RE: GMA reveals 725hp T.50s 'Niki Lauda'

RE: GMA reveals 725hp T.50s 'Niki Lauda'

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Discussion

Sway

17,495 posts

157 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Baddie said:
I can’t completely decide about the T50. On the one hand some of the engineering and concept is amazing, and extrapolates from the F1. It’s also what many driving enthusiasts think they want from a car. On the other hand it is a road car that’s going to be too quick to enjoy on modern roads (is anyone going to repeat Thomas Bscher’s 200 mph commutes, or Alain de Cadenet’s cheeky run to 200 in the UK?), and a 12,000 rpm engine may not be that pleasant at pottering speeds.

To some extent it comes across as a senior engineering raging against the dying of the light. The F1 was the best because we did it that way, and this will be the best because no one else has built a car with the driver in the middle and lightweight. The F1 was not a perfect driver’s car - Martin Brundle papped himself on camera when it hit some wet leaves pottering around - and he won Le Mans in an XJR-9.

Then there’s the track version which, as others have said, seems to be contrary to Murray’s otherwise loudly stated intentions. He didn’t want to compete with others, but now the car is going into the most objective arena there is where numbers really do matter. There is at least some double-talk here.

As others have said, he could have done something different for the ultimate drivers car. He’s repeatedly said the original Lotus Elan is the best car ever, so he’s building something with 4 times the power and double the top speed. I wonder if he could have built an F1 that was more forgiving (less crashable) and had performance more useable on modern roads?
Whilst I adore both cars, I do completely agree with your points here.

Can't help but think that the same car, with less clever aero (perhaps increasing practicality in the small package), and a v6 instead of the v12 could be my ultimate dream car...

A Rocket with a roof and screen would be right up there!

Thrash1t

6 posts

68 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Needs more cowbell...

M5-911

397 posts

8 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Would be interesting to have the T50. S on a track with a Bugatti Bolide. Two marvels of engineering!

Equus

10,494 posts

64 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Baddie said:
... it comes across as a senior engineering raging against the dying of the light.
Very much this.

And for this reason, the whole T.50/T.50s project actually seems rather sad (in the genuine, melancholy sense of the word) to me.

TyrannosauRoss Lex

26,362 posts

175 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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I wonder whether, when the McLaren F1 came out, people were saying "pointless, too fast, they'll all be garage queens, on a little B road a Ford Fiesta will be more fun" etc etc.

Equus

10,494 posts

64 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
I wonder whether, when the McLaren F1 came out, people were saying "pointless, too fast, they'll all be garage queens, on a little B road a Ford Fiesta will be more fun" etc etc.
To a far lesser degree, because when the McLaren F1 came out, ICE cars still had a future.

TyrannosauRoss Lex

26,362 posts

175 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Equus said:
To a far lesser degree, because when the McLaren F1 came out, ICE cars still had a future.
If that's the reason for those sort of comments I'm flummoxed, especially when one considers this is supposedly a site for those that enjoy driving and appreciate the ICE.

Baddie

444 posts

180 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Equus said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
I wonder whether, when the McLaren F1 came out, people were saying "pointless, too fast, they'll all be garage queens, on a little B road a Ford Fiesta will be more fun" etc etc.
To a far lesser degree, because when the McLaren F1 came out, ICE cars still had a future.
And, less correctly, if the driver was comfortable breaking the law it was still possible to enjoy the performance as you were far less likely to get caught - as several retrospective journalistic confessions have shown. People were routinely hitting 150-180 mph on UK roads (think Evo even took the rozzers for a ride).

Sadly, or not, that’s just not a reasonable way to enjoy road car performance anymore if you wish to keep on enjoying it. A mate had an F12 M6 for a bit, and I couldn’t enjoy the performance because it was either over too quickly or I spent two weeks not sleeping so well.

PhantomPH

3,567 posts

188 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Equus said:
To a far lesser degree, because when the McLaren F1 came out, ICE cars still had a future.
If that's the reason for those sort of comments I'm flummoxed, especially when one considers this is supposedly a site for those that enjoy driving and appreciate the ICE.
Is it, or is that just what you think it is? It's a car news site with an attached forum. Pistonhead is a moniker attached to a car lover - like 'petrolhead', isn't it? Mind you, I always used to assume the tag line "speed matters" was a play on words meaning "all matters relating to speed", whereas I get the impression that the majority of visitors think it means you HAVE to go fast...so there's every chance I am completely wrong. Ha ha.

Equus

10,494 posts

64 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
If that's the reason for those sort of comments I'm flummoxed, especially when one considers this is supposedly a site for those that enjoy driving and appreciate the ICE.
I appreciate ICE just as much as I appreciate many other forms of engineering.

Under normal circumstances, you'll frequently find me attending steam fairs and wandering round transport museums wondering over the ingenious technology.

Does that mean I'd have a premature ejaculation if Isambard Kingdom Brunel was still around and announced his intention to build the ultimate wide-gauge steam locomotive to sell to a handful of pre-selected steam enthusiasts? No: I'd take an interest, but I'd recognise that it is ultimately a pointless vanity exercise.

Edited by Equus on Tuesday 23 February 13:29

TyrannosauRoss Lex

26,362 posts

175 months

Tuesday 23rd February
quotequote all
Equus said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
If that's the reason for those sort of comments I'm flummoxed, especially when one considers this is supposedly a site for those that enjoy driving and appreciate the ICE.
I appreciate ICE just as much as I appreciate many other forms of engineering.

Under normal circumstances, you'll frequently find me attending steam fairs and wandering round transport museums wondering over the ingenious technology.

Does that mean I'd have a premature ejaculation is Isambard Kingdom Brunel was still around and announced his intention to build the ultimate wide-gauge steam locomotive to sell to a handful of pre-selected steam enthusiasts? No: I'd take an interest, but I'd recognise that it is ultimately a pointless vanity exercise.
Maybe we're different then. Going to the moon is utterly pointless. I still find it amazing it's been done though. Just because I'll never do it, never be able to afford it or whatever, I still find it incredible.

Sandpit Steve

2,413 posts

37 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Thrast said:
Needs more cowbell...
Nice reference!

subirg

635 posts

239 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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What a weapon. The ‘want’ factor for this and the regular T50 is off the scale. Great to see it become reality and hopefully it will be seen on track some day soon!

thelostboy

4,002 posts

188 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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To be honest, for me it has a whiff of an 11 year old taking a GTA V interpretation of a McLaren F1 into the Mod Shop.

It clearly draws inspiration from the McLaren, but for me doesn't have as satisfying proportions. I think it looks dated - a design from 10 years ago, or more. I think the game has moved on, purely from a design point of view.

I hope to one day hear that engine though!

wab172uk

1,798 posts

190 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Very F1 around the front.

Abomination around the rear.

Not for me, even if I could afford one.

Isebac

18 posts

1 month

Tuesday 23rd February
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Equus said:
I appreciate ICE just as much as I appreciate many other forms of engineering.

Under normal circumstances, you'll frequently find me attending steam fairs and wandering round transport museums wondering over the ingenious technology.

Does that mean I'd have a premature ejaculation if Isambard Kingdom Brunel was still around and announced his intention to build the ultimate wide-gauge steam locomotive to sell to a handful of pre-selected steam enthusiasts? No: I'd take an interest, but I'd recognise that it is ultimately a pointless vanity exercise.

Edited by Equus on Tuesday 23 February 13:29
I don't think that's an accurate analogy. Pure ICE is still by far the best way of getting performance as well as driving enjoyment. If you look at electric systems of the Holy Trinity hybrids, those were getting about 1hp per 1kg. Which is abysmal compared to a combustion engine. Electric motors themselves have a much higher power density than ICEs, but once you add batteries to have a reasonable range, either to drive around or to race, ICEs come on top. And if you subscribe to the view that lighter cars are more fun to drive, as I imagine most of here would, then it's a foregone conclusion as well. The fact that normal cars are going hybrid and electric doesn't mean it's the superior technology for everything. In fact, as far as fun driver's cars go, I would like to see any electric or hybrid car get close to what we have now in the next 15 years.

Panjy

136 posts

109 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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What an amazing car, good luck to them.

Equus

10,494 posts

64 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Isebac said:
Pure ICE is still by far the best way of getting performance as well as driving enjoyment.
We could endlessly debate the definitions of 'best' and 'driving enjoyment', but even Murray himself acknowledges (on Harry Metcalfe's video) that electric is the future.

If you ever get a chance to go to the English Lake District, take a trip on Gondola, on Coniston Water, then on one of the ICE engined passenger boats on Derwentwater. No contest over which is the nicer, but equally no contest over which is the quaint anachronism.

As Baddie said, a nat. asp. V12 can only really be regarded as an old man's last stand against the inevitable march of progress, which for someone like Murray, who was once one of the great innovators, is very sad. frown

mwstewart

6,004 posts

151 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Incredible car. This must provide the highest levels of driver engagement and emotions possible in something originating from a road car.

Edited by mwstewart on Tuesday 23 February 16:59

WCZ

8,272 posts

157 months

Tuesday 23rd February
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Max_Torque said:
As someone with a connection to this project i'll be a little bit careful with what i say at this time (tune in for the real story in about,oh, 20 years time i guess ;-) but my reservation around this car, and it's road going brother are really that is probably not actually the ultimate drivers car, but the ultimate engineers car!
what about the Caparo T1 ? that's a forgotten about marvel with insane figures and on modern tyres would presumably put in insane lap times too