Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

[av185]

maz8062 said:

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads

The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.

[nickfrog]

Red 5 said:

Driving enthusiasts actually want this level of greater, harder to perfect workload, as it forms part of a wider automotive hobby.

Compared to the skills needed in perfecting braking, throttle control or steering, changing gears is easy, including H&T.

For some, a manual adds to the workload and they like that, I am one of them. For others, changing gears manually is a distraction from the other more crucial and harder to perfect inputs, I have met a few, particularly on track days.

[av185]

maz8062 said:

av185 said:

Leon R said:

I read the very Evo article you are referring to and you are correct the GT4 did win for 2019, I assume you read it too so you must have also read the bit where they mentioned that a negative of the car was the tall gearing.

Yes but I was referring to the 981 GT4 which along with the 718 also won Ecoty a few years back. The 981 and 718 gearboxes are the same though.

Folks using the old chestnut argument that just because a certain car can exceed the speed limit in a given gear holds no water whatsover given most cars top speed can exceed the limit anyway. As we all know its all about the cars involvement at ANY speed through the right amount of driver feedback which some cars offer in spades others do not irrespective of their price whether we are talking mainstream or expensive.

Without wanting to hijack the thread, the title of which is why spec auto over manual, I'd argue that when it comes to some of these Porsche manuals, especially in the GT3/GT4/Spyder models, and for public road use, a PDK would be a better option or a shorter final drive ratio.

Take the 718 GT4 for example, peak power arrives at 7600 and peak torque between 5-6.8k. This is a revvy engine, which needs revs to exploit. If one is rowing through the gears on public roads and operating within the law, you'd hardly be approaching peak torque numbers in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. So why spec it over a PDK for road use? Ok, the PDK is not available at the moment so we can't compare them but you get my gist.

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads

You do realise that peak power and torque arrive within the same rev range irrespective of whether the car is manual or PDK.

[Red 5]

av185 said:

maz8062 said:

av185 said:

Leon R said:

I read the very Evo article you are referring to and you are correct the GT4 did win for 2019, I assume you read it too so you must have also read the bit where they mentioned that a negative of the car was the tall gearing.

Yes but I was referring to the 981 GT4 which along with the 718 also won Ecoty a few years back. The 981 and 718 gearboxes are the same though.

Folks using the old chestnut argument that just because a certain car can exceed the speed limit in a given gear holds no water whatsover given most cars top speed can exceed the limit anyway. As we all know its all about the cars involvement at ANY speed through the right amount of driver feedback which some cars offer in spades others do not irrespective of their price whether we are talking mainstream or expensive.

Without wanting to hijack the thread, the title of which is why spec auto over manual, I'd argue that when it comes to some of these Porsche manuals, especially in the GT3/GT4/Spyder models, and for public road use, a PDK would be a better option or a shorter final drive ratio.

Take the 718 GT4 for example, peak power arrives at 7600 and peak torque between 5-6.8k. This is a revvy engine, which needs revs to exploit. If one is rowing through the gears on public roads and operating within the law, you'd hardly be approaching peak torque numbers in 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. So why spec it over a PDK for road use? Ok, the PDK is not available at the moment so we can't compare them but you get my gist.

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads

You do realise that peak power and torque arrive within the same rev range irrespective of whether the car is manual or PDK.

But not at the same speeds, which is what he’s talking about with the differing gear ratios of man vs PDK boxes. It’s only a slight difference though, so not a deal breaker for me.

[Olivera]

nickfrog said:

Compared to the skills needed in perfecting braking, throttle control or steering, changing gears is easy, including H&T.

H&T combines changing gear with using just the right amount of brake and throttle, so by definition to do it perfectly *does* take quite a bit of skill.

[Red 5]

nickfrog said:

Compared to the skills needed in perfecting braking, throttle control or steering, changing gears is easy, including H&T.

For some, a manual adds to the workload and they like that, I am one of them. For others, changing gears manually is a distraction from the other more crucial and harder to perfect inputs, I have met a few, particularly on track days.

Hi Mr Frog

I do agree, regarding the tasks taken separately and am aware that you have more experience in these matters. These few people on track have (or say they have) speed as their primary goal I guess?

I like the way the changing gear bit is part of the other more challenging elements.
Braking, throttle and steering are all more challenging and involving to learn to perfection, when the gear change has to be factored into them perfectly too

I think they would admit this, if fun was more important to them than than lap times. Do you think that’s the case?

This at all driving speeds forms the basis of my satisfaction at getting it right while driving for me

[DoubleD]

av185 said:

maz8062 said:

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads

The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.

All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?

[ddom]

Olivera said:

H&T combines changing gear with using just the right amount of brake and throttle, so by definition to do it perfectly *does* take quite a bit of skill.

Yes, adds to the fun, just like left foot braking which in most modern cars isn't possible anyway. When the daily car is at the airport for long periods of time I obviously never leave the handbrake on and any surface rust is a quickly scrubbed off with some left foot braking on the way to the exit. It was the same when I made the mistake of really hard pads, found it was a good way of getting some feel in them very quickly and not having any 'oh st' moments

[nickfrog]

Red 5 said:

Hi Mr Frog

I do agree, regarding the tasks taken separately and am aware that you have more experience in these matters. These few people on track have (or say they have) speed as their primary goal I guess?

Hiya, hope you're well. I just put 2 and 2 together...

Sometimes they do have speed as a priority but not always.

Oliveira makes a good point though as there is an element of contradiction in my views

[Red 5]

nickfrog said:

Red 5 said:

Hi Mr Frog

I do agree, regarding the tasks taken separately and am aware that you have more experience in these matters. These few people on track have (or say they have) speed as their primary goal I guess?

Hiya, hope you're well. I just put 2 and 2 together...

Sometimes they do have speed as a priority but not always.

Oliveira makes a good point though as there is an element of contradiction in my views

We’re (Semerka and I) well thanks enjoying my last day of lockdown

I realised the contradiction of which he speaks, but then we all do that I guess

[av185]

DoubleD said:

av185 said:

maz8062 said:

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads

The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.

All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?

Quite.

Hes talking bks.

[Leon R]

DoubleD said:

av185 said:

maz8062 said:

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads

The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.

All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?

2019 they were in Spain and used the Ascari track.

[av185]

The whole point of Ecoty is to provide their verdict on what they consider to be the best production DRIVERS car, irrespective of cost. Thats why it is often the case that the inexpensive car wins as was the case with both GT4s despite far more expensive vehicles such as a Mclaren and Aventador being in the test.

[maz8062]

av185 said:

DoubleD said:

av185 said:

maz8062 said:

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads

The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.

All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?

Quite.

Hes talking bks.

Not quite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_7piye1Who&t=...

[DoubleD]

maz8062 said:

av185 said:

DoubleD said:

av185 said:

maz8062 said:

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads

The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.

All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?

Quite.

Hes talking bks.

Not quite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_7piye1Who&t=...

So 5 days on Spanish roads and a track? How is that largely useless?

[maz8062]

av185 said:

The whole point of Ecoty is to provide their verdict on what they consider to be the best production DRIVERS car, irrespective of cost. Thats why it is often the case that the inexpensive car wins as was the case with both GT4s despite far more expensive vehicles such as a Mclaren and Aventador being in the test.

And then award it to a Porsche. Porsche have won that award more than any other car manufacturer. It could be that they're the best, or..

https://www.evo.co.uk/features/202457/evo-car-of-t...

Edited by maz8062 on Tuesday 30th June 14:51

[av185]

maz8062 said:

av185 said:

DoubleD said:

av185 said:

maz8062 said:

These ECOTY and the other cars tests are largely useless when making comparisons for a car used primarily on the public roads

The whole point of Ecoty car tests is that they are conducted solely on public roads so are entirely relevant.

All the ECOTY tests that I have seen have been carried out on the road.

What is it that makes them largely useless?

Quite.

Hes talking bks.

Not quite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_7piye1Who&t=...

Interesting that 2015 Ecoty which was undertaken entirely on Scotlands finest driving roads and no tracks nominated the 981 GT4 as winner above the GT3 RS (PDK S) largely because of the driver interaction of its manual gearbox and performance accessibility for public road use above an array of other fine and far more expensive cars including an Aventador and Mc LT on the test.

I have owned both a GT4 and Spyder from new and have run these simultanously alongside other interesting and rapid cars including a 458 IT, Mclaren 570S , 991.2 GT2 RS, 991.2 GT3 and 991.1 Turbo S and can assure you whilst the GT4 is far from perfect and not the fastest road car on the planet by a good margin it is nevertheless a great package at the money with a great gearbox and is possibly the sweetspot as a road car for UK B road performance.

[cerb4.5lee]

maz8062 said:

And then award it to a Porsche. Porsche have won that award more than any other car manufacturer. It could be that they're the best, or..

https://www.evo.co.uk/features/202457/evo-car-of-t...

I've often thought that EVO magazine should change their name to Porsche monthly instead!

[SidewaysSi]

Or maybe, just maybe Porsches are actually pretty good?

The GT cars are largely some of the very few normal cars you can drive to a track, thrash all day and drive home without it falling apart.

[cerb4.5lee]

SidewaysSi said:

Or maybe, just maybe Porsches are actually pretty good?

The GT cars are largely some of the very few normal cars you can drive to a track, thrash all day and drive home without it falling apart.

I thought that you didn't like yours though!

I don't mind Porsche to be fair, it is just that ECOTY is always very predictable because of Porsche.