ANPR - Have Your Say

ANPR - Have Your Say

Author
Discussion

bigothunter

1,005 posts

25 months

Thursday 4th March
quotequote all
saaby93 said:
Unfortunately human behaviour doesnt work like that....
A normal person will feel higher speeds are more risky so be more aware and drive more safely and end up driving where they feel safest.
Same for pedestrians - theyre a lot more careful on higher speed roads than lower speed ones.
How many times has a new 20mph limit been followed by someone being run over by a bus?

Hence putting a lower speed limit on a road doesnt always make it safer.
An 80mph limit on motorwyas might be safer than 70
Theyve already realised that road works speed limits can be too low - people pay less attention etc.

It's not as straightforward as you might think
Hence if someone asks for a lower speed limit ' to improve safety' you'll notice it wont happen straight away if at all.
Actually I agree with your line of argument - treat people like children and they will end up acting like them. But that's not today's philosophy where negative policies dominate in support of the sacrosanct 'safety' campaign.

I have searched for data which supports higher speeds being safer but can't find anything. Unfortunately the reference you provided didn't support that claim either. Do you have anything else please?

Pixelpeep Z4

6,513 posts

107 months

Thursday 4th March
quotequote all
Its like those trials they were doing in city centres. They took all traffic lights and crossings out, and made everything paved but still allowing cars.

Pedestrians and drivers alike were crawling around being really cautious !

saaby93

28,123 posts

143 months

Thursday 4th March
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
I have searched for data which supports higher speeds being safer but can't find anything. Unfortunately the reference you provided didn't support that claim either. Do you have anything else please?
ah it didnt say that - dont jump to conclusions
All it says is there's an optimum safe speed ( and speed limit) for each type of road.
If you choose the wrong one the stats can go the wrong way. - hence whey 20 limits which everyone thought would be safe still have accidents if in the wrong place.
The government guidance is obviously aware of it so you shouldnt get say blanket 20 limits on 30 roads.
However........

AmyRichardson

130 posts

7 months

Thursday 4th March
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
saaby93 said:
Unfortunately human behaviour doesnt work like that....
A normal person will feel higher speeds are more risky so be more aware and drive more safely and end up driving where they feel safest.
Same for pedestrians - theyre a lot more careful on higher speed roads than lower speed ones.
How many times has a new 20mph limit been followed by someone being run over by a bus?

Hence putting a lower speed limit on a road doesnt always make it safer.
An 80mph limit on motorwyas might be safer than 70
Theyve already realised that road works speed limits can be too low - people pay less attention etc.

It's not as straightforward as you might think
Hence if someone asks for a lower speed limit ' to improve safety' you'll notice it wont happen straight away if at all.
Actually I agree with your line of argument - treat people like children and they will end up acting like them. But that's not today's philosophy where negative policies dominate in support of the sacrosanct 'safety' campaign.

I have searched for data which supports higher speeds being safer but can't find anything. Unfortunately the reference you provided didn't support that claim either. Do you have anything else please?
It's an appealing thought but I'm not sure it's a primary factor; where the road-safety effects of reduced speed limits have been studied at any scale the results have universally spanned from (in ultra-layman terms) “statistically unclear but favouring reduced speed” to “favouring reduced speed, no question.”

Conversely, I can’t remember ever seeing statistical evidence for an increased speed limit having reduced accidents - or evidence of a reduced speed-limit increasing accidents.

We can breezily hypothesise about the potential impact of the psychological factors at play (and doubtless they run both ways) until the cows come home, but it seems that they’re gravy to the meat that’s the dumb physics of a vehicle going faster…


saaby93

28,123 posts

143 months

Thursday 4th March
quotequote all
AmyRichardson said:
It's an appealing thought but I'm not sure it's a primary factor; where the road-safety effects of reduced speed limits have been studied at any scale the results have universally spanned from (in ultra-layman terms) “statistically unclear but favouring reduced speed” to “favouring reduced speed, no question.”
Where are these reports wink

AmyRichardson said:
Conversely, I can’t remember ever seeing statistical evidence for an increased speed limit having reduced accidents - or evidence of a reduced speed-limit increasing accidents.
they'll be implemented quietly wink

Look at the speed limit proposals for motorway road works as an example





AmyRichardson

130 posts

7 months

Thursday 4th March
quotequote all
saaby93 said:
AmyRichardson said:
It's an appealing thought but I'm not sure it's a primary factor; where the road-safety effects of reduced speed limits have been studied at any scale the results have universally spanned from (in ultra-layman terms) “statistically unclear but favouring reduced speed” to “favouring reduced speed, no question.”
Where are these reports wink

AmyRichardson said:
Conversely, I can’t remember ever seeing statistical evidence for an increased speed limit having reduced accidents - or evidence of a reduced speed-limit increasing accidents.
they'll be implemented quietly wink

Look at the speed limit proposals for motorway road works as an example
I won't give links but the Begian govt. did a road safety review following a wide ranging reduction of limits (90kph to 70kph - a bit like the UK taking a lot of NSL down to 45mph) in the early 2000s and Toronto city authority did a broad study of 30kph to 20kph reductions in the mid-2010s (which included controls, which is nice...) Both seems to support reduced speed limits.

The Nilsson power rule (on a given piece of road an increase in speed will lead to increased fatalities to the 4th power, increased serious injuries to the 3rd power and casualty crashes to the 2nd) has been around for ever, I think it's been poo-poo'd for urban roads but whenever it gets tested it still seems an okay guide for rural/highway situations. This concerns injury rather than the raw number of accidents, but then they're the ones we're actually concerned about.

bigothunter

1,005 posts

25 months

Thursday 4th March
quotequote all
saaby93 said:
AmyRichardson said:
Conversely, I can’t remember ever seeing statistical evidence for an increased speed limit having reduced accidents - or evidence of a reduced speed-limit increasing accidents.
they'll be implemented quietly wink

Look at the speed limit proposals for motorway road works as an example
I have driven through a stretch of this 60mph roadwork trial and it worked extremely well, as the speed felt appropriate. Highways England have approved this enlightened change:

https://www.bewiser.co.uk/news/driving-laws/highwa...


Truck speed limits (over 7500kg) on single and dual carriageways were raised by 10mph back in 2015 without any adverse effects on safety or emissions. Amusingly they cannot drive at legal limit of 60mph due to 56mph hard limiters. Vans and trucks between 3500kg and 7500kg lose 14mph on motorways because legally they an do 70mph but are hobbled to 56mph.

https://uk.motor1.com/news/433563/hgv-speed-limit-...


These enlightened positive moves must be implemented covertly so that sensitive souls (such as Brake or Green Party) are not provoked into hysteria.

But 60mph through motorway roadworks highlights a glaring anomaly. Why do we tolerate 70mph blanket restriction when 80mph (or more) is accepted across Europe? Maybe that is a step too far for us Brits irked

Aitch H

163 posts

37 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
ddom said:
Because it’s fk all to do with safety, and everything to do with revenue.
Yes well aware of that, that was exactly the point I was making on page 14 above your answer

Pan Pan Pan

7,762 posts

76 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
saaby93 said:
AmyRichardson said:
Conversely, I can’t remember ever seeing statistical evidence for an increased speed limit having reduced accidents - or evidence of a reduced speed-limit increasing accidents.
they'll be implemented quietly wink

Look at the speed limit proposals for motorway road works as an example
I have driven through a stretch of this 60mph roadwork trial and it worked extremely well, as the speed felt appropriate. Highways England have approved this enlightened change:

https://www.bewiser.co.uk/news/driving-laws/highwa...


Truck speed limits (over 7500kg) on single and dual carriageways were raised by 10mph back in 2015 without any adverse effects on safety or emissions. Amusingly they cannot drive at legal limit of 60mph due to 56mph hard limiters. Vans and trucks between 3500kg and 7500kg lose 14mph on motorways because legally they an do 70mph but are hobbled to 56mph.

https://uk.motor1.com/news/433563/hgv-speed-limit-...


These enlightened positive moves must be implemented covertly so that sensitive souls (such as Brake or Green Party) are not provoked into hysteria.

But 60mph through motorway roadworks highlights a glaring anomaly. Why do we tolerate 70mph blanket restriction when 80mph (or more) is accepted across Europe? Maybe that is a step too far for us Brits irked
I suspect that quite a few motorists already tend to do 80 on UK motorways anyway.
But it might also be true to say that traffic densities on UK motorways are generally a lot higher, which might be why UK roads authorities are less inclined to harmonize UK speed limits, with those used on the continent ?

bigothunter

1,005 posts

25 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
Pan Pan Pan said:
I suspect that quite a few motorists already tend to do 80 on UK motorways anyway.
But it might also be true to say that traffic densities on UK motorways are generally a lot higher, which might be why UK roads authorities are less inclined to harmonize UK speed limits, with those used on the continent ?
11% of motorists travelled at or above 80mph on motorways in 2018. Passing the prolific speed cameras at those speeds would be unwise. From 2022 in a new car, it's likely to be uncomfortable too.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...


Pixelpeep Z4

6,513 posts

107 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
11% of motorists travelled at or above 80mph on motorways in 2018. Passing the prolific speed cameras at those speeds would be unwise. From 2022 in a new car, it's likely to be uncomfortable too.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Did i read that right, only 2.4% of all road accidents were caused by speeding in 2018 ?

Countdown

30,435 posts

161 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
Pixelpeep Z4 said:
bigothunter said:
11% of motorists travelled at or above 80mph on motorways in 2018. Passing the prolific speed cameras at those speeds would be unwise. From 2022 in a new car, it's likely to be uncomfortable too.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Did i read that right, only 2.4% of all road accidents were caused by speeding in 2018 ?
Probably because of all the speed cameras.....

bigothunter

1,005 posts

25 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Pixelpeep Z4 said:
bigothunter said:
11% of motorists travelled at or above 80mph on motorways in 2018. Passing the prolific speed cameras at those speeds would be unwise. From 2022 in a new car, it's likely to be uncomfortable too.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Did i read that right, only 2.4% of all road accidents were caused by speeding in 2018 ?
Probably because of all the speed cameras.....
Try reading the government report. It will help you to make valid statements.

bigothunter

1,005 posts

25 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
Pixelpeep Z4 said:
bigothunter said:
11% of motorists travelled at or above 80mph on motorways in 2018. Passing the prolific speed cameras at those speeds would be unwise. From 2022 in a new car, it's likely to be uncomfortable too.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Did i read that right, only 2.4% of all road accidents were caused by speeding in 2018 ?
Yes that's about right yes Despite 46% of cars exceeding 70mph motorway limit and 52% breaking the 30mph limit. That's the logic (excuse?) behind speed cameras and strictly enforcing unrealistically low limits.

When you can influence a 2.4% causal factor, why bother with the other 97.6% ?

Chris32345

1,460 posts

27 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
I'd like to see a lot roadside checkpoint type things where they pull a bunch of random cars over through the day and do a quick check on plates bins numbers and drivers details



Rather then waiting for them all to be pulled over for something before they get found out

vonhosen

37,386 posts

182 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
Pixelpeep Z4 said:
bigothunter said:
11% of motorists travelled at or above 80mph on motorways in 2018. Passing the prolific speed cameras at those speeds would be unwise. From 2022 in a new car, it's likely to be uncomfortable too.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Did i read that right, only 2.4% of all road accidents were caused by speeding in 2018 ?
Yes that's about right yes Despite 46% of cars exceeding 70mph motorway limit and 52% breaking the 30mph limit. That's the logic (excuse?) behind speed cameras and strictly enforcing unrealistically low limits.

When you can influence a 2.4% causal factor, why bother with the other 97.6% ?
Strictly enforced?
10%+2mph over the limit before any likely action at all & even more for than that for prosecutions.
Couple that with only a small percentage of total transgressions detected.

bigothunter

1,005 posts

25 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
Strictly enforced?
10%+2mph over the limit before any likely action at all & even more for than that for prosecutions.
Couple that with only a small percentage of total transgressions detected.
Point taken smile

What are your views on soft speed limiters scheduled for 2022? Some contributors maintain this proposal has been dropped but I can find no evidence of that.

vonhosen

37,386 posts

182 months

Friday 5th March
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
vonhosen said:
Strictly enforced?
10%+2mph over the limit before any likely action at all & even more for than that for prosecutions.
Couple that with only a small percentage of total transgressions detected.
Point taken smile

What are your views on soft speed limiters scheduled for 2022? Some contributors maintain this proposal has been dropped but I can find no evidence of that.
Haven't given them a second thought.

bigothunter

1,005 posts

25 months

Saturday 6th March
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
bigothunter said:
vonhosen said:
Strictly enforced?
10%+2mph over the limit before any likely action at all & even more for than that for prosecutions.
Couple that with only a small percentage of total transgressions detected.
Point taken smile

What are your views on soft speed limiters scheduled for 2022? Some contributors maintain this proposal has been dropped but I can find no evidence of that.
Haven't given them a second thought.
Well you should. Going faster than posted limits could soon become a transgression of the past, making our low 70 motorway limit very significant.

vonhosen

37,386 posts

182 months

Saturday 6th March
quotequote all
bigothunter said:
vonhosen said:
bigothunter said:
vonhosen said:
Strictly enforced?
10%+2mph over the limit before any likely action at all & even more for than that for prosecutions.
Couple that with only a small percentage of total transgressions detected.
Point taken smile

What are your views on soft speed limiters scheduled for 2022? Some contributors maintain this proposal has been dropped but I can find no evidence of that.
Haven't given them a second thought.
Well you should. Going faster than posted limits could soon become a transgression of the past, making our low 70 motorway limit very significant.
How are soft limiters going to do that?