RE: GMA reveals 725hp T.50s 'Niki Lauda'
Discussion
Baddie said:
I can’t completely decide about the T50. On the one hand some of the engineering and concept is amazing, and extrapolates from the F1. It’s also what many driving enthusiasts think they want from a car. On the other hand it is a road car that’s going to be too quick to enjoy on modern roads (is anyone going to repeat Thomas Bscher’s 200 mph commutes, or Alain de Cadenet’s cheeky run to 200 in the UK?), and a 12,000 rpm engine may not be that pleasant at pottering speeds.
To some extent it comes across as a senior engineering raging against the dying of the light. The F1 was the best because we did it that way, and this will be the best because no one else has built a car with the driver in the middle and lightweight. The F1 was not a perfect driver’s car - Martin Brundle papped himself on camera when it hit some wet leaves pottering around - and he won Le Mans in an XJR-9.
Then there’s the track version which, as others have said, seems to be contrary to Murray’s otherwise loudly stated intentions. He didn’t want to compete with others, but now the car is going into the most objective arena there is where numbers really do matter. There is at least some double-talk here.
As others have said, he could have done something different for the ultimate drivers car. He’s repeatedly said the original Lotus Elan is the best car ever, so he’s building something with 4 times the power and double the top speed. I wonder if he could have built an F1 that was more forgiving (less crashable) and had performance more useable on modern roads?
Whilst I adore both cars, I do completely agree with your points here. To some extent it comes across as a senior engineering raging against the dying of the light. The F1 was the best because we did it that way, and this will be the best because no one else has built a car with the driver in the middle and lightweight. The F1 was not a perfect driver’s car - Martin Brundle papped himself on camera when it hit some wet leaves pottering around - and he won Le Mans in an XJR-9.
Then there’s the track version which, as others have said, seems to be contrary to Murray’s otherwise loudly stated intentions. He didn’t want to compete with others, but now the car is going into the most objective arena there is where numbers really do matter. There is at least some double-talk here.
As others have said, he could have done something different for the ultimate drivers car. He’s repeatedly said the original Lotus Elan is the best car ever, so he’s building something with 4 times the power and double the top speed. I wonder if he could have built an F1 that was more forgiving (less crashable) and had performance more useable on modern roads?
Can't help but think that the same car, with less clever aero (perhaps increasing practicality in the small package), and a v6 instead of the v12 could be my ultimate dream car...
A Rocket with a roof and screen would be right up there!
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
I wonder whether, when the McLaren F1 came out, people were saying "pointless, too fast, they'll all be garage queens, on a little B road a Ford Fiesta will be more fun" etc etc.
To a far lesser degree, because when the McLaren F1 came out, ICE cars still had a future.Equus said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
I wonder whether, when the McLaren F1 came out, people were saying "pointless, too fast, they'll all be garage queens, on a little B road a Ford Fiesta will be more fun" etc etc.
To a far lesser degree, because when the McLaren F1 came out, ICE cars still had a future.Sadly, or not, that’s just not a reasonable way to enjoy road car performance anymore if you wish to keep on enjoying it. A mate had an F12 M6 for a bit, and I couldn’t enjoy the performance because it was either over too quickly or I spent two weeks not sleeping so well.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Equus said:
To a far lesser degree, because when the McLaren F1 came out, ICE cars still had a future.
If that's the reason for those sort of comments I'm flummoxed, especially when one considers this is supposedly a site for those that enjoy driving and appreciate the ICE. TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
If that's the reason for those sort of comments I'm flummoxed, especially when one considers this is supposedly a site for those that enjoy driving and appreciate the ICE.
I appreciate ICE just as much as I appreciate many other forms of engineering.Under normal circumstances, you'll frequently find me attending steam fairs and wandering round transport museums wondering over the ingenious technology.
Does that mean I'd have a premature ejaculation if Isambard Kingdom Brunel was still around and announced his intention to build the ultimate wide-gauge steam locomotive to sell to a handful of pre-selected steam enthusiasts? No: I'd take an interest, but I'd recognise that it is ultimately a pointless vanity exercise.
Edited by Equus on Tuesday 23 February 13:29
Equus said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
If that's the reason for those sort of comments I'm flummoxed, especially when one considers this is supposedly a site for those that enjoy driving and appreciate the ICE.
I appreciate ICE just as much as I appreciate many other forms of engineering.Under normal circumstances, you'll frequently find me attending steam fairs and wandering round transport museums wondering over the ingenious technology.
Does that mean I'd have a premature ejaculation is Isambard Kingdom Brunel was still around and announced his intention to build the ultimate wide-gauge steam locomotive to sell to a handful of pre-selected steam enthusiasts? No: I'd take an interest, but I'd recognise that it is ultimately a pointless vanity exercise.
t said:To be honest, for me it has a whiff of an 11 year old taking a GTA V interpretation of a McLaren F1 into the Mod Shop.
It clearly draws inspiration from the McLaren, but for me doesn't have as satisfying proportions. I think it looks dated - a design from 10 years ago, or more. I think the game has moved on, purely from a design point of view.
I hope to one day hear that engine though!
It clearly draws inspiration from the McLaren, but for me doesn't have as satisfying proportions. I think it looks dated - a design from 10 years ago, or more. I think the game has moved on, purely from a design point of view.
I hope to one day hear that engine though!
Equus said:
I appreciate ICE just as much as I appreciate many other forms of engineering.
Under normal circumstances, you'll frequently find me attending steam fairs and wandering round transport museums wondering over the ingenious technology.
Does that mean I'd have a premature ejaculation if Isambard Kingdom Brunel was still around and announced his intention to build the ultimate wide-gauge steam locomotive to sell to a handful of pre-selected steam enthusiasts? No: I'd take an interest, but I'd recognise that it is ultimately a pointless vanity exercise.
I don't think that's an accurate analogy. Pure ICE is still by far the best way of getting performance as well as driving enjoyment. If you look at electric systems of the Holy Trinity hybrids, those were getting about 1hp per 1kg. Which is abysmal compared to a combustion engine. Electric motors themselves have a much higher power density than ICEs, but once you add batteries to have a reasonable range, either to drive around or to race, ICEs come on top. And if you subscribe to the view that lighter cars are more fun to drive, as I imagine most of here would, then it's a foregone conclusion as well. The fact that normal cars are going hybrid and electric doesn't mean it's the superior technology for everything. In fact, as far as fun driver's cars go, I would like to see any electric or hybrid car get close to what we have now in the next 15 years.Under normal circumstances, you'll frequently find me attending steam fairs and wandering round transport museums wondering over the ingenious technology.
Does that mean I'd have a premature ejaculation if Isambard Kingdom Brunel was still around and announced his intention to build the ultimate wide-gauge steam locomotive to sell to a handful of pre-selected steam enthusiasts? No: I'd take an interest, but I'd recognise that it is ultimately a pointless vanity exercise.
Edited by Equus on Tuesday 23 February 13:29
Isebac said:
Pure ICE is still by far the best way of getting performance as well as driving enjoyment.
We could endlessly debate the definitions of 'best' and 'driving enjoyment', but even Murray himself acknowledges (on Harry Metcalfe's video) that electric is the future.If you ever get a chance to go to the English Lake District, take a trip on Gondola, on Coniston Water, then on one of the ICE engined passenger boats on Derwentwater. No contest over which is the nicer, but equally no contest over which is the quaint anachronism.
As Baddie said, a nat. asp. V12 can only really be regarded as an old man's last stand against the inevitable march of progress, which for someone like Murray, who was once one of the great innovators, is very sad.
Max_Torque said:
As someone with a connection to this project i'll be a little bit careful with what i say at this time (tune in for the real story in about,oh, 20 years time i guess ;-) but my reservation around this car, and it's road going brother are really that is probably not actually the ultimate drivers car, but the ultimate engineers car!
what about the Caparo T1 ? that's a forgotten about marvel with insane figures and on modern tyres would presumably put in insane lap times tooGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff