RE: GMA reveals 725hp T.50s 'Niki Lauda'
Discussion
Sixpackpert said:
Half way through this, highly recommended. Gordon and Harry are both brilliant at walking through the car, even virtually. Max_Torque said:
really? I have some experience in this area (having worked on a fair number of rather high performance road at track cars, like the Mclaren P1/P1GTR and race cars specifically designed for "good amateurs" such as the AMR DBR9 etc
And, i can tell you, driving a full on aero assisted car, ie one with a ratio of over 1:1 (825kg mass, 1,000 kg aero) is not something that many "good amateurs" i have ever met and seen driven quickly feel comfortable with. At that ratio, should you loss downforce for any reasons, from a hitting a bump to poor driving and touchning a kerb or having the suspension not set absolutely perfectly for the track you are on, your are off, because you are suddenly going TWICE as fast as the car could corner with purely mechanical grip. And no one gets back from there, not even the likes of Hamilton or Senna. Watch the F1 accidents, that is the level at which we are talking for a car with more than 1:1 aero assistance!
The P1 GTR was 1,455 kg mass and a maximum of around 700kg of downforce a ratio 1:0.5 and that was,ime, too much for the majority of drivers to deal with.......
The problem is, when it goes wrong, we are talking about energies that are significant, in fact, life threatening, and killing your customers is something most companies try to avoid in general.
We have been here before of course, as the short lived Caparo T1 showed, that just because you can, doesn't mean you should, and engineers can today easily build a car that is simply too much for most people
Not going to be a problem when none of these cars will see the outside of an atmospherically sealed garage.And, i can tell you, driving a full on aero assisted car, ie one with a ratio of over 1:1 (825kg mass, 1,000 kg aero) is not something that many "good amateurs" i have ever met and seen driven quickly feel comfortable with. At that ratio, should you loss downforce for any reasons, from a hitting a bump to poor driving and touchning a kerb or having the suspension not set absolutely perfectly for the track you are on, your are off, because you are suddenly going TWICE as fast as the car could corner with purely mechanical grip. And no one gets back from there, not even the likes of Hamilton or Senna. Watch the F1 accidents, that is the level at which we are talking for a car with more than 1:1 aero assistance!
The P1 GTR was 1,455 kg mass and a maximum of around 700kg of downforce a ratio 1:0.5 and that was,ime, too much for the majority of drivers to deal with.......
The problem is, when it goes wrong, we are talking about energies that are significant, in fact, life threatening, and killing your customers is something most companies try to avoid in general.
We have been here before of course, as the short lived Caparo T1 showed, that just because you can, doesn't mean you should, and engineers can today easily build a car that is simply too much for most people
590959F2-D105-4EF3-BBC4-578686E5E6FC by James Fawcett, on Flickr
88DD51F5-0405-4C64-B88D-36D4860E1108 by James Fawcett, on Flickr
Max_Torque said:
really? I have some experience in this area (having worked on a fair number of rather high performance road at track cars, like the Mclaren P1/P1GTR and race cars specifically designed for "good amateurs" such as the AMR DBR9 etc
And, i can tell you, driving a full on aero assisted car, ie one with a ratio of over 1:1 (825kg mass, 1,000 kg aero) is not something that many "good amateurs" i have ever met and seen driven quickly feel comfortable with. At that ratio, should you loss downforce for any reasons, from a hitting a bump to poor driving and touchning a kerb or having the suspension not set absolutely perfectly for the track you are on, your are off, because you are suddenly going TWICE as fast as the car could corner with purely mechanical grip. And no one gets back from there, not even the likes of Hamilton or Senna. Watch the F1 accidents, that is the level at which we are talking for a car with more than 1:1 aero assistance!
The P1 GTR was 1,455 kg mass and a maximum of around 700kg of downforce a ratio 1:0.5 and that was,ime, too much for the majority of drivers to deal with.......
The problem is, when it goes wrong, we are talking about energies that are significant, in fact, life threatening, and killing your customers is something most companies try to avoid in general.
We have been here before of course, as the short lived Caparo T1 showed, that just because you can, doesn't mean you should, and engineers can today easily build a car that is simply too much for most people
The amount of aero is not really that extreme. It's 1500kg at top speed, but "only" about 825kg at 250km/h. Also, once you include driver and some fuel, the weight of the car is gonna be closer to 1000kg. In the end, you are looking at about the same cornering Gs as a GT3 car. Which, sure, is still more than most people can handle, but as GM said, the amount of downforce is adjustable and the cars will be specced according to the wishes of the owner. So the downforce could be considerably less than even 825kg. And, i can tell you, driving a full on aero assisted car, ie one with a ratio of over 1:1 (825kg mass, 1,000 kg aero) is not something that many "good amateurs" i have ever met and seen driven quickly feel comfortable with. At that ratio, should you loss downforce for any reasons, from a hitting a bump to poor driving and touchning a kerb or having the suspension not set absolutely perfectly for the track you are on, your are off, because you are suddenly going TWICE as fast as the car could corner with purely mechanical grip. And no one gets back from there, not even the likes of Hamilton or Senna. Watch the F1 accidents, that is the level at which we are talking for a car with more than 1:1 aero assistance!
The P1 GTR was 1,455 kg mass and a maximum of around 700kg of downforce a ratio 1:0.5 and that was,ime, too much for the majority of drivers to deal with.......
The problem is, when it goes wrong, we are talking about energies that are significant, in fact, life threatening, and killing your customers is something most companies try to avoid in general.
We have been here before of course, as the short lived Caparo T1 showed, that just because you can, doesn't mean you should, and engineers can today easily build a car that is simply too much for most people
In any case, it's pretty in line with some other track only car variants, like the Brabham BT62 (1000kg with - claimed - 1111kg of downforce at 250km/h), the Lamborghini SCV12 (1377kg with 1200kg of downforce) or the Senna GTR (1280kg/1000kg), and less than the Bugatti Bolide (1270kg/1587kg). Of course, whether any of these will ever be driven on the limit is another question.
Escy said:
They haven't even built the test mules for the road car program yet and they announce this. Call me cynical but maybe they are in trouble and needing a load of deposits?
They announced this before they properly launched the T.50 - it's not a quick lash up with a few wings, but a changed monocoque. So they might be in trouble, I don't think they are - but they won't have announced this to grab some deposits.
Isebac said:
The amount of aero is not really that extreme. It's 1500kg at top speed, but "only" about 825kg at 250km/h. Also, once you include driver and some fuel, the weight of the car is gonna be closer to 1000kg. In the end, you are looking at about the same cornering Gs as a GT3 car. Which, sure, is still more than most people can handle, but as GM said, the amount of downforce is adjustable and the cars will be specced according to the wishes of the owner. So the downforce could be considerably less than even 825kg.
In any case, it's pretty in line with some other track only car variants, like the Brabham BT62 (1000kg with - claimed - 1111kg of downforce at 250km/h), the Lamborghini SCV12 (1377kg with 1200kg of downforce) or the Senna GTR (1280kg/1000kg), and less than the Bugatti Bolide (1270kg/1587kg). Of course, whether any of these will ever be driven on the limit is another question.
Suggest watching my video on the car where Gordon explains they dialled the downforce back from 1900kg to 1500kg max to make it more drivable for regular drivers. Also, the gearing is a lot lower than in the T.50 road car and max speed at 12,100rpm in top can be as 'low' as 170mph if you choose the low ratio gearbox.In any case, it's pretty in line with some other track only car variants, like the Brabham BT62 (1000kg with - claimed - 1111kg of downforce at 250km/h), the Lamborghini SCV12 (1377kg with 1200kg of downforce) or the Senna GTR (1280kg/1000kg), and less than the Bugatti Bolide (1270kg/1587kg). Of course, whether any of these will ever be driven on the limit is another question.
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