RE: Ineos Grenadier may be built in France
Discussion
davea18h said:
There'll be a limited edition Ineos Merkel, or Ineos Macron and the fully optioned Barnier Barnstormer. Why isn't Swindon's massive Honda factory being considered? Soon to be vacated and would be great for the workers there already trained up in car manufacturing.
The most sensible comment yet!Everything about this is sad.
From the Brexit that got us to this point, to the jobs that won't be created because of it. I'm sure this is a fine business decision, but it's a crying shame that building it in the UK is less financially viable than doing so in Eurozone Europe (i assume).
From the Brexit that got us to this point, to the jobs that won't be created because of it. I'm sure this is a fine business decision, but it's a crying shame that building it in the UK is less financially viable than doing so in Eurozone Europe (i assume).
Jag_NE said:
It’s a business, INEOS will always make choices that they expect will result in the most profit being made.
Contrary to 'common knowledge' there is no obligation on the directors of a company to choose the path of most profit.Of course if they have shareholders then they may be called on to explain their choices, but it's entirely possible and common for a company to make choices on a non-finacial basis e.g. contribution to the local economy or social improvement
This is certainly disappointing when one considers the 500 jobs and the others indirectly employed, but there must also be other UK jobs associated with this project beyond the manufacturing itself. The better the financial grounds the Grenadier is established on, the better those jobs have a chance of surviving, and perhaps even of being added to if the business performs very well.
davea18h said:
Why isn't Swindon's massive Honda factory being considered? Soon to be vacated and would be great for the workers there already trained up in car manufacturing.
Precisely because it is massive.The Honda plant is capable of building c. 250,000 cars per year (although it has recently been building about half that number). INEOS estimate they can sell up to 25,000 Grenadiers annually
RacerMike said:
The general consumer doesn't have a clue which wheels are driven on their car, least of all it's weight. If you asked 100 people in the high street whether their car weighed 900kg or 2900kg you'd likely see a normal distribution akin to flipping a coin. Given how expensive it would be to engineer a modern car that was 'lightweight' there's literally no motivation there. It would not result in greater profits for a company to make their car lightweight.
You can't expect an average consumer to understand what a lighter car does better. You have to explain the advantages to customers. Being lower variable costs, better handling, with batteries of same size longer range. You say it wouldn't make any difference. How come then cars like VW Up's, 107's and Kia Picanto's are so popular? The brands have translated the low weight to real life advantages for customers.skwdenyer said:
ZX10R NIN said:
It makes good business sense & will reduce production costs all of which makes good business sense so I can't blame them for pursuing this.
As others have said, JR was vocally espousing Brexit (and funding the Leave campaign) when most other senior business figures were opposing it.It is not unreasonable to expect him to “back Britain” under those circumstances.
How many more lessons do the British public need regarding the almost infallible evidence that people who are smart at business are rarely either ethical or smart at politics? The skills required to be able to build a business empire, to deceive, to bully, to crush and dominate are not aligned with the skills required to care about the common man and his welfare and prosperity. In most instances they are polar opposite traits.
You are merely the cow dung to be dried out and burnt to fuel their luxury. And yet the uneducated, the sad, the angry, the dispossessed, the envious and the fearful, willingly hurl themselves at these people, salivating and priapismic of the Second Coming.
The most disgusting aspect of Brexit was watching half the country fawning like flea bitten dogs scrabbling in the dirt at the feet of these deeply unpleasant people, desperate to be chosen to do their bidding. It was the most unBritish display of servitude and obsequiousness in living memory and an utter embarrassment.
There were so many valid arguments to Leave but they were all crushed under the weight of the lowest brow political campaign ever waged in the UK that an army of vegetables hoovered up in their fear and loathing like a vile braying mob of third world peasantry that inflicted its bile on an entire nation creating contempt and disbelief where once their was just pity.
But hey ho. We live and learn and we can all move forward rebuilding the country and La Granade May transpire to not matter at all if Wales stumps up a load of our cash to give to Jim or if no one with £40k+ in the West decides they need a Brexit Chariot of 20th century tech. Afterall, just how many people in the UK with £40k to burn for fun are the type of person who wants any of their money going to a creature like Jim? It’s a Brexit product at Remainer prices so maybe this latest bit of news is going to be a bigger marketing problem than the cost savings it brings.
Who knows but has there been a car that so many people have linked to a political cause?
DonkeyApple said:
None of these individuals were ‘backing Britain’ during their campaigning for Leave. This was extremely clear at the time but a lot of people simply did not want to see. All they wanted to do was to cling to anyone with one tho seemed to be saying a similar thing to them and use them to justify their belief. They weren’t backing those people then and it should be abundantly clear now, even to the most stalwart believer in economic isolation, the dismantling of evil London and the reemergence of GB as a global manufacturer that they weren’t and they aren’t now. They were backing themselves.
How many more lessons do the British public need regarding the almost infallible evidence that people who are smart at business are rarely either ethical or smart at politics? The skills required to be able to build a business empire, to deceive, to bully, to crush and dominate are not aligned with the skills required to care about the common man and his welfare and prosperity. In most instances they are polar opposite traits.
You are merely the cow dung to be dried out and burnt to fuel their luxury. And yet the uneducated, the sad, the angry, the dispossessed, the envious and the fearful, willingly hurl themselves at these people, salivating and priapismic of the Second Coming.
The most disgusting aspect of Brexit was watching half the country fawning like flea bitten dogs scrabbling in the dirt at the feet of these deeply unpleasant people, desperate to be chosen to do their bidding. It was the most unBritish display of servitude and obsequiousness in living memory and an utter embarrassment.
There were so many valid arguments to Leave but they were all crushed under the weight of the lowest brow political campaign ever waged in the UK that an army of vegetables hoovered up in their fear and loathing like a vile braying mob of third world peasantry that inflicted its bile on an entire nation creating contempt and disbelief where once their was just pity.
But hey ho. We live and learn and we can all move forward rebuilding the country and La Granade May transpire to not matter at all if Wales stumps up a load of our cash to give to Jim or if no one with £40k+ in the West decides they need a Brexit Chariot of 20th century tech. Afterall, just how many people in the UK with £40k to burn for fun are the type of person who wants any of their money going to a creature like Jim? It’s a Brexit product at Remainer prices so maybe this latest bit of news is going to be a bigger marketing problem than the cost savings it brings.
Who knows but has there been a car that so many people have linked to a political cause?
Thank you for your thoughtful, well written and imo accurate post. How many more lessons do the British public need regarding the almost infallible evidence that people who are smart at business are rarely either ethical or smart at politics? The skills required to be able to build a business empire, to deceive, to bully, to crush and dominate are not aligned with the skills required to care about the common man and his welfare and prosperity. In most instances they are polar opposite traits.
You are merely the cow dung to be dried out and burnt to fuel their luxury. And yet the uneducated, the sad, the angry, the dispossessed, the envious and the fearful, willingly hurl themselves at these people, salivating and priapismic of the Second Coming.
The most disgusting aspect of Brexit was watching half the country fawning like flea bitten dogs scrabbling in the dirt at the feet of these deeply unpleasant people, desperate to be chosen to do their bidding. It was the most unBritish display of servitude and obsequiousness in living memory and an utter embarrassment.
There were so many valid arguments to Leave but they were all crushed under the weight of the lowest brow political campaign ever waged in the UK that an army of vegetables hoovered up in their fear and loathing like a vile braying mob of third world peasantry that inflicted its bile on an entire nation creating contempt and disbelief where once their was just pity.
But hey ho. We live and learn and we can all move forward rebuilding the country and La Granade May transpire to not matter at all if Wales stumps up a load of our cash to give to Jim or if no one with £40k+ in the West decides they need a Brexit Chariot of 20th century tech. Afterall, just how many people in the UK with £40k to burn for fun are the type of person who wants any of their money going to a creature like Jim? It’s a Brexit product at Remainer prices so maybe this latest bit of news is going to be a bigger marketing problem than the cost savings it brings.
Who knows but has there been a car that so many people have linked to a political cause?
unsprung said:
If I would have the uncommon fortune to become a billionaire potentate, I would be honoured, grateful even, to return and to pay tax in my home nation.
It's not like the UK has the most insufferable tax regime. And, to some extent, when one is the 850-pound gorilla of employment and tax, there are times when one is able to shape regional or national investment and / or ask for particular favours.
Imagine how one might personally influence the lives of young people by being able to walk among them and serve as role model. A bit naff, I know. But priceless.
So you save a couple hundred million quid by living far away in a tax haven? Big deal. Can't take it with you. But the opportunity to influence positive change at home and to endow countless legacies...?
Just my two cents.
It’s the nature of the beast. There are of course anomalies but to create such intense wealth requires the kind of contempt and avarice that prevents such a person from ever appreciating just how low our tax regime is here and how irrelevant paying a few more pennies on the pound is. It's not like the UK has the most insufferable tax regime. And, to some extent, when one is the 850-pound gorilla of employment and tax, there are times when one is able to shape regional or national investment and / or ask for particular favours.
Imagine how one might personally influence the lives of young people by being able to walk among them and serve as role model. A bit naff, I know. But priceless.
So you save a couple hundred million quid by living far away in a tax haven? Big deal. Can't take it with you. But the opportunity to influence positive change at home and to endow countless legacies...?
Just my two cents.
In addition to that it is also extremely common for them to hold their fellow countrymen of the same birth background as them in total contempt. They climbed over them and exploited them to get out and get where they are and they aren’t going to stop because these people now worship them as gods.
What I don’t understand is how so many Britons appear so oblivious to the nature of the beast.
However, re ‘giving it back’ it is a perfectly fair argument to question just how much you should ‘give back’ to a nation that you happened to randomly be born into and have had no say over the matter? He probably paid huge amounts in tax prior to offshoring himself, almost certainly more than his own fair share.
As an adult we are free to choose where we live and where we pay tax. He has chosen a different country. I believe you have chosen a different country. We are all free to choose a different country that fits who we are better if the random one we were born in doesn’t quite fit. Should we then remain beholden for ever to that country? Somewhere there is a cut off.
The problem, which is also the huge advanatage to us in the UK, is that if you are an extremely wealthy Brit you invariably do not want your children to be educated outside of the British system and lose all the credibility and status that you crave through insecurity that the English public school system brings you. No one is going to be sitting at a table in Monaco next to competitors who all have their children at Marlborough, Radley or if a bit thick, Harrow and Eton (
). You have no choice. You also have the problem that your wife will not tolerate not owning property in London nor being able to shop in London. Especially if she is not English. It would be social humiliation to be sitting in Monaco with the other wives and to not be discussing the size of your house or street name in London or to be able to join them on the shopping adventure. Then there is the shooting and fishing. You don’t shoot? Then you still live on the council estate you were born on. It’s essential that you have all the kit and pay for all the right days. Which outside of a few third world corners of the planet are all found in the UK. The truth is that we could run the UK like Hotel California for tax purposes as few ever truly leave and the social stigma of not having your children at the right schools and buying their connections to the right sort, so embarrassment of your wife not being able to go shopping with the girls and you not being able to go to the polo, go shooting or attend anynof the vital global social events that the UK hosts morenof every year than any other country would outweigh any tax savings from surrendering ones domicile.
It’s one of the great shames here as it would be great for the UK and as well as keeping people paying tax here long after they need to or should be obliged to, it would draw in many of the same types of people from all over the world. But for it to happen you would need to drop the 50% rate down to below 20% at a certain threshold. And do we think that would be a vote winner among the people who want these individuals to pay tax here?
DonkeyApple said:
Who knows but has there been a car that so many people have linked to a political cause?
Every pickup advert in America? Without getting political the idea of escapism and a belief that by buying the bigger, longer, reflection of what you would like to be is what has fuelled the Ford F150 to be an extension of politics. Every advert is of white people doing things they dream of, people towing 5 ton trailers, Airsreams or doing Baja?
Not the fat people in a Walmart carparks.
Drive a RAM or F-150 in Utah and you understand why more is more. I can understand why they are popular. But drive one outside of Merica and you see it for what it is and how out of step it is and why they never sell to anyone other than white trash.
Just as LandRover launch in Africa in a Happy Valley style romance. The Ineos is doing the same, given a clean sheet of paper was this anything other than a distorted look to the past of a Brit living in the south of France thinking this is what the world needs?
Jimmy Recard said:
B10 said:
Really the 70s were over a few decades ago. Nissan's plant in Sunderland is one of their best. The other points are so general they do not warrant a reply/. So lets be positive about the UK or move.
Really? If you live in a country, you should embrace every facet and shouldn't suggest that improvements might be possible?If that was the case, there would be no elections, we could have a sitting government for life with no opposition.
DonkeyApple said:
It’s the nature of the beast. There are of course anomalies but to create such intense wealth requires the kind of contempt and avarice that prevents such a person from ever appreciating just how low our tax regime is here and how irrelevant paying a few more pennies on the pound is.
In addition to that it is also extremely common for them to hold their fellow countrymen of the same birth background as them in total contempt. They climbed over them and exploited them to get out and get where they are and they aren’t going to stop because these people now worship them as gods.
What I don’t understand is how so many Britons appear so oblivious to the nature of the beast.
However, re ‘giving it back’ it is a perfectly fair argument to question just how much you should ‘give back’ to a nation that you happened to randomly be born into and have had no say over the matter? He probably paid huge amounts in tax prior to offshoring himself, almost certainly more than his own fair share.
As an adult we are free to choose where we live and where we pay tax. He has chosen a different country. I believe you have chosen a different country. We are all free to choose a different country that fits who we are better if the random one we were born in doesn’t quite fit. Should we then remain beholden for ever to that country? Somewhere there is a cut off.
The problem, which is also the huge advanatage to us in the UK, is that if you are an extremely wealthy Brit you invariably do not want your children to be educated outside of the British system and lose all the credibility and status that you crave through insecurity that the English public school system brings you. No one is going to be sitting at a table in Monaco next to competitors who all have their children at Marlborough, Radley or if a bit thick, Harrow and Eton (). You have no choice. You also have the problem that your wife will not tolerate not owning property in London nor being able to shop in London. Especially if she is not English. It would be social humiliation to be sitting in Monaco with the other wives and to not be discussing the size of your house or street name in London or to be able to join them on the shopping adventure. Then there is the shooting and fishing. You don’t shoot? Then you still live on the council estate you were born on. It’s essential that you have all the kit and pay for all the right days. Which outside of a few third world corners of the planet are all found in the UK.
The truth is that we could run the UK like Hotel California for tax purposes as few ever truly leave and the social stigma of not having your children at the right schools and buying their connections to the right sort, so embarrassment of your wife not being able to go shopping with the girls and you not being able to go to the polo, go shooting or attend anynof the vital global social events that the UK hosts morenof every year than any other country would outweigh any tax savings from surrendering ones domicile.
It’s one of the great shames here as it would be great for the UK and as well as keeping people paying tax here long after they need to or should be obliged to, it would draw in many of the same types of people from all over the world. But for it to happen you would need to drop the 50% rate down to below 20% at a certain threshold. And do we think that would be a vote winner among the people who want these individuals to pay tax here?
It is very simple adopt the American system of taxing citizens on World wide income. In addition to that it is also extremely common for them to hold their fellow countrymen of the same birth background as them in total contempt. They climbed over them and exploited them to get out and get where they are and they aren’t going to stop because these people now worship them as gods.
What I don’t understand is how so many Britons appear so oblivious to the nature of the beast.
However, re ‘giving it back’ it is a perfectly fair argument to question just how much you should ‘give back’ to a nation that you happened to randomly be born into and have had no say over the matter? He probably paid huge amounts in tax prior to offshoring himself, almost certainly more than his own fair share.
As an adult we are free to choose where we live and where we pay tax. He has chosen a different country. I believe you have chosen a different country. We are all free to choose a different country that fits who we are better if the random one we were born in doesn’t quite fit. Should we then remain beholden for ever to that country? Somewhere there is a cut off.
The problem, which is also the huge advanatage to us in the UK, is that if you are an extremely wealthy Brit you invariably do not want your children to be educated outside of the British system and lose all the credibility and status that you crave through insecurity that the English public school system brings you. No one is going to be sitting at a table in Monaco next to competitors who all have their children at Marlborough, Radley or if a bit thick, Harrow and Eton (
). You have no choice. You also have the problem that your wife will not tolerate not owning property in London nor being able to shop in London. Especially if she is not English. It would be social humiliation to be sitting in Monaco with the other wives and to not be discussing the size of your house or street name in London or to be able to join them on the shopping adventure. Then there is the shooting and fishing. You don’t shoot? Then you still live on the council estate you were born on. It’s essential that you have all the kit and pay for all the right days. Which outside of a few third world corners of the planet are all found in the UK. The truth is that we could run the UK like Hotel California for tax purposes as few ever truly leave and the social stigma of not having your children at the right schools and buying their connections to the right sort, so embarrassment of your wife not being able to go shopping with the girls and you not being able to go to the polo, go shooting or attend anynof the vital global social events that the UK hosts morenof every year than any other country would outweigh any tax savings from surrendering ones domicile.
It’s one of the great shames here as it would be great for the UK and as well as keeping people paying tax here long after they need to or should be obliged to, it would draw in many of the same types of people from all over the world. But for it to happen you would need to drop the 50% rate down to below 20% at a certain threshold. And do we think that would be a vote winner among the people who want these individuals to pay tax here?
If they don't like it f
k off and get citizenship elsewhere. citizensm1th said:
It is very simple adopt the American system of taxing citizens on World wide income.
If they don't like it fk off and get citizenship elsewhere.
We are a small island with some world leading amenities so a slightly more nuanced approach would be preferable such as combining that with income tiers that encourage locals to earn as much as possible but also encourage more of such people to locate here and pay tax to the UK. We already have these people here it is just that they don’t have to pay any tax. Logically, it is better to receive 10% on trillions of income than 50% on nothing. Arguably, something that is rather important to implement if we are no longer to be the playground, commercial hub and socially free option in the EU. If they don't like it f
k off and get citizenship elsewhere. DonkeyApple said:
skwdenyer said:
ZX10R NIN said:
It makes good business sense & will reduce production costs all of which makes good business sense so I can't blame them for pursuing this.
As others have said, JR was vocally espousing Brexit (and funding the Leave campaign) when most other senior business figures were opposing it.It is not unreasonable to expect him to “back Britain” under those circumstances.
How many more lessons do the British public need regarding the almost infallible evidence that people who are smart at business are rarely either ethical or smart at politics? The skills required to be able to build a business empire, to deceive, to bully, to crush and dominate are not aligned with the skills required to care about the common man and his welfare and prosperity. In most instances they are polar opposite traits.
You are merely the cow dung to be dried out and burnt to fuel their luxury. And yet the uneducated, the sad, the angry, the dispossessed, the envious and the fearful, willingly hurl themselves at these people, salivating and priapismic of the Second Coming.
The most disgusting aspect of Brexit was watching half the country fawning like flea bitten dogs scrabbling in the dirt at the feet of these deeply unpleasant people, desperate to be chosen to do their bidding. It was the most unBritish display of servitude and obsequiousness in living memory and an utter embarrassment.
There were so many valid arguments to Leave but they were all crushed under the weight of the lowest brow political campaign ever waged in the UK that an army of vegetables hoovered up in their fear and loathing like a vile braying mob of third world peasantry that inflicted its bile on an entire nation creating contempt and disbelief where once their was just pity.
But hey ho. We live and learn and we can all move forward rebuilding the country and La Granade May transpire to not matter at all if Wales stumps up a load of our cash to give to Jim or if no one with £40k+ in the West decides they need a Brexit Chariot of 20th century tech. Afterall, just how many people in the UK with £40k to burn for fun are the type of person who wants any of their money going to a creature like Jim? It’s a Brexit product at Remainer prices so maybe this latest bit of news is going to be a bigger marketing problem than the cost savings it brings.
Who knows but has there been a car that so many people have linked to a political cause?
It may make great sense to build in a turnkey factory abroad but suddenly that “heritage” shape has lost a fair amount of cachet here in the UK I suspect. Whilst The new defender may not be built in the UK at least the company builds other lines here. If it looks classic British but is built by the french I think that will hit sales as in that case why not just buy any other foreign vehicle which has more heritage anyway.
Maybe not an issue for the commercial market but a bit of one for the leisure brigade I suspect
Maybe not an issue for the commercial market but a bit of one for the leisure brigade I suspect
travisc said:
It may make great sense to build in a turnkey factory abroad but suddenly that “heritage” shape has lost a fair amount of cachet here in the UK I suspect. Whilst The new defender may not be built in the UK at least the company builds other lines here. If it looks classic British but is built by the french I think that will hit sales as in that case why not just buy any other foreign vehicle which has more heritage anyway.
Maybe not an issue for the commercial market but a bit of one for the leisure brigade I suspect
The new Defender was 95% engineered in the UK, to the tune of around £250million in direct costs, and probably another 50 to 80 million in wages. The only overseas spend was on in-territory testing. It supports people like me directly!Maybe not an issue for the commercial market but a bit of one for the leisure brigade I suspect
The Grenadier has as far as i can tell zero UK development spend. I don't any UK firm or personel working on it's development in the UK.
chelme said:
RacerMike said:
chelme said:
I'd be very interested to know whether the Company is HQ'd here in the UK. I have a suspicion, even the company is based abroad.
My theory is that the decision as to where to engineer the vehicle was based on the availability of skilled personel and knowledge, as it seems, was the decision as to where to assemble the vehicles.
Had the UK had a large, and importantly, a home grown vehicle manufacturing sector that proved itself over time to be innovative and able to evolve as part of a successful export led economy, I am certain the decision to engineer and assemble the vehicle in the UK would have come as second nature, despite Brexit.
The reality is that whilst the UK is the 8th largest manufacturer (in general, not just cars) in the world, a whopping 40% of that is foreign owned. The historical knowledge and experience of implementing this huge exercise has, since the 80's been eroded. We can speak of Nissan and Honda here in the UK for example, however all the conceptual thinking and implementation of how to manufacture and be efficient at this, not to mention new ideas being brought forward and to be innovative is highly likely to come from Japan and and even if great ideas came from British thinkers within the company, the owner of this knowledge is a company or person abroad.
And then there is the faith and confidence and I suspect this is lacking too for the historical reasons I merely touched on above.
Whilst in certain industries the UK may lead, this is one where we could learn a lot from others.
The question is have we, or will we? These questions have been asked for some time now going back the 80s, but I have not seen many new homegrown British brands enter the market...there is McLaren, which is good.
Its not as if I am taking pleasure in speaking of this either. However this is a recurring theme and I'd like to know why, out of interest.
Anyone who disagrees or takes a different view, I'm all for meaningful contributions.
Generally I think the 8,000 plus skilled engineers living here and working for JLR from both the UK and Abroad, the hundreds who work at Ricardo (who engineered the McLaren V8, and the 7 speed DCT for the Bugatti Veyron/Chiron), the thousands at McLaren developing world leading supercars (regardless of the companies marketing strategy), the hundreds at Crew engineer and testing Bentleys, the several hundred working at Williams Advanced Engineering as consultants to a lot of the words leading manufacturers on Vehicle Dynamics and EV/Hybrid systems, the hundreds at Lotus currently developing the Evija and the several hundred who just got fired by Dyson who were trying to find jobs again would fundamentally disagree with that statement. There's phenomenal talent in the UK for the nitty gritty and important bits that, judging by the number of Brits I encounter working throughout the European car industry in test and development, would back this up.My theory is that the decision as to where to engineer the vehicle was based on the availability of skilled personel and knowledge, as it seems, was the decision as to where to assemble the vehicles.
Had the UK had a large, and importantly, a home grown vehicle manufacturing sector that proved itself over time to be innovative and able to evolve as part of a successful export led economy, I am certain the decision to engineer and assemble the vehicle in the UK would have come as second nature, despite Brexit.
The reality is that whilst the UK is the 8th largest manufacturer (in general, not just cars) in the world, a whopping 40% of that is foreign owned. The historical knowledge and experience of implementing this huge exercise has, since the 80's been eroded. We can speak of Nissan and Honda here in the UK for example, however all the conceptual thinking and implementation of how to manufacture and be efficient at this, not to mention new ideas being brought forward and to be innovative is highly likely to come from Japan and and even if great ideas came from British thinkers within the company, the owner of this knowledge is a company or person abroad.
And then there is the faith and confidence and I suspect this is lacking too for the historical reasons I merely touched on above.
Whilst in certain industries the UK may lead, this is one where we could learn a lot from others.
The question is have we, or will we? These questions have been asked for some time now going back the 80s, but I have not seen many new homegrown British brands enter the market...there is McLaren, which is good.
Its not as if I am taking pleasure in speaking of this either. However this is a recurring theme and I'd like to know why, out of interest.
Anyone who disagrees or takes a different view, I'm all for meaningful contributions.
The UK is categorically really good engineering things well (usually against hilarious time constraints), but terrible at planning properly or managing to do things to process. It's why we're do good at making racing cars (big problems that seem almost impossible to fix but have no money constraint at all) and terrible at making reliable mass produced stuff (because everything ends up being done last minute without enough testing).
Personally, if I started a car company, it would have German's planning the whole thing, Brits doing the engineering and it would be made in Eastern Europe where people generally take pride in their work and use British or American talent to market the thing.
However, as alluded to above by another poster, there are fewer people within the industry here in the UK to draw from for a start up, than there are in say, in Germany/France.
This is partly due to engineering and related subjects being considered more prestigious on the Continent, with commensurate rewards compared to the UK, where I suspect, roles within manufacturing sector are viewed/treated as a vocation, not a profession.
Edited by chelme on Tuesday 7th July 14:21
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