Is torque really relevant?
Discussion
Ron99 said:
donkmeister said:
I would go further and say that throttle response on modern engines is often misleading under normal circumstances. All the mainstream brands do it... You pick up the car, you drive a couple of miles and think "this feels peppy!". Then you get to a sliproad, floor it and find that what you thought was a moderate press of the throttle was actually full throttle.
It's like they've figured out that most drivers never pushed the pedal all the way so maximum power demand is in the first half of the pedal travel.
So OP, whatever you try, make sure you actually floor it a few times on your test drive.
I agree. It's like they've figured out that most drivers never pushed the pedal all the way so maximum power demand is in the first half of the pedal travel.
So OP, whatever you try, make sure you actually floor it a few times on your test drive.
A lot of low to medium powered cars seem to give three-quarters throttle opening with the accelerator pedal pressed about one-quarter.
Some manufacturers even say things like 'this engine delivers more oomph than you'd expect'.
It makes cars feel livelier than they actually are.
The more I read about it, the more it seemed to me that it simply gave you more throttle with less prod of the pedal, meaning the car was no quicker, but it just felt it in normal day to day driving. I did actually mention this but I am no expert, and they just talked some jargon at me and I was like "OK". They seem adamant the car was a lot better with it, but I couldn't see the point when I can just press my foot down harder if I need more power.
Equus said:
Then you will understand the meaning of your 'greater jerk' (!) and the fact that horsepower-for-horsepower, a car with more torque will have considerably more in-gear acceleration than one with less.
If they are making the same horse power, then given the correct gearing. Performance will be similar. Turbo diesels allow for a more lazy driving style, you don't need to push the pedal as hard or stir the box, esp compared to an n.a petrol engine. So if your argument is the same gear at part throttle from 2200rpm. Then yes the diesel will likely be making more torque and thus more power. So faster....But that is forcing the petrol to be driven like a diesel. If you use the gears and are say at 3500 in the petrol, then the tables may well be turned. And at WOT using the mid and high rev range, the petrol is nearly always the quicker. As shown in most performance stats.
Lots of road driving, especially cruising or commuting will suit and promote the lazy diesel style of driving.
TameRacingDriver said:
Ron99 said:
donkmeister said:
I would go further and say that throttle response on modern engines is often misleading under normal circumstances. All the mainstream brands do it... You pick up the car, you drive a couple of miles and think "this feels peppy!". Then you get to a sliproad, floor it and find that what you thought was a moderate press of the throttle was actually full throttle.
It's like they've figured out that most drivers never pushed the pedal all the way so maximum power demand is in the first half of the pedal travel.
So OP, whatever you try, make sure you actually floor it a few times on your test drive.
I agree. It's like they've figured out that most drivers never pushed the pedal all the way so maximum power demand is in the first half of the pedal travel.
So OP, whatever you try, make sure you actually floor it a few times on your test drive.
A lot of low to medium powered cars seem to give three-quarters throttle opening with the accelerator pedal pressed about one-quarter.
Some manufacturers even say things like 'this engine delivers more oomph than you'd expect'.
It makes cars feel livelier than they actually are.
The more I read about it, the more it seemed to me that it simply gave you more throttle with less prod of the pedal, meaning the car was no quicker, but it just felt it in normal day to day driving. I did actually mention this but I am no expert, and they just talked some jargon at me and I was like "OK". They seem adamant the car was a lot better with it, but I couldn't see the point when I can just press my foot down harder if I need more power.
The 3.0tdi is much nicer that a 2.0 petrol on the motorway.
So if most of your 7K miles are motorway or high speed then stick to the 3.0tdi. If your 7K miles are town and back roads then the 2.0petrol maybe the better option.
In the last 6 years I've skipped between 430d, Octavia VRS, 530e. The 530e maybe your answer. However I will be going back to the 3.0tdi next time.
So if most of your 7K miles are motorway or high speed then stick to the 3.0tdi. If your 7K miles are town and back roads then the 2.0petrol maybe the better option.
In the last 6 years I've skipped between 430d, Octavia VRS, 530e. The 530e maybe your answer. However I will be going back to the 3.0tdi next time.
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Diesel's deceptive because the power is available from very low revs and the rate of change of acceleration is all contained within a short range of revs. It feels fast because it all happens in a very short, often in-gear, burst.
I remember driving an E250 CDI Merc round town for a couple of weeks and being impressed at how it took off.When I finally had the opportunity to take it out of town I floored it.....and.......it immediately ran out of puff.
I had experienced The Lunge and that's all there was.
Fricking noisy it was, too.
Court_S said:
J4CKO said:
How much power and torque is required to "Make Progress" ?
I used to use our Citroen C1 and to be honest, didnt arrive anywhere slower than in my M135i, it could be painful up hills but it got there, there is a happy medium to be struck where a car works adequately and then a bit more in normal driving/legal(ish) road speeds.
I think a modern 2 litre TDI is all the torque, flexibility and performance you would ever need, and a bit more, then you are into want and degrees of total overkill.
Makes me laugh when anyone says a car is dangerous due to a lack of power, er nope, maybe something fromt he 1930s like an Austin Seven isn't really fast enough to keep up with traffic but anything you can buy now isn't dangerous, thats whoever is driving it, if it can reach all speed limits then its not going to kill you.
Even non enthusiasts get annoyed with slow cars, its why diesels are so popular, even if the 0-60 doesnt sound that fast, on the road they perform well, I get the impression a lot cant believe anything could possibly be faster than their 140 bhp Golf.
EV's will take over like MC Bodge says, the same thing as when diesel did in the early nineties, it was only when actual viable models were available that suited normal punters that it happened. Prior to about 1993 diesel models were horrible, slow taxi/farmer spec things which were only any good if you had free diesel. Will be the same with EV's when the price comes down and range goes up nobody is going to want a diesel.
That’s far too sensible an answer!I used to use our Citroen C1 and to be honest, didnt arrive anywhere slower than in my M135i, it could be painful up hills but it got there, there is a happy medium to be struck where a car works adequately and then a bit more in normal driving/legal(ish) road speeds.
I think a modern 2 litre TDI is all the torque, flexibility and performance you would ever need, and a bit more, then you are into want and degrees of total overkill.
Makes me laugh when anyone says a car is dangerous due to a lack of power, er nope, maybe something fromt he 1930s like an Austin Seven isn't really fast enough to keep up with traffic but anything you can buy now isn't dangerous, thats whoever is driving it, if it can reach all speed limits then its not going to kill you.
Even non enthusiasts get annoyed with slow cars, its why diesels are so popular, even if the 0-60 doesnt sound that fast, on the road they perform well, I get the impression a lot cant believe anything could possibly be faster than their 140 bhp Golf.
EV's will take over like MC Bodge says, the same thing as when diesel did in the early nineties, it was only when actual viable models were available that suited normal punters that it happened. Prior to about 1993 diesel models were horrible, slow taxi/farmer spec things which were only any good if you had free diesel. Will be the same with EV's when the price comes down and range goes up nobody is going to want a diesel.
My commute to work (when I was allowed to go to the office) took the same in my previous vRS diesel as it does in my current M140i. It was plenty brisk enough to get you in trouble with the bits in blue etc. It felt quicker than it really was due to the torque and third gear was pretty effective for overtaking.
I know there are much quicker cars than my 140, but even that’s a bit daft really. It gets to very illegal speeds with ease and you can’t really extend it much on the public roads.
I am thinking of going for a Fiesta ST, enough power, not quite as fast but more feedback, manual box and more fun at lower speeds on windier roads.
I had some nutter in a 2015 S3 (seemed messed with as well by the noise it was making) trying to "play" yesterday
but I have decided to completely avoid those scenarios as it just gets ridiculous in cars with that performance, so many opportunities to land yourself in court for doing way over 100 mph in no time. I let the S3 past and off he went, must have been doing 120 plus when he left my vision.
The available performance going up, at the same time as there are less opportunities to use it as we have target fixation after years of reviews, forums, numbers and videos, wanting more and more. We have all been chasing faster and faster and 200 bhp barely rates as warm these days, you then find yourself looking at massive V8 turbo saloons and wondering what tuning options there are to make them even faster, like having a two foot long six inch wide knob, very impressive but where are you actually going to use it
J4CKO said:
I am thinking of going for a Fiesta ST, enough power, not quite as fast but more feedback, manual box and more fun at lower speeds on windier roads.
Cooper S here, have had (slightly) faster cars, but this one is plenty fast for me, more than enough for the roads, a mate of mine has gone from a 140i to an F56 and prefers the latter. J4CKO said:
Court_S said:
J4CKO said:
How much power and torque is required to "Make Progress" ?
I used to use our Citroen C1 and to be honest, didnt arrive anywhere slower than in my M135i, it could be painful up hills but it got there, there is a happy medium to be struck where a car works adequately and then a bit more in normal driving/legal(ish) road speeds.
I think a modern 2 litre TDI is all the torque, flexibility and performance you would ever need, and a bit more, then you are into want and degrees of total overkill.
Makes me laugh when anyone says a car is dangerous due to a lack of power, er nope, maybe something fromt he 1930s like an Austin Seven isn't really fast enough to keep up with traffic but anything you can buy now isn't dangerous, thats whoever is driving it, if it can reach all speed limits then its not going to kill you.
Even non enthusiasts get annoyed with slow cars, its why diesels are so popular, even if the 0-60 doesnt sound that fast, on the road they perform well, I get the impression a lot cant believe anything could possibly be faster than their 140 bhp Golf.
EV's will take over like MC Bodge says, the same thing as when diesel did in the early nineties, it was only when actual viable models were available that suited normal punters that it happened. Prior to about 1993 diesel models were horrible, slow taxi/farmer spec things which were only any good if you had free diesel. Will be the same with EV's when the price comes down and range goes up nobody is going to want a diesel.
That’s far too sensible an answer!I used to use our Citroen C1 and to be honest, didnt arrive anywhere slower than in my M135i, it could be painful up hills but it got there, there is a happy medium to be struck where a car works adequately and then a bit more in normal driving/legal(ish) road speeds.
I think a modern 2 litre TDI is all the torque, flexibility and performance you would ever need, and a bit more, then you are into want and degrees of total overkill.
Makes me laugh when anyone says a car is dangerous due to a lack of power, er nope, maybe something fromt he 1930s like an Austin Seven isn't really fast enough to keep up with traffic but anything you can buy now isn't dangerous, thats whoever is driving it, if it can reach all speed limits then its not going to kill you.
Even non enthusiasts get annoyed with slow cars, its why diesels are so popular, even if the 0-60 doesnt sound that fast, on the road they perform well, I get the impression a lot cant believe anything could possibly be faster than their 140 bhp Golf.
EV's will take over like MC Bodge says, the same thing as when diesel did in the early nineties, it was only when actual viable models were available that suited normal punters that it happened. Prior to about 1993 diesel models were horrible, slow taxi/farmer spec things which were only any good if you had free diesel. Will be the same with EV's when the price comes down and range goes up nobody is going to want a diesel.
My commute to work (when I was allowed to go to the office) took the same in my previous vRS diesel as it does in my current M140i. It was plenty brisk enough to get you in trouble with the bits in blue etc. It felt quicker than it really was due to the torque and third gear was pretty effective for overtaking.
I know there are much quicker cars than my 140, but even that’s a bit daft really. It gets to very illegal speeds with ease and you can’t really extend it much on the public roads.
I am thinking of going for a Fiesta ST, enough power, not quite as fast but more feedback, manual box and more fun at lower speeds on windier roads.
I had some nutter in a 2015 S3 (seemed messed with as well by the noise it was making) trying to "play" yesterday
but I have decided to completely avoid those scenarios as it just gets ridiculous in cars with that performance, so many opportunities to land yourself in court for doing way over 100 mph in no time. I let the S3 past and off he went, must have been doing 120 plus when he left my vision.
The available performance going up, at the same time as there are less opportunities to use it as we have target fixation after years of reviews, forums, numbers and videos, wanting more and more. We have all been chasing faster and faster and 200 bhp barely rates as warm these days, you then find yourself looking at massive V8 turbo saloons and wondering what tuning options there are to make them even faster, like having a two foot long six inch wide knob, very impressive but where are you actually going to use it
I’ve engaged in one or two bits of silliness with mine I’ll admit and you do end up thinking it’s a bit daft afterwards.
Anyway, back on topic....
TameRacingDriver said:
J4CKO said:
I am thinking of going for a Fiesta ST, enough power, not quite as fast but more feedback, manual box and more fun at lower speeds on windier roads.
Cooper S here, have had (slightly) faster cars, but this one is plenty fast for me, more than enough for the roads, a mate of mine has gone from a 140i to an F56 and prefers the latter. AC43 said:
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Diesel's deceptive because the power is available from very low revs and the rate of change of acceleration is all contained within a short range of revs. It feels fast because it all happens in a very short, often in-gear, burst.
I remember driving an E250 CDI Merc round town for a couple of weeks and being impressed at how it took off.When I finally had the opportunity to take it out of town I floored it.....and.......it immediately ran out of puff.
I had experienced The Lunge and that's all there was.
Fricking noisy it was, too.
kambites said:
That's partly down to the shape of the torque curve, and partly down to a horribly non-linear throttle map. Manufacturers have learned that you can make a car feel faster to most people by cramming 90% of the torque response into the top 10% of pedal travel. It feels great when you think you're only using 10% of your available torque; then you realise you've actually been using 90% of the torque all along.
Similarly for brakes.Ps. Oddly, My 1.5 Ecoboost has the opposite sort of throttle mapping. It needs a lot of pushing and doesn't really respond quickly, even to a fast push.
Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 6th July 16:35
300bhp/ton said:
Equus said:
Then you will understand the meaning of your 'greater jerk' (!) and the fact that horsepower-for-horsepower, a car with more torque will have considerably more in-gear acceleration than one with less.
If they are making the same horse power, then given the correct gearing. Performance will be similar.In laymans terms - and without getting into the mathematics, which requires horribly complicated maths, including calculus as you're interested in area under the curve of the graph - the torque characteristics of a diesel give an effect similar to a close ratio gearset on a revvy petrol engine.
You're effectively compressing the 'bandwidth' of the change in engine speed necessary to deliver a certain level of acceleration.
Modern cars know both how FAR you've pressed the pedal and how FAST you've pressed the pedal and the electronics will react accordingly. If the car is an auto the pedal activates both the engine and the transmission, so it's unusual for an auto driver to "floor" the accelerator pedal to get a downchange. A quick tap will change the car down with no significant change of engine rpm. The electronics measure more than just pedal position.
It's all clever stuff. If you buy a decent car.
It's all clever stuff. If you buy a decent car.
rockin said:
Modern cars know both how FAR you've pressed the pedal and how FAST you've pressed the pedal and the electronics will react accordingly. If the car is an auto the pedal activates both the engine and the transmission, so it's unusual for an auto driver to "floor" the accelerator pedal to get a downchange. A quick tap will change the car down with no significant change of engine rpm. The electronics measure more than just pedal position.
It's all clever stuff. If you buy a decent car.
Not quite sure the bit in bold is correct? Can you explain how a gear change won't result in a change of engine rpm? Or maybe I'm not quite understanding correctly?It's all clever stuff. If you buy a decent car.
Torque is the power of your engine.
BHP is calculated by the torque output and engine revolutions. Both curves cross at 5252 RPM.
Bhp is the electrical power the engine generates.
Bhp is torque times RPM divided by 5252.
It is useful to know of the 5252 point as you can check your graph curves by it.
They will cross at those revs, below torque will be greater and above BHP will be.
BHP is calculated by the torque output and engine revolutions. Both curves cross at 5252 RPM.
Bhp is the electrical power the engine generates.
Bhp is torque times RPM divided by 5252.
It is useful to know of the 5252 point as you can check your graph curves by it.
They will cross at those revs, below torque will be greater and above BHP will be.
StuntmanMike said:
Torque is the power of your engine.
BHP is calculated by the torque output and engine revolutions. Both curves cross at 5252 RPM.
Bhp is the electrical power the engine generates.
Bhp is torque times RPM divided by 5252.
It is useful to know of the 5252 point as you can check your graph curves by it.
They will cross at those revs, below torque will be greater and above BHP will be.
If I remember correctly anyway BHP is calculated by the torque output and engine revolutions. Both curves cross at 5252 RPM.
Bhp is the electrical power the engine generates.
Bhp is torque times RPM divided by 5252.
It is useful to know of the 5252 point as you can check your graph curves by it.
They will cross at those revs, below torque will be greater and above BHP will be.
J4CKO said:
How much power and torque is required to "Make Progress" ?
Good question. Down A roads with good sight you only need more than the car you are about to overtake, or their co-operation.
Down B roads with poor sight I like 600nm or 400 bhp. Don't mind which of those two you give me.
Olivergt said:
rockin said:
Modern cars know both how FAR you've pressed the pedal and how FAST you've pressed the pedal and the electronics will react accordingly. If the car is an auto the pedal activates both the engine and the transmission, so it's unusual for an auto driver to "floor" the accelerator pedal to get a downchange. A quick tap will change the car down with no significant change of engine rpm. The electronics measure more than just pedal position.
It's all clever stuff. If you buy a decent car.
Not quite sure the bit in bold is correct? Can you explain how a gear change won't result in a change of engine rpm? Or maybe I'm not quite understanding correctly?It's all clever stuff. If you buy a decent car.
Personally I find this tendency annoying in my 530d, and if I ever want to overtake, or accelerate briskly on a slip road for example, I will always make sure I'm in full manual mode. In auto mode when I push the throttle down quickly I find the car dithers whilst it decides what to do, and then gives me far too low a gear with loads of revs, way beyond the engine's torque peak. If I'm in manual mode I get the downchange 200ms after I ask for it and then I just go - far simpler and more effective.
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