185 said:
maz8062 said:
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.
All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?

ddom

1,007 posts

3 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Olivera said:
H&T combines changing gear with using just the right amount of brake and throttle, so by definition to do it perfectly *does* take quite a bit of skill.
Yes, adds to the fun, just like left foot braking which in most modern cars isn't possible anyway. When the daily car is at the airport for long periods of time I obviously never leave the handbrake on and any surface rust is a quickly scrubbed off with some left foot braking on the way to the exit. It was the same when I made the mistake of really hard pads, found it was a good way of getting some feel in them very quickly and not having any 'oh st' moments biggrin


nickfrog

12,024 posts

172 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Red 5 said:
Hi Mr Frog smile

I do agree, regarding the tasks taken separately and am aware that you have more experience in these matters. These few people on track have (or say they have) speed as their primary goal I guess?
Hiya, hope you're well. I just put 2 and 2 together...

Sometimes they do have speed as a priority but not always.

Oliveira makes a good point though as there is an element of contradiction in my views laugh

Red 5

651 posts

135 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
nickfrog said:
Red 5 said:
Hi Mr Frog smile

I do agree, regarding the tasks taken separately and am aware that you have more experience in these matters. These few people on track have (or say they have) speed as their primary goal I guess?
Hiya, hope you're well. I just put 2 and 2 together...

Sometimes they do have speed as a priority but not always.

Oliveira makes a good point though as there is an element of contradiction in my views laugh
laugh
We’re (Semerka and I) well thanks enjoying my last day of lockdown smile

I realised the contradiction of which he speaks, but then we all do that I guess smile







av185

11,260 posts

82 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
av185 said:
maz8062 said:
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.
All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?
Quite.

Hes talking bks.

Leon R

662 posts

51 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
av185 said:
maz8062 said:
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.
All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?
2019 they were in Spain and used the Ascari track.

av185

11,260 posts

82 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
The whole point of Ecoty is to provide their verdict on what they consider to be the best production DRIVERS car, irrespective of cost. Thats why it is often the case that the inexpensive car wins as was the case with both GT4s despite far more expensive vehicles such as a Mclaren and Aventador being in the test.

maz8062

705 posts

170 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
av185 said:
DoubleD said:
av185 said:
maz8062 said:
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.
All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?
Quite.

Hes talking bks.
Not quite wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_7piye1Who&t=...


DoubleD

12,721 posts

63 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
av185 said:
DoubleD said:
av185 said:
maz8062 said:
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.
All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?
Quite.

Hes talking bks.
Not quite wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_7piye1Who&t=...
So 5 days on Spanish roads and a track? How is that largely useless?

maz8062

705 posts

170 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
av185 said:
The whole point of Ecoty is to provide their verdict on what they consider to be the best production DRIVERS car, irrespective of cost. Thats why it is often the case that the inexpensive car wins as was the case with both GT4s despite far more expensive vehicles such as a Mclaren and Aventador being in the test.
And then award it to a Porsche. Porsche have won that award more than any other car manufacturer. It could be that they're the best, or..

https://www.evo.co.uk/features/202457/evo-car-of-t...



Edited by maz8062 on Tuesday 30th June 14:51

av185

11,260 posts

82 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
av185 said:
DoubleD said:
av185 said:
maz8062 said:
These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads
The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.
All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?
Quite.

Hes talking bks.
Not quite wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_7piye1Who&t=...
Interesting that 2015 Ecoty which was undertaken entirely on Scotlands finest driving roads and no tracks nominated the 981 GT4 as winner above the GT3 RS (PDK S) largely because of the driver interaction of its manual gearbox and performance accessibility for public road use above an array of other fine and far more expensive cars including an Aventador and Mc LT on the test.

I have owned both a GT4 and Spyder from new and have run these simultanously alongside other interesting and rapid cars including a 458 IT, Mclaren 570S , 991.2 GT2 RS, 991.2 GT3 and 991.1 Turbo S and can assure you whilst the GT4 is far from perfect and not the fastest road car on the planet by a good margin it is nevertheless a great package at the money with a great gearbox and is possibly the sweetspot as a road car for UK B road performance.

cerb4.5lee

15,238 posts

135 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
And then award it to a Porsche. Porsche have won that award more than any other car manufacturer. It could be that they're the best, or..

https://www.evo.co.uk/features/202457/evo-car-of-t...
I've often thought that EVO magazine should change their name to Porsche monthly instead! hehe