RE: 11,500lb ft Hummer EV lands
Discussion
Henry_b said:
Why is it every EV thread instead of focusing on the car it turns into a debate on whether it hurts the planet or not....
11,500lbs-ft from the batteries and motor which is more like 800ft lbs..
350mi or range that it won't do..
It looks very cool "i'll give it that"
It if for a niche market of rich people who'll never take it offroad.
And 'erm....
Nobody cares about what ICE does to the environment, if you cared even a little you wouldn't own a vehicle of any kind maybe a bicycle..
I bet most of all reading this thread have used a car to do a journey that could easily been done on foot..
etc etc
I'd hazard we'd have a better chance of cleaning are act up if we stopped making cars altogether and used the ones we have instead of replacing them every 6 months.
Imagine the drop in pollution of all manufacturers ceased production for a week?
This is basically true. An we saw how the air quality improved during lockdown.11,500lbs-ft from the batteries and motor which is more like 800ft lbs..
350mi or range that it won't do..
It looks very cool "i'll give it that"
It if for a niche market of rich people who'll never take it offroad.
And 'erm....
Nobody cares about what ICE does to the environment, if you cared even a little you wouldn't own a vehicle of any kind maybe a bicycle..
I bet most of all reading this thread have used a car to do a journey that could easily been done on foot..
etc etc
I'd hazard we'd have a better chance of cleaning are act up if we stopped making cars altogether and used the ones we have instead of replacing them every 6 months.
Imagine the drop in pollution of all manufacturers ceased production for a week?
Edited by Henry_b on Wednesday 21st October 14:19
The slight fly in the ointment would be mass loss of jobs, loss of income and tax revenue and you know the collapse of society. But other than that it is a good idea.
Evanivitch said:
Henry_b said:
Evanivitch said:
To further complicate it, an EV battery can have a second-life as a grid storage device after the car chassis is scrapped. How is that counted in the emissions?
Depends on the condition of the batteries themselves i'd imagine. Given the time shift it is also likely that as energy densities and production costs will have improved significantly by 2030 it may simply be worth recycling even viable batteries as you will get more storage capacity out of them.
For reference early Model S batteries are retaining 85% capacity out to 300,000 miles.
Talksteer said:
Think the elephants in the room are:
1: The Hummer is nearly twice the price of the Cybertruck for slightly worse specs
2: Tesla have mastered putting together an EV supply chain capable of supplying hundred of thousands/millions of cars, GMs sales target for the Hummer EV are in the region of 10,000 per year,
3: The Hummer brand was dropped due to negative connotations with pollution and war.
4: This is what happened to their last Tesla killer and this isn't really a total picture as the Model 3 s exported to far more places.
The real elephant in the room is that the Cybertruck is a total impossibility unless Tesla manage to buy off the legislators in the US and Europe enough to make it road legal. What was shown is completely impossible as-is. The actual form of the Cybertruck will be much different, regardless of spec.1: The Hummer is nearly twice the price of the Cybertruck for slightly worse specs
2: Tesla have mastered putting together an EV supply chain capable of supplying hundred of thousands/millions of cars, GMs sales target for the Hummer EV are in the region of 10,000 per year,
3: The Hummer brand was dropped due to negative connotations with pollution and war.
4: This is what happened to their last Tesla killer and this isn't really a total picture as the Model 3 s exported to far more places.
This is a vehicle which is ready and about to end up in production. Paper specs don't mean anything until it's built.
Regarding your point about infrastructure - GM already have masses of manufacturing capacity, they will gradually convert from ICE to EV platform production as the models are ready and selling.
Henry_b said:
Why is it every EV thread instead of focusing on the car it turns into a debate on whether it hurts the planet or not....
]
I guess it is simply a function of all the billions on marketing and tax incentives built solely on the highly dubious argument that EVs are good for the environment. ]
If there were no tax breaks and they simply marketed EVs as being a different form of transport then there wouldn’t be the endless discussion.
We all recognise that buying lots of new, heavier and heavier cars and using them more and more isn’t the solution and that in reality the only solution is to buy fewer new cars and to use cars less frequently but the wider public are just lost. One minute they are buying as many Diesel engines cars as possible and then they wake up one morning to find that they’ve been being total
s and that now they should be buying as many EVs as possible. In a few years they will have yet another epiphany and find themselves havingnto buy something else because that was all a load of bks to keep them borrowing and spending more and more and more. 
Buy less. Use less. Waste less. The key is to select the product that allows you to do that best of you care about it. That may even be a diesel car becausenof how you personally use a car. But for very few will the credible answer to be spunking £100k on a 3 tonne bohemith with usage restrictions.
. Such a thing is just peak consumption at every level and purely for fun. Talksteer said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
C2G emissions are interesting. I recall seeing a paper a number of years back attempting to qauntify it for road vehicles.
It concluded that a V8 jeep was way greener C2G than a prius. The key reasons were amortising co2 'costs' of factory and production line across the model's life-time, and the fact that most jeeps are still being driven. In contrast phevs and bevs have a much shorter life-span and the cell and battery production are very co2 intensive.
But then you get into component sharing and localised vs centralised co2 emissions.
Anyone got any links to a good model that takes account of all the factors?
The study you recall was basically funded by oil companies and made insane assumptions around things like the carbon cost of R&D or factories.It concluded that a V8 jeep was way greener C2G than a prius. The key reasons were amortising co2 'costs' of factory and production line across the model's life-time, and the fact that most jeeps are still being driven. In contrast phevs and bevs have a much shorter life-span and the cell and battery production are very co2 intensive.
But then you get into component sharing and localised vs centralised co2 emissions.
Anyone got any links to a good model that takes account of all the factors?
Batteries in new BEVs are good for about 1500-2000 full cycles or around 500,000 miles of driving. There is also no inherent reason why battery cell production must be energy intensive or why the energy used cannot come from low carbon sources.
Most of what is in an BEV and an ICE car is the same, steel, aluminium, nickel, polymers, rubber. Nothing inherently has to produce emissions, you could run your mine, smelter and factory off low carbon energy.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric...
https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2019-tesla-impact-...
We as a world seem completely obsessed with carbon emissions, Ignoring all other forms of pollution. We will happily poison the environment if it helps us achieve our carbon quota. Indonesia currently pour the waste products of nickel mining, you know the major component in Li-ion batteries, straight into the sea. That's before we mention how they plan to ensure adequate lithium supply going forward.
All we are doing is replacing one finite, damaging resource for another. It's just we don't currently know what the long term effects of this are yet. Ignorance is bliss.
At the end of the day these companies aren't here to save the planet, they're here to make money, Tesla included.
You want to save the planet, buy a bicycle.
sisu said:
More is more. I love how american and British 4x4s (landi, grenadier) are going down a road of super sizing everything.
Why do the Americans always want to remove doors, roofs and panels off road. You get sunburnt, dust, mud, mosquitos and rain come in. So everything needs to be in sealed bags.
What struck me with the new Bronco is that this is a 4 person 2 door off roader with the interior space of a Mini?
Chest height on a normal man. I am sure they will sell them to people who like to pretend they are doing things. But oh dear see one in person before you order it.
Daddy Doug Why do the Americans always want to remove doors, roofs and panels off road. You get sunburnt, dust, mud, mosquitos and rain come in. So everything needs to be in sealed bags.
What struck me with the new Bronco is that this is a 4 person 2 door off roader with the interior space of a Mini?
Chest height on a normal man. I am sure they will sell them to people who like to pretend they are doing things. But oh dear see one in person before you order it.
A few points;
1. the million mile battery
2. I know of a great many ICE's that won't last that long
3. The relative simplicity of the EV
4. The fact that the energy source for these EV's are perfectly capable of coming from renewable sources, and many consumers are running them from their own PV panels + Tesla Powerwall infrastructure
5. If one looks at the cost structure, we see the cost of PV panels and battery storage have significantly decreased over time, and I expect to continue seeing this.
6. We also have additional, competing technologies, which look like they can offer orders-of-magnitude improvements, in the electrification space.
If only ICE had these attributes. They don't so they will be deader than disco.
1. the million mile battery
2. I know of a great many ICE's that won't last that long
3. The relative simplicity of the EV
4. The fact that the energy source for these EV's are perfectly capable of coming from renewable sources, and many consumers are running them from their own PV panels + Tesla Powerwall infrastructure
5. If one looks at the cost structure, we see the cost of PV panels and battery storage have significantly decreased over time, and I expect to continue seeing this.
6. We also have additional, competing technologies, which look like they can offer orders-of-magnitude improvements, in the electrification space.
If only ICE had these attributes. They don't so they will be deader than disco.
The body and interior is quite similar to the H2 though the entirety is very different. Give credit to GM for reviving a name perfect for electrification. Yet it seems too expensive for rural use where room exists to use it. And where it might be afforded in urban settings, it has the size problem of the old model. Plus, despite it's off-road capabilities, I've yet to see if it will fit the Rubicon Trail. Make 'em and sell 'em, GM! Best of good luck.
Once the battery is lacking in capacity for road use you then have the next 10 years to store renewable energy for a village......as the Renault batteries from old taxis currently. The batteries will by then be 100% recyclable and provide for new 1000kW/hr batteries, maybe!.......no on can yet evaluate the true life costs of current EV batteries!
big_rob_sydney said:
A few points;
1. the million mile battery
2. I know of a great many ICE's that won't last that long
3. The relative simplicity of the EV
4. The fact that the energy source for these EV's are perfectly capable of coming from renewable sources, and many consumers are running them from their own PV panels + Tesla Powerwall infrastructure
5. If one looks at the cost structure, we see the cost of PV panels and battery storage have significantly decreased over time, and I expect to continue seeing this.
6. We also have additional, competing technologies, which look like they can offer orders-of-magnitude improvements, in the electrification space.
If only ICE had these attributes. They don't so they will be deader than disco.
Yes but... I haven't owned a petrol-powered car for years due to cost / distances driven, but modern petrol-powered engineering has made HUGE steps over the last 10-20 years! And it continues. Consider1. the million mile battery
2. I know of a great many ICE's that won't last that long
3. The relative simplicity of the EV
4. The fact that the energy source for these EV's are perfectly capable of coming from renewable sources, and many consumers are running them from their own PV panels + Tesla Powerwall infrastructure
5. If one looks at the cost structure, we see the cost of PV panels and battery storage have significantly decreased over time, and I expect to continue seeing this.
6. We also have additional, competing technologies, which look like they can offer orders-of-magnitude improvements, in the electrification space.
If only ICE had these attributes. They don't so they will be deader than disco.
1. Modern cars don't generally rust away or fall to pieces before several hundred thousand miles
2. Remember gapping points etc? - modern electronics make cars much simpler than they were.
3. Changing spark plugs at 12,000 miles? My last petrol car (1991 Taurus SHO) went 100,000 miles on a set of plugs. Oil changes at 6,000? My old diesel goes 20k between changes.
4. Pending savings not so great because ICE technology is more mature - but every year there are new savings, and modern petrol mpg is out of this world compared with just a few years ago.
5. Electric is a competing technology against all the other "driving" technologies - and being "perfectly capable" of coming from renewable is purely theoretical, depending on priorities...
louiebaby said:
It becomes a lot more complicated when you consider that it's ENERGY USAGE that is the issue with new car manufacture. Whether it be aluminium refining or battery manufacture.
If the new cars were to be manufactured using renewable or nuclear power, then the impact to the environment is significantly reduced. It's not removed, because mining is very damaging to the environment, for example.
If a CyberTruck was made using nuclear power for the metal refining, battery manufacture and car build, with care taken to produce the components in a environmentally friendly way, then powered using renewable electricity for it's life, then the lifetime impact is a lot less.
It's a big "IF" above, but that is probably the conversation we should be having.
100% this. The idea that BEVs produce higher lifetime emissions than fossil-fuelled (ICE) vehicles is premised entirely on the baseless assumption that the embedded energy in the product will come from more fossil fuels.If the new cars were to be manufactured using renewable or nuclear power, then the impact to the environment is significantly reduced. It's not removed, because mining is very damaging to the environment, for example.
If a CyberTruck was made using nuclear power for the metal refining, battery manufacture and car build, with care taken to produce the components in a environmentally friendly way, then powered using renewable electricity for it's life, then the lifetime impact is a lot less.
It's a big "IF" above, but that is probably the conversation we should be having.
Edited by TheOrangePeril on Wednesday 21st October 17:31
On a totally different note, the car looks like a lot of fun with some minor downsides (parking in ncp car park anyone?).
What made me laugh most was the underbody cameras. Who goes off-roading on perfectly cleaned and dry surfaces? The cameras may continue to work for a long time, but you won't be seeing anything other than dirt or mud after the first minute off-road...
What made me laugh most was the underbody cameras. Who goes off-roading on perfectly cleaned and dry surfaces? The cameras may continue to work for a long time, but you won't be seeing anything other than dirt or mud after the first minute off-road...
sisu said:
More is more. I love how american and British 4x4s (landi, grenadier) are going down a road of super sizing everything.
Why do the Americans always want to remove doors, roofs and panels off road. You get sunburnt, dust, mud, mosquitos and rain come in. So everything needs to be in sealed bags.
I have a Jeep I keep in Arizona and it becomes very obvious why you would take all the stuff off. Desert..almost no flying insects, hat,SPF60. No rain. Dust? Sure..just hose the thing down. In a bone dry atmosphere in the cooler seasons the feeling of clean, dry fresh air is very addictive...just need to watch the cactus.Why do the Americans always want to remove doors, roofs and panels off road. You get sunburnt, dust, mud, mosquitos and rain come in. So everything needs to be in sealed bags.
PH article said:
Back on roads, a Super Cruise system is said to enable hands free driving on certain highways. There’s an illustration on Hummer's site to back up the claims that this is proper hands-off stuff
Super Cruise is in use today and has been available on Cadillac vehicles for years.It functions on more than 200,000 miles of highways in the US.
Industry pundits have ranked it as "better" or more advanced than Tesla Autopilot.
Super Cruise and related links have been posted to PH in the past.
louiebaby said:
GroundEffect said:
What about the energy that goes in to making a regular powertrain, particularly one that a Hummer-sized vehicle would have? Lots of Steel & Aluminium...
And if I remember correctly, the Hummer H2 did around 10mpg...
As you say, let's compare like for like.
It would be great to see some kind of measure of the environmental impact of a new vehicle, but it's probably not going to happen. To have it standardised across the motor industry would be even more tricky.And if I remember correctly, the Hummer H2 did around 10mpg...
As you say, let's compare like for like.
I'd love to know how many miles I can drive a 5 year old Cayenne Turbo that costs £35k, before I've even caught up with the environmental impact of making a £35k Kia e-Niro, for example. (Clearly I'd also have to consider the running costs too, which would differ somewhat.)
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