Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

Author
Discussion

SidewaysSi

7,357 posts

189 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Or maybe, just maybe Porsches are actually pretty good?

The GT cars are largely some of the very few normal cars you can drive to a track, thrash all day and drive home without it falling apart.

cerb4.5lee

15,238 posts

135 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
SidewaysSi said:
Or maybe, just maybe Porsches are actually pretty good?

The GT cars are largely some of the very few normal cars you can drive to a track, thrash all day and drive home without it falling apart.
I thought that you didn't like yours though! biggrin

I don't mind Porsche to be fair, it is just that ECOTY is always very predictable because of Porsche.

av185

11,260 posts

82 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
SidewaysSi said:
Or maybe, just maybe Porsches are actually pretty good?

The GT cars are largely some of the very few normal cars you can drive to a track, thrash all day and drive home without it falling apart.
I thought that you didn't like yours though! biggrin

I don't mind Porsche to be fair, it is just that ECOTY is always very predictable because of Porsche.
You including Autocar in that category too just because the GT3 won best drivers car in 2017?

SidewaysSi

7,357 posts

189 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
SidewaysSi said:
Or maybe, just maybe Porsches are actually pretty good?

The GT cars are largely some of the very few normal cars you can drive to a track, thrash all day and drive home without it falling apart.
I thought that you didn't like yours though! biggrin

I don't mind Porsche to be fair, it is just that ECOTY is always very predictable because of Porsche.
I only didn't like it because I like cars at the extreme end , however of someone wants a decent driver's car which can do it all, a Cayman GT4 isn't a bad old bus.

Of course I would much rather a 911 - something like a 996 GT3 with some Manthey goodies... smile

cerb4.5lee

15,238 posts

135 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
I wouldn't say no to either a Porsche GT3 or a GT4 for sure. coolthumbup

You never read a bad review of either to be fair. My only personal gripe is that I find that german cars lack a bit of soul. I've not driven a Porsche though so that is probably unfounded.

SidewaysSi

7,357 posts

189 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
I wouldn't say no to either a Porsche GT3 or a GT4 for sure. coolthumbup

You never read a bad review of either to be fair. My only personal gripe is that I find that german cars lack a bit of soul. I've not driven a Porsche though so that is probably unfounded.
Agree - some have extreme competence built in, GT cars included. Hence something modified and older should more than keep you happy... wink

xjay1337

15,047 posts

73 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
I thought that you didn't like yours though! biggrin

I don't mind Porsche to be fair, it is just that ECOTY is always very predictable because of Porsche.
Exactly - so boring. All helps keep Porsche's value stupidly high. It's OK though, because if you ever bought one with warranty but decided to fit non N Rated tyres to it, or a better battery, your warranty is invalid. Oops.

maz8062

705 posts

170 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I thought that you didn't like yours though! biggrin

I don't mind Porsche to be fair, it is just that ECOTY is always very predictable because of Porsche.
Exactly - so boring. All helps keep Porsche's value stupidly high. It's OK though, because if you ever bought one with warranty but decided to fit non N Rated tyres to it, or a better battery, your warranty is invalid. Oops.
yes

In that link that I posted a Porsche has won over 50% of ECOTY from 1998 to 2019. They're good but not that good, surely?

DoubleD

12,721 posts

63 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
xjay1337 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I thought that you didn't like yours though! biggrin

I don't mind Porsche to be fair, it is just that ECOTY is always very predictable because of Porsche.
Exactly - so boring. All helps keep Porsche's value stupidly high. It's OK though, because if you ever bought one with warranty but decided to fit non N Rated tyres to it, or a better battery, your warranty is invalid. Oops.
yes

In that link that I posted a Porsche has won over 50% of ECOTY from 1998 to 2019. They're good but not that good, surely?
So what should have won the years that the Porsche did?

rockin

7,971 posts

200 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Exactly - so boring. All helps keep Porsche's value stupidly high. It's OK though, because if you ever bought one with warranty but decided to fit non N Rated tyres to it, or a better battery, your warranty is invalid. Oops.
Sideways and Cerb4.5lee make a couple of sensible observations and then you turn up.

Would you like some vinegar with that chip?

xjay1337

15,047 posts

73 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
rockin said:
xjay1337 said:
Exactly - so boring. All helps keep Porsche's value stupidly high. It's OK though, because if you ever bought one with warranty but decided to fit non N Rated tyres to it, or a better battery, your warranty is invalid. Oops.
Sideways and Cerb4.5lee make a couple of sensible observations and then you turn up.

Would you like some vinegar with that chip?
Oh ps off. People can have different opinions to you.

Also my qualms with Porsche are valid I think - too many "nice" ones are owned by people who view them as investments not driving machines which means people like you and I can't ever realistically look to own one (but that's fine I'll just work harder - but what that's not enough as you can't get a new RS model without being a long standing Porsche customer or a celebrity!).
.
But mainly, I think some terms of their warranty are ridiculous. for example forcing you to fit specific tyres, brake pads or batteries (on an Enthusiast car surely tyres and brake pads are very specific to individual drivers)

But that's just me smile


thiscocks

2,244 posts

150 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
hungry_hog said:
Autos have improved so much. If we take Porsche, BMW as "volume" examples.

The tiptronic on 993, 996, 997.1 wasn't great. Same goes for the SMG of E46 / E60.

Once the 977.2 / e90 M3 generation of cars was released (around 10-12 years ago) they had improved enough that they became the default.

In addition, manufacturers are chasing Nurburgring lap times, partly for marketing purposes. There is no doubt a fast auto is quicker for circuits.

If you think about it:
modern day to day => auto
circuit => auto

So the only time a manual is appropriate is maybe a B road blast, but how many people get the chance to do that these days, with all the traffic and cameras.
Well, manual for track as well as no one cares about lap times on a track day. Its about enjoying yourself, not posting the quickest time. I can see possibly why you would want auto for city stuff but then youve bought the wrong car for the job anyway.

Pan Pan Pan

6,320 posts

66 months

Wednesday 1st July
quotequote all
I am sometimes amused by those who buy a car with automatic this, and computer controlled that, and heaven only knows how many other electronic driver aids, who still manage to believe that somehow `they' are a driving god, (when really it is just the car doing the driving) and without all the driver aids, they would just be mediocre drivers at best.

maz8062

705 posts

170 months

Wednesday 1st July
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
I am sometimes amused by those who buy a car with automatic this, and computer controlled that, and heaven only knows how many other electronic driver aids, who still manage to believe that somehow `they' are a driving god, (when really it is just the car doing the driving) and without all the driver aids, they would just be mediocre drivers at best.
Interesting take.

If the driver aids turn a mediocre driver into a driving god as you say, is their driving mediocre or God like? Would Lewis Hamilton's driving be God-like or mediocre without the driving aids on his F1 car?

It's a circular argument, but if the aids aid the driver in driving, its all part of the driving experience.

Pan Pan Pan

6,320 posts

66 months

Wednesday 1st July
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I am sometimes amused by those who buy a car with automatic this, and computer controlled that, and heaven only knows how many other electronic driver aids, who still manage to believe that somehow `they' are a driving god, (when really it is just the car doing the driving) and without all the driver aids, they would just be mediocre drivers at best.
Interesting take.

If the driver aids turn a mediocre driver into a driving god as you say, is their driving mediocre or God like? Would Lewis Hamilton's driving be God-like or mediocre without the driving aids on his F1 car?

It's a circular argument, but if the aids aid the driver in driving, its all part of the driving experience.
I guess it depends on what a driver is `experiencing' Is he experiencing the driving of his car, or is he just observing what the driver aids are doing, whilst, he is sitting at the (progressively weighted) steering wheel.

In the case of F1 driver aids are to be expected because all the teams here are doing their level best to beat the other cars, and that means using everything they can to increase speeds, things that are frankly beyond the capability of a human driver.
If they had formula one using cars which used no driver aids whatsoever, that would truly sort out the men, from the boys. At the moment it seems to be more a matter of which team is backed by the most cash, with cars backed up by the best computers.

DoubleD

12,721 posts

63 months

Wednesday 1st July
quotequote all
What driver aids do F1 cars have? They have things that they can adjust on the car, but they dont have things like abs or tc?

Pan Pan Pan

6,320 posts

66 months

Wednesday 1st July
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
What driver aids do F1 cars have? They have things that they can adjust on the car, but they dont have things like abs or tc?
How about computer controlled active suspension, Anti lock Brakes, Launch Control, continuously variable transmissions, computer controlled 4 wheel steering to name but a few?

av185

11,260 posts

82 months

Wednesday 1st July
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
I am sometimes amused by those who buy a car with automatic this, and computer controlled that, and heaven only knows how many other electronic driver aids, who still manage to believe that somehow `they' are a driving god, (when really it is just the car doing the driving) and without all the driver aids, they would just be mediocre drivers at best.
Yep its the way of the world unfortunately buyers like the easy and least challenging option for pub bragging rights and as previously posted many autos especially are now so easy to pilot at speed they can be driven by a 12 year old although some cars systems kick in alot earlier than others to flatter the driver and protect their ego, Ferrari and Lamborghini (exc Performante to a degree) in particular being prime examples.

Trouble is as we have seen on numerous occasions the laws of physics still apply and its ok having ssc as slide slip control on your 488 but when things let go they do so spectacularly and no amount of talent no matter how good invariably can prevent this.

Whilst manual transmission on a fast car is clearly a challenge and step too far which many don't like, try changing gear with one hand and appropriate clutch use so as not to upset the cars balance and simultaneously managing steering and braking input when the car is on its limit. Not easy.

Therein lies the challenge but so satisfying to get right when you do.

Edited by av185 on Wednesday 1st July 11:10


Edited by av185 on Wednesday 1st July 11:12

Pan Pan Pan

6,320 posts

66 months

Wednesday 1st July
quotequote all
av185 said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I am sometimes amused by those who buy a car with automatic this, and computer controlled that, and heaven only knows how many other electronic driver aids, who still manage to believe that somehow `they' are a driving god, (when really it is just the car doing the driving) and without all the driver aids, they would just be mediocre drivers at best.
Yep its the way of the world unfortunately buyers like the easy and least challenging option for pub bragging rights and as previously posted many autos especially are now so easy to pilot at speed they can be driven by a 12 year old although some cars systems kick in alot earlier than others to flatter the driver and protect their ego, Ferrari and Lamborghini (exc Performante to a degree) in particular being prime examples.

Trouble is as we have seen on numerous occasions the laws of physics still apply and its ok having ssc as slide slip control on your 488 but when things let go they do so spectacularly and no amount of talent no matter how good invariably can prevent this.

Whilst manual transmission on a fast car is clearly a challenge and step too far which many don't like, try changing gear with one hand and appropriate clutch use so as not to upset the cars balance and simultaneously managing steering and braking input when the car is on its limit. Not easy.

Therein lies the challenge but so satisfying to get right when you do.

Edited by av185 on Wednesday 1st July 11:10


Edited by av185 on Wednesday 1st July 11:12
I read an article in EVO a little while ago where they were grieving over the demise of what they saw as true drivers cars, in favour of what they saw as computers on wheels.
the article reminded me of a case in point, which happened last year.
I was at my sisters place, and we `lads' were having a little plink in the garden with our 200 quid iron sight spring guns, on some targets.
One of my brother in laws mates, turned up, and when he saw what we were doing he exclaimed Oh good! lets have a shooting competition!.
He then proceeded to take his five thousand quid, gas powered multi shot rifle with stand and counterweights out of its case, and fitted its f*ck off 75mm diameter scope on it. When he had finished setting it all up, I asked him, `whose gun would we be going to use for the shooting competition/- He said Err what?.
I replied, that we could all either use one of our spring guns, and offered him mine to use, or we could all use his expensive monster of a gas gun.
Suddenly he seemed to lose any enthusiasm for a shooting competition, especially as my brother in law, was already hitting the targets bulls eyes with his iron sight spring gun, time after time. smile

Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Wednesday 1st July 11:28

DoubleD

12,721 posts

63 months

Wednesday 1st July
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
DoubleD said:
What driver aids do F1 cars have? They have things that they can adjust on the car, but they dont have things like abs or tc?
How about computer controlled active suspension, Anti lock Brakes, Launch Control, continuously variable transmissions, computer controlled 4 wheel steering to name but a few?
They don't have any of those aids?