RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender

RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender

Author
Discussion

camel_landy

3,057 posts

138 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
...all the same old stuff he always says on any New Defender thread.
ZZZZZzzzzz.....

M

300bhp/ton

38,603 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
gt6 said:
Well that looks a big improvement on the standard defender, suspect it will be a strong seller. Not sure how they have done it but looks wise it seems to be closer to the original look.
Reckon a lot of you must be looking at different photos to me. Either that or your rose tinted specs are very hazy. tongue out

These look nothing like the traditional Defender.



Simply covering in the rear side windows will not make the one on the right resemble the one on the left wink

Argleton

3,695 posts

53 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
ZZZZZzzzzz....

M
Don't bother trying to reason with 300bhp/ton he'll bore you into submission before you give up the will to live.


camel_landy

3,057 posts

138 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Reckon a lot of you must be looking at different photos to me. Either that or your rose tinted specs are very hazy. tongue out

These look nothing like the traditional Defender.
Why do you ALWAYS have to spoil EVERY thread about the New Defender?

M

Max_Torque

15,176 posts

172 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
meh,mumble, mumble, no beam axles

meh,mumble, mumble, you can't hose the interior out

meh,mumble, mumble, it's not as good off road as the old one

meh,mumble, mumble, a jeep is better

meh,mumble, mumble, i don't like how it looks



Same old, same old 300. from someone who's never bought a new car in their life..................


IMO, JLR have nailed the compromise (and yes, it's a compromise) perfectly on this, on the styling, the balance between road and off-road performance, pretty much on everything. Even the cost looks reasonable on these down-spec'd models.........

camel_landy

3,057 posts

138 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Argleton said:
camel_landy said:
ZZZZZzzzzz....

M
Don't bother trying to reason with 300bhp/ton he'll bore you into submission before you give up the will to live.
It always reminds me of a Mark Twain quote:

Mark Twain said:
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
M

DonkeyApple

37,398 posts

124 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
DanielSan said:
I'll take mine in green please, 90 spec with the 3 seats so we can take the dog, and add the roof tent option. The perfect mountain bike weekend chariot.
That’s just what I was thinking. A company car that at the weekend can be used to transport sporting equipment or camping stuff with the kids up front.

Fittster

19,220 posts

168 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
drpep said:
The reality is, it's not as capable an off-roader, and the only real option on that front is the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon (front and rear lockers, solid front and rear axle), and maybe a Mercedes g-wagen albeit at a significant additional cost.
.
Why does the jeep appear to have such a poor towing ability?

DonkeyApple

37,398 posts

124 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Am I the only one not really getting the point of this one?

Do you really need to still be asking yourself that question about anything at your age? wink

The point is extremely obvious to anyone who doesn’t live in the previous century and think people still buy off-road cars so as to drive up the Rift Valley to bag some uppity locals heavily armed with over ripe fruit.

More bafflingly is that you live in the main part of the UK outside of London where we will see huge numbersbof these being used by local businesses.

300bhp/ton

38,603 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Mr.Jimbo said:
Why isn't it as good off road? Genuinely interested - unless you're rock crawling in Utah I think 95% of people would get a lot further in a new Defender than a Jeep Rubicon due to the terrain response and the car doing the diff locking/wheel braking for you. It has locking centre/rear and a brake modulated front open diff.

That aside, apart from approach angle, the Defender beats the Rubicon for departure angle and break over too.

For a very skilled off road driver I can see a manual-everything car like the Rubicon or an old Defender modded to have diff locks etc would probably go further, but realistically that's a very small % of people. The best bit about the Rubicon is it comes on proper tyres - better than the Wranglers offered on the Defender I'd wager but I bet a whole lot worse in road manners, which I imagine the Defender is compromised on between peformance and road manners.
I think you are getting yourself confused.

The Wrangler will do much automatically for you. I know marketing BS likes to dress up things as how did you say it "brake modulated front open diff". However all this is, is an off road biased traction control, i.e. it doesn't kill the throttle.

Wranglers - all of them. Have this as standard since 2005! And older Defenders since 1998! And this system works on all 4 wheels, not just the front.

So apart from putting the Jeep into 4 low, which you have to do in the Pretender too. You'd need not do anything and it would be extremely capable. The suspension design of the Jeep means it will keep it's wheels in contact with the ground more. So it will need to use and rely on its traction control a lot less. Which could make it easier to drive off road, as most people, at least at first struggle with off road traction control and either back off when the system engages or end up flooring it. Neither are the right thing to do. (you can see evidence of this all over YouTube).

Should the going get very difficult or on rocky terrain (please bear in mind, while we don't have rocky terrain in the UK by and large. It does cover a LARGE proportion of the USA and Africa). It is only a toggle switch in the Jeep to massively up level its capability.

The Terrain Response is quite clever. But my word is it fking complex. You really do need to be an expert in off roading and the Terrain system, to know which modes to use and when. I know it has categories, but sometimes they just don't work. And you'll find, that despite driving on rocks and mud. You may need to use the sand mode for certain obstacles as it'll allow more revs and wheel slip. Even the instructors at the Land Rover Experience Centre in Eastnor will get you to use some of the other modes, especially if it's wet out. And if you've been to Eastnor, you'd know there is a distinct lack of sand dunes.

DaveEvs

42 posts

57 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
My favourite version, and a clever move to take sales from VW t6, pickups and other “active lifestyle” choices. Expect to see them cramming the mtb trail carpark s soon.

300bhp/ton

38,603 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
Mr.Jimbo said:
For a very skilled off road driver I can see a manual-everything car like the Rubicon or an old Defender modded to have diff locks etc would probably go further...
Actually, you might be surprised at this statement but an auto is much better for a skilled driver... It gives you far more control for the very fiddly stuff, where you're having to move very slowly (e.g. Rock crawling). You can balance everything on the throttle without the danger of burning out a clutch.

Manuals are great for teaching off-road skills though. It makes the student think about gear selection, which is important for understanding the relationship between traction, torque & momentum. Once that understanding is there, it's then a case of learning how to control an auto (holding in gear for descents, etc...) and then it'll help you get even further.

Sure, there are going to be certain edge cases which I'm sure 'someone' will want to split hairs over but as someone with significant experience with both, I'd be selecting auto.

M
I wouldn't say an auto is much better, it has the benefit of not needing the clutch to be slipped at very very low speeds. Although in the case of the Rubicon and the aftermarket, you can get much lower low ranges than a regular Defender (past or present). But yes, rock crawling an auto is good. But general low speed control over rough terrain is much worse. You can't let the vehicle run along at tickover, because as soon as a tyre hits a rut or a tree root, the torque convertor will slip and the vehicle will stop. Meaning you constantly have to be on and off the throttle. In a manual it would just roll straight over such things without a bother.

Auto's also tend to have far worse engine braking. In the modern age, electronic torque convertor lockup helps reduce this and HDC is another bonus. But there is still no denying that on steep long descents the manual will still exhibit more control. HDC while being very cool and useful, relies fully on the braking system. And heavy prolonged off roading, especially on some terrain such as gritty, sandy muddy water. Can take a very heavy toll on the brakes. Also if the brakes read a certain temperature, such systems will shut down while the brakes cool.

biggles330d

450 posts

105 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Why can't people just see it for what it is? It's a new defender built on new tech, spec'd to appeal to people who maybe want one but have needs that call for something a bit more commercial. It's not a van and never will compete with a van, the door is too small, capacity too restricted and the price is too high. If your need was actually a van for 90%+ of the time, you'd save a shed load by just buying a van.

If you wanted a pickup, you'd buy a pickup. If you wanted a crew-cab, you'd buy a crew cab.

If you wanted a totally hard core off roader, it's probably the best bet but really, how many people actually use any of these vehicles to their most extreme. While the old defender was capable off road, I'm sure the vast majority of even 'heavy' users rarely came close to the limits of what it could do and for the most part the new defender is perfectly capable of tacking the same rough tracks and off-road excursions.

If however you wanted something more rugged and less precious than a discovery or range rover or any number of luxury SUVs, had a more occasional need for hauling bigger stuff around that an estate car wouldn't cope with but for the most part actually prefer something more comfortable and conventional, it makes a lot of sense.

I see a lot of people driving around in crew cabs and pick ups and they are nothing more than lifestyle choices too - very rarely do any seem to be loaded up. No doubt these are bought more for the commercial vehicle tax advantages than any real practical need.

I've been a couple of Hi-lux / Mitsubishi pick ups / Ford rangers etc. Yes, they are practical, but I just don't get why people choose to have them and all the compromises around how 'commercial' they feel to drive if they don't have a big need for the pick up bit. A defender commercial looks like it would be a much better compromise option if you tow heavy trailers, throw lots of kit in the back but also do big mileages and want a more comfortable and enjoyable steer for the majority of that. I have a discovery 4 commercial for much the same reason. It's handy for the occasional need to load it up with work stuff but for 90% of the time I use is little different to how I would a regular SUV. It's big, comfortable, practical and my business is picking up the bills.

I hope it sells well. Come changing the Disco, I'd look at one seriously as it's more natural successor to the bloated Disco 5 commercial.


300bhp/ton

38,603 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
300bhp/ton said:
Am I the only one not really getting the point of this one?
Probably...

300bhp/ton said:
Is the rear side window just blocked over? ie making it more dark inside and less visibility out. But still retains the middle doors and glass in them?
Errr... That's the way LR have done commercial derivatives for a while.

300bhp/ton said:
Surely the "hard top" model of old was simply because it was cheaper than the same panel with a window in. And there has been a big market since the 1950's installing glass windows into the sides of the hard top panels.
That's your interpretation... You've been told before; this isn't your product, it's Land Rover's. That can do with and call it what they like.

300bhp/ton said:
The so called 90 (Pretender 100") at least looks a bit more van like. But it still seems to be trendy marketing lead for rich folk to have as a toy, rather than as a practical workhorse.
ZZZZZzzzzz....

M
Why are you like this, i.e. a bit of a dick?

stickleback123

6,069 posts

144 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
I've got a feeling, and I might be wrong but I don't think so, that JLR have a much better idea of what sells in a £50k+ off roader than a lot of boring internet expert off roading nonces who bought their cars at 15 years old with a quarter of a million miles on the clock.

I also suspect that they, to use a business term, "cannot be arsed" making some utilitarian truck to sell for £30k and make two and tuppence profit on all 12 that they'd sell.

I'm going to really go out on a limb and also suggest that they, another business term here and I'm sorry to get so technical, "don't give a st what you think" if you're not someone who buys £50,000+ cars brand new.

300bhp/ton

38,603 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
meh,mumble, mumble, no beam axles

meh,mumble, mumble, you can't hose the interior out

meh,mumble, mumble, it's not as good off road as the old one

meh,mumble, mumble, a jeep is better

meh,mumble, mumble, i don't like how it looks



Same old, same old 300. from someone who's never bought a new car in their life..................


IMO, JLR have nailed the compromise (and yes, it's a compromise) perfectly on this, on the styling, the balance between road and off-road performance, pretty much on everything. Even the cost looks reasonable on these down-spec'd models.........
So no personal bias here? I hope your engineering skills are far better than your reading and quoting skills. As I haven't said any of the above and you are completely wrong on many levels. Lack of attention to detail....

camel_landy

3,057 posts

138 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Why are you like this, i.e. a bit of a dick?
...because everything you say has already been done to death. You are not bring anything new to the conversation.

We're bored of it.

M

oldtimer2

700 posts

88 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
I have bought a First Edition (with the 240D engine) and had it about a week. It is a pleasure to drive and has produced better fuel economy that I expected - 35mpg on mixed motorway, A and B roads on one early drive. On a 100 mile motorway/dual carriage way A road drive it achieved 40mpg at an average speed of 50mph. That included the 50mph restricted section of the M4 between Reading and the A308 junction. It has also proved to be remarkably quiet.

Tom Sheppard, who knows a thing or two about off road driving, is I understand seriously interested in the 90 hardtop for a future extended venture. I cannot think of a better or stronger endorsement. While here I will put a plug in for the latest (sixth) edition of his book Four-by-four driving.

camel_landy

3,057 posts

138 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
oldtimer2 said:
I have bought a First Edition (with the 240D engine) and had it about a week. It is a pleasure to drive and has produced better fuel economy that I expected - 35mpg on mixed motorway, A and B roads on one early drive. On a 100 mile motorway/dual carriage way A road drive it achieved 40mpg at an average speed of 50mph. That included the 50mph restricted section of the M4 between Reading and the A308 junction. It has also proved to be remarkably quiet.

Tom Sheppard, who knows a thing or two about off road driving, is I understand seriously interested in the 90 hardtop for a future extended venture. I cannot think of a better or stronger endorsement. While here I will put a plug in for the latest (sixth) edition of his book Four-by-four driving.
That's a name I've not heard for a while... smile

The Vehicle Dependant Expedition Guide (Desert Winds Publications) should be essential reading for anyone planning an expedition.

...and congrats on the new purchase. It might be worth starting a new thread with real life feedback. wink

M

oldtimer2

700 posts

88 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
That's a name I've not heard for a while... smile

The Vehicle Dependant Expedition Guide (Desert Winds Publications) should be essential reading for anyone planning an expedition.

...and congrats on the new purchase. It might be worth starting a new thread with real life feedback. wink

M
He mentioned his interest in the 90 hardtop to me when I told him I was getting the new Defender when ordering his latest edition of 4x4 driving. In it he has added a new 33 page section on Expedition Basics which covers many topics and is packed with practical advice. He certainly knows what he is talking about. I believe his Expedition Guide is out of print at the moment.