RE: Lotus gears up for new sports car launch

[giveitfish]

Sadly you’ve just articulated exactly why the Elise will die soon.

It’s impossible to build cheaply and there are enough out there that nearly everyone who wants and can afford one already has one.

It’s also very hard to differentiate the new cars from the old ones, so it’s hard to drive new sales vs second hand, hence second hand prices being so high and new sales so slow.

That’s not a good recipe for making money as a manufacturer unless you do it in very low volume like Caterham.

[bcr5784]

SidewaysSi said:

That's your view and take on it but we are all different. I have done a Euro hoon in my S1 Elise with straight cut gears and 340R ratios. No air con either of course. Just got some decent headphones, packed light and I was a very happy man indeed.

Ok, let me put it differently. The vast majority of those in the market for a sports car would not regard the Elise as an allrounder even without straight cut gears. The fact that I have dailied a Caterham sans roof or toured Europe with my pregnant wife on the back of a motorbike is irrelevant. Most people wouldn't. If you want Lotus to thrive (I certainly do) it has to appeal to a wider audience - not just you or I. I personally much prefer an Evora to a Cayman or 911 - but I'm well aware of why most people take a different view.

Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 24th January 08:47

[DonkeyApple]

rockin said:

DonkeyApple said:

In reality they've been aiming low for decades. You can't sell a few hundred cars at those incredibly low prices and make money. Their entire problem is that they've focussed on ultra cheap and ultra low volume.

Let's have a look at some of these ultra cheap Lotus cars,

Base MX5 - £23,550
Base Elise - £44,640
Base F-type - £54,510
Base Exige - £59,600
Base Evora - £82,900

There must be some part of the word "cheap" that I've failed to understand.



Well, either that or the problem simply isn't the price - it's lack of sales.

The problem is all price and image. There's no shortage of buyers on the planet with huge sums of money to throw at what they want to own and be associated with and there are ten to hundred times more people able to rent objects they wish to be associated with.

The core issue is that no one wishes to be associated with the Lotus brand because they are cheap and non aspirational. Purely as a result of decades of incompetent management pitching the product at the bottom of the market and to an ever dwindling number of niche enthusiasts and their dwindling purchasing power.

You can't hand build cars, then sell them in minuscule numbers to a tiny price that has no viable margins.

Again, as seennin this thread not only do people automatically compare the halo Lotus to a generic Porsche but they then compare the base product to a mass produced Japanese lady wagon that costs half as much.

It's the entire modern perception of the brand that is wrong. That in turn means the products are too cheap for what they are and the management have then made them look even cheaper visually. There isn't a single Lotus product that looks more expensive than it is. They all look cheaper than they actually cost, the whole world thinks the brand is cheap and the management have spent years pitching their products at the wrong customers and wrong competition.

To repeat the massively over used PH comment, Chapman would never have done what the subsequent managers have done. He had the belief in his brand and himself to push his products beyond their natural positions. He understood the competition he needed to be up against with his products in order for them to look the bargain of the century by comparison and he understood what brands to associate his products with. He knew he needed an Italian designer for his halo car because he knew who his competition was. It wasn't in Germany. The anthisis of the hopeless, socially inept actuaries who have run the car business ever since.

Chapman sold something like 11,000 Esprits over 28 years? What's that,something like 350-400 cars a year when crudely averaged? Conversely, the Evora has been on sale during one of the most enormous eras of rampant consumer spending, unfettered consumer borrowing, the most insane period of consumer excess of all time, globally! Not just like little economic booms of old that we're just in the US and Europe and only benefitted a few million people but a massive, staggering expansion of wealth and spending for hundreds of millions across the globe and Lotus haven't even been able to outsell their previous halo model from decades ago.

Why? Because they've made the brand dull, boring, uninspiring, non aspirational. They've made the car look cheaper than it is. And then the final nail in the coffin, they went and pitched it against a competitor that everyone on the planet can afford so no one needs to look elsewhere.

The Evija is a brief and narrow opportunity to reverse some of that. Sure, no one will ever see one and no one will ever drive one beyond the first weekend showing it off to the lads before getting the next trinket but for a brief moment it will be an expensive and good looking object in magazine covers and will carry a Lotus badge.

It's a tiny opportunity to launch a normal car that looks more expensive than it is and is aimed at kit twice its price.

Will they seize that opportunity? Probably not. The odds are it'll be another cheap looking thing aimed at a competitor no one struggles to buy if they aspire to it, targeting a consumer who can't afford it.

2008 they launched a car good enough to go after the top of the market in the driving stakes. They then clothed it and pitched to go after the de facto entry level, mass produced premium sports car where there were no customers for their brand. In 2021 will they have the courage and belief in their own brand to do what they need to do?

Once again, as fans of the brand we can only hope that the reign of terror at the hands of the fullest and least inspiring people in the automotive industry is brought to a close and Lotus becomes free from the shackles of insipidness.

[saaby93]

DonkeyApple said:

There isn't a single Lotus product that looks more expensive than it is.

nah- ask someone standing admiring one and they'll usually attribute a price tag higher than it is

[highway]

2008 they launched a car good enough to go after the top of the market in the driving stakes. They then clothed it and pitched to go after the de facto entry level, mass produced premium sports car where there were no customers for their brand. In 2021 will they have the courage and belief in their own brand to do what they need to do?

What car was that then? I must have missed it.

[DonkeyApple]

saaby93 said:

DonkeyApple said:

There isn't a single Lotus product that looks more expensive than it is.

nah- ask someone standing admiring one and they'll usually attribute a price tag higher than it is

People who aren't in the market to buy such cars.

It's sadly a car that hasn't sold at all well during an era when vast numbers of people around the globe have been cripplingly themselves with debt to acquire more expensive chattels. That's the sad truth supported by enormous amounts of factual data.

The new car needs to be seen as the half price, bargain McLaren, Lamborghini, Ferrari and ditch the MX5 & Porsche targets that even PHers who know about cars make.

[SidewaysSi]

bcr5784 said:

SidewaysSi said:

That's your view and take on it but we are all different. I have done a Euro hoon in my S1 Elise with straight cut gears and 340R ratios. No air con either of course. Just got some decent headphones, packed light and I was a very happy man indeed.

Ok, let me put it differently. The vast majority of those in the market for a sports car would not regard the Elise as an allrounder even without straight cut gears. The fact that I have dailied a Caterham sans roof or toured Europe with my pregnant wife on the back of a motorbike is irrelevant. Most people wouldn't. If you want Lotus to thrive (I certainly do) it has to appeal to a wider audience - not just you or I. I personally much prefer an Evora to a Cayman or 911 - but I'm well aware of why most people take a different view.

Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 24th January 08:47

I agree with you but my comments were aimed at those on this site i.e. the enthusiast driver, rather than the "vast majority". Though it is questionable if there is any difference these days..

[DMZ]

DonkeyApple, seeing as you typed all that just to have someone nitpicking some minor point, let me just say, well analysed.

I think the frustrating thing is that dull ste sells as a result of the reality that you paint. You can just look at Porsche's evolution of late for proof of that. But seeing as I'm not a shareholder of Lotus, I'm not sure this actually matters (to me). If I can buy an older Elise and it holds its value or maybe even goes up in value, it doesn't sound like a tragedy exactly. I've come to realise that all the exciting/fun stuff lives in the past now with a small number of exceptions. I'd be surprised if Lotus can carve out an exciting niche in all of this and make money because everything is conspiring against that/them at the moment.

[Lee Jones Jnr]

saaby93 said:

nah- ask someone standing admiring one and they'll usually attribute a price tag higher than it is

[DonkeyApple]

SidewaysSi said:

I agree with you but my comments were aimed at those on this site i.e. the enthusiast driver, rather than the "vast majority". Though it is questionable if there is any difference these days..

A subsection of the 'enthusiast driver' as defined by a niche set of criteria that attempt to define all those outside of these criteria to be 'non enthusiasts'. A bit like an extremist cult within a wider religion.

One of the issues with that niche within a niche is that the majority of members require the product to be either under £25k or over £250k. Not an area that the Lotus brand inhabits.

They need far higher volumes to be profitable as a car manufacturer, they keep investing in facilities for volumes that never appear. And they never appear because they are trying to sell the wrong product to the wrong people.

If the new car succeeds it will be because they have broken that spell.

[bcr5784]

Seems people are unnecessarily pessimistic. In recent years Lotus didn't have the budget to do anything new. Now they have I don't see why they can't do something which is both interesting and appealing to a wider market. The A110 and GR Yaris are exciting (imo) and show that you don't have to follow the herd to produce something that sells in sensible quantities.

[CABC]

i'd agree with nearly all of DA's points. i would add that the car market is much different to what it was in the middle to late 20th century.
- cars have a different aspirational dynamic now. they are no longer a passport to freedom, and the thrill of the open road appeals to a smaller number.
- regulation has all but killed lightweights
- economics mean break even points are much higher. (ironic as manufacturing and materials improvements mean we can make better for less).
- the hot hatch did so much, and yet maybe it killed the sports car? So many happy getting 80% of what a sports cars does and not caring about the last 20%, especially if it's actually faster.

in other words the demand and ability to release another Elise is gone.

[DonkeyApple]

CABC said:

i'd agree with nearly all of DA's points. i would add that the car market is much different to what it was in the middle to late 20th century.
- cars have a different aspirational dynamic now. they are no longer a passport to freedom, and the thrill of the open road appeals to a smaller number.
- regulation has all but killed lightweights
- economics mean break even points are much higher. (ironic as manufacturing and materials improvements mean we can make better for less).
- the hot hatch did so much, and yet maybe it killed the sports car? So many happy getting 80% of what a sports cars does and not caring about the last 20%, especially if it's actually faster.

in other words the demand and ability to release another Elise is gone.

Speed is ubiquitous, as you say, no longer the preserve of the sports car. You can essentially buy a van that will take your whole family, a dog and some bikes and drive quicker on the roads than most super cars. I think you're right that hatchbacks started it. Lotus showed how fast you can make an executive coat hanger salesman's car go, Audi did it with a family estate and dog carrier and Porsche showed how fast a van can be.

On top of that people realised that spending all their liesure time in a shopping complex was infinitely more exciting and visceral than heading out in the open road.

The credit card killed the sports car in terms of volumes.

But the same economic rules apply that have always applied. Human science doesn't change. But when the world is awash with cash those drivers get turbo charged. There's absolutely no reason why Lotus can't deliver that product for those people. They missed in 2008 but they've had over a decade to work out why and fix it. And the fact that they decided to sell a few £2m cars hopefully shows that they do indeed get it and the next car will be greater than the sum of its parts.

Your product needs to look more expensive than it is and you need to appeal to the aspirational consumer as they are the legion that exist at the £100k mark. The product has to overtly add not subtract.

[Cold]

In other words, he was right all along so bring back our Dany.

And his fabulous hair.

[CABC]

DonkeyApple said:

But the same economic rules apply that have always applied. Human science doesn't change. But when the world is awash with cash those drivers get turbo charged. There's absolutely no reason why Lotus can't deliver that product for those people. They missed in 2008 but they've had over a decade to work out why and fix it. And the fact that they decided to sell a few £2m cars hopefully shows that they do indeed get it and the next car will be greater than the sum of its parts.

Your product needs to look more expensive than it is and you need to appeal to the aspirational consumer as they are the legion that exist at the £100k mark. The product has to overtly add not subtract.

from the business side i totally agree. it's only the unrealistic driver in me that hopes for an 850kg, narrow, stripped out car.
it's also true that people like Chapman and Jobs lead, and not follow. (whatever happened to Apple? i feel trapped in that ecosystem rather than a happy member). Chapman would have looked at reality of SUVs and EVs and led the way for those wanting something at the vanguard of tech.

Beyond the UK i'm sure Geely will focus on the F1 heritage and give it a good dose of bling. and maybe a really big grill...
to a degree cars are giffen goods, (though they should be reliable as well).

[anonymous-user]

Cold said:

...bring back our Dany. And his fabulous hair.

Hair today, gone tomorrow.

Now then - how about a Swizz Beatz edition for this new car? Newly appointed "Lotus VP Of Creative Design & Global Marketing", Swizz Beatz was excited to reveal the special edition Evora in person,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnpPsyp7G4o

That's what I call real Lotus heritage.

[DonkeyApple]

Cold said:

In other words, he was right all along so bring back our Dany.

And his fabulous hair.

Right idea, executed in a really bad way. Brian May!!!! Swiss Beeet!!!

[Steve loves Esprit]

rockin said:

Hair today, gone tomorrow.

Now then - how about a Swizz Beatz edition for this new car? Newly appointed "Lotus VP Of Creative Design & Global Marketing", Swizz Beatz was excited to reveal the special edition Evora in person,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnpPsyp7G4o

That's what I call real Lotus heritage.

Hi guys

As mentioned in my previous comments, I am old fashioned and handle Lotus like an anorak.
Thanks to that clip I was reminded of that terrible time: Dany Bahar was a conman like Romano Artioli and John DeLorean before.
One of the tragic is that Lotus Cars has not the power to survive every decade a new fraudster.
By the way, almost all comments here written show a quite good picture of the troubles Lotus is in.
I doubt someone of the new Lotus guys is reading this. The Ideas and solutions are there, but ignorance is overwhelmingly.
Sorry, no new Lotus for me. They anyway trashed all their returns on silly marketing since the Dany Bahar.

Very briefly my contribution to the topic:
The right car at the right time was the concept M250 (missed opportunity)
Evora, not as good as a M250 but with potential. Too much marketing vs. quality.
Bahar wanted to challenge Porsche and Ferrari not the enthusiasts.
Keep it with a standard engine, not charged one (saves money and components) Remember Maserati3200GT (twin turbo cool, but the successor is better)
To me the Evija is a complete nuisance.

How about engineering: simple intelligence vs. complex idiocy

Finally
Gordon Murry has a new TVR design. The T.50 will be available in a junior platform for the automotive industry.
If Lotus is too snobby to purchase quality from him, then please copy it for god’s sake.
In my opinion Lotus should follow their history:
A mature sports car (Esprit) and a junior car (Elan/ Elise). Don’t use same platform and save money to the point, where the customer sees in the show room no divergences anymore.
How about the big car with a composite centre structure? Aluminium boxes front and rear.
The junior car like Gordon Murry designed it.
And put some decent unfancy engine in it. The car handling will do the trick.

My opinion about Lotus is that the company lived already too many lives….

[DonkeyApple]

CABC said:

from the business side i totally agree. it's only the unrealistic driver in me that hopes for an 850kg, narrow, stripped out car.
it's also true that people like Chapman and Jobs lead, and not follow. (whatever happened to Apple? i feel trapped in that ecosystem rather than a happy member). Chapman would have looked at reality of SUVs and EVs and led the way for those wanting something at the vanguard of tech.

Beyond the UK i'm sure Geely will focus on the F1 heritage and give it a good dose of bling. and maybe a really big grill...
to a degree cars are giffen goods, (though they should be reliable as well).

Yup. Chapman would have spotted the SUV market at the outset, realised it no longer had anything to do with the 4x4 off-road segment, have seen the vast amounts of consumer cash pouring in, salivated over the two tonne mass of the things and gone to town on someone's fat, heavy, slow product a long time ago.

[CABC]

DonkeyApple said:

Yup. Chapman would have spotted the SUV market at the outset, realised it no longer had anything to do with the 4x4 off-road segment, have seen the vast amounts of consumer cash pouring in, salivated over the two tonne mass of the things and gone to town on someone's fat, heavy, slow product a long time ago.

behold the Lotus Frontera.