Downcast about EVs

Downcast about EVs

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Discussion

FA57REN

561 posts

19 months

Sunday 28th February
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tommy1973s said:
Just soulless transport pods.
Driving fun should be about driving, not about how much energy is wasted as acoustic emissions.

It's funny you bring up aviation as it is heavily regulated in terms of noise pollution. Yet people still enjoy flying. In fact the purest form.of flight, gliding, is silent!

Edited by FA57REN on Sunday 28th February 11:36

Wheel_Turned_Out

321 posts

2 months

Sunday 28th February
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I can't understand the doom and gloom about EV's, they're still such a minor number of new cars sold. It's still a decade before they're the only "new" cars available (if that even happens), and then you'll have several more decades having your pick of ICE used cars.

The people who can make an EV work for them will invest in them, and enjoy them as they're convenient and easy to live with, and the technology will keep getting better for them - why do you care what they drive? At the same time people who live in more remote areas or simply don't want an EV aren't going to be "forced" into one if they don't want one. Do you really think every one of the army of diesel hatchbacks and crossovers shlepping their way to school, work, school again, shops, then home are loving the driving dynamics and tuneful nature of their chugging fourpots?

People who still enjoy driving can have their pick of interesting cars for years to come yet, people who don't care about driving and just need personal transport now have the choice of something else. What's there to get mithered about?

austinsmirk

4,121 posts

87 months

Sunday 28th February
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Harry Flashman said:
Depends how you pay for them. I took the view that an EV was a poor outright buy as the tech is changing so fast, so for the first time ever I leased a car.

My 2020 Nissan Leaf costs me 203 a month amortised. No road tax, tiny fuel costs as I charge at home. It charges on a socket, haven't bothered with a charger as my house electric are good and plugging in overnight keeps it topped up. I am getting a charger, but if yiu have an outdoor socket, it really isn't necessary unless you use the car constantly.

Insurance is 400 a year, in London. Any newish car costs this.

Treated as a utility bill for transport, this is not expensive.
I’ve been saying this for about 4 years on here. The problem is you’re stating a coherent rationale argument backed up with facts.

I’d say most of the motoring public care not one but how their car is powered. It’s about purchase or lease cost. Then the monthly of running it.

People are still slow to work out pros of EV and reduced costs V ICE.

There are a lot of thick people out there too. I was once upgrading flats with sole electric storage heating, to gas ch. for free. Fit in a day. I couldn’t convince some people that their bills will be cheaper “ because how can they I’ll have two meters and two bills. I only have one meter now “

I worry how some people get through life.

DonkeyApple

40,656 posts

133 months

Sunday 28th February
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clockworks said:
As somebody posted earlier, it's the price premium over a similar IC car that's stopping me now.

I've only bought 2 new cars since a change of career meant giving up the company car. The two new cars were both small and quite cheap to buy. Everything else has been at least 2 years old, bought for not much more than half the original retail price.

I'm looking to replace a Skoda Superb 280 with something reasonably big, and not too slow. It just doesn't get much use. There are quite a few EVs on the market now that would be suitable for me. The range and performance issues are pretty much sorted now. The cost of buying new is just too high, around £10k more than the equivalent petrol or diesel version, and most of the older models just don't appeal.

I guess things might be different in 2 or 3 years, when more EVs are available to buy secondhand. How will prices hold up on the secondhand market? My feeling is demand will outstrip supply for quite a few years, so anything electric and remotely interesting won't depreciate as much as a similar IC car.

I just don't get the massive premium. It's like you have to pay for the batteries and other electrical gubbins, as well as the engine and gearbox that you don't get. I get that a battery pack costs £6 or £7k, and the motor/electronics add another grand or two. There's the £10k premium. The manufacturer must have saved around half that by not building the IC drivetrain though, and that cost saving isn't reflected in the retail price.

Even at a £5k premium, it would be 50,000 miles before the reduced running costs of an EV made financial sense. That's 10 years for me.
I suspect that is simply how most of us view it. I could swap the wife's runabout for a mid sized EV but it's only ten years old with 30k on the clock and plenty of life left in it. An EV would be an infinitely better product for what it is used for. But the numbers don't yet add up. A few more years wear and tear and a few more years of the electric Mini being on sale and it'll almost certainly start to add up.

My generic car is the one that gets used when I'm tired or being lazy. EV would be perfect for that. The car sits around a lot and either gets used for local journeys or big runs. It's only three years old so normally it would have at least another ten years to go. However, as the most common big run is into the centre of London I suspect that my normal time horizon will be shortened and I will look to swap it for a big hybrid as that won't impinge in any long distance usage yet mean all the local stuff is clean, cheap and easy. The hybrid Land Rover Defender would be the obvious switch as it'll just do everything without compromise.

And then there are the silly cars. They'll just stay as they are, get sold when I want and new classics bought. I don't see anything happening that will stand in the way of that in my driving lifetime, I probably only have thirty years of driving left, by which time I will have bought a flying drone and be dead at the top of a for tree somewhere.

As for current EVs, few hold any interest for me and I consider most to be a complete piss take of any ecological reasoning but no one or no rules are telling me that I must buy one so I don't care at all. I'm certainly not seeing any sane logic in getting distressed by EVs. I just want the eco twaddle and subsidies to affluent punters to come to an end as promptly as possible, for them to have done the job of pushing a commercially viable market to exist because I genuinely dislike command economics.

Quisling

539 posts

3 months

Sunday 28th February
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tommy1973s said:
Just soulless transport pods.
Are you telling me we took the UKs most popular car

A 1ltr 3 pot ford fiesta

and changed the engine to an electric motor you will of made it significantly more boring

Evanivitch

8,821 posts

86 months

Sunday 28th February
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DavidJJ said:
trickywoo said:
Prepare to be disappointed. The noise you hear now is road / tyre related which may actually get worse with heavier EVs.

If LGVs go electric it may help a bit but I’ve heard minimal talk of that.
Have an A road outside and not fussed about tyre noise, but fart-can exhausts and remaps that sound like machine guns can fk right off, so I guess that will reduce in time (unless they become a trim level too...) Obviously that will take long enough to meaningfully happen that I'll be in a home by then and/or deaf anyway sleep
I live not too far from a 30mph to NSL transition. It'll certainly make a difference.

speedking31

2,934 posts

100 months

Sunday 28th February
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MikeStroud said:
I expect EV cars will have a new set of issues but there have to be far fewer of them than you get with an ICE.
There will be fewer, but one of them will be a spinning blue circle on your display accompanied by complete inability to move off the line. Can't call the helpdesk because your phone is integrated. Car hasn't got a restart button because no manufacturer would admit that it needs one. Only thing you can do is leave the car, walk 50 m away, wait 5 minutes and then try again with your fingers crossed.

Sony can't get my TV to work reliably, so what chance a car?

CAPP0

17,631 posts

167 months

Sunday 28th February
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Crafty_ said:
Lets just hope that people who want to keep a toy/classic won't get victimised post 2030 for killing all the fluffy bunnies. Lets presume for a moment the effect those remaining cars will have on the environment will be negligible I don't think it will stop an agenda to force them off the road should politicians/green groups decide to target them - even if there are bigger fish to fry pollution wise.
Speaking as the owner of several ICE-engined vehicles, none of which I'm planning to part with any time soon, I suspect that whilst the effect we continue to create may be negligible, unfortunately we'll also be an extraordinarily easy target. 100% tax increase on petrol? Simple to implement and only us in the minority will be able to complain. Road tax at £2k? £3k? £5k? Well sir, you could always avoid that and use our helpful grant to buy a new WangChung hatchback.....

kiseca

8,854 posts

183 months

Sunday 28th February
quotequote all
For:
Instant accelerator response that no ICE can match, esp. on a standing start. I reckon a Leaf will outrun almost any petrol engined car from the traffic light to the other side of the intersection.
Torque throughout the rev range to make a big V8 feel weak
No complicated engine with hundreds of moving parts to break and service
No complicated gearbox, neither manual nor auto, with dozens of moving parts to break and service
No drony boring engine noise
Put the weight where you want it, better handling and balance potential than any ICE. All nice and low and in the middle.
No big engine or gearbox to get in the way of suspension parts - can have better suspension.
More room inside
Easier to design effective crumple zones
Cheap to run, cheap to fuel
Fewer visits to petrol / charging stations (if you're lucky)
No need for modern high bonnets to give pedestrian clearance over hard engine parts.. Potential for much sleeker looking cars (pay attention, Porsche and BMW....)
No noisy diesel taxis clattering away in the street at 6:30am waiting for a neighbour to appear, or at 11:30pm waiting for a drunk guest to appear from a neightbour's house.
No tank full of flammable fuel to cook you in a crash
A motor that is perfectly suited to driving a car. Needs no gearbox to cover for its lack of flexibility, can provide linear braking as well as acceleration, no holes in the torque curve (or tabletop, really), needs no clutch to compensate for when the car is stopped with the engine still turning but the wheels aren't.
Not wasting energy at a standstill

Against:
Heavy
Refuelling takes ages
No exciting multi-cylinder engine screaming in ecstasy
No gearbox to play with
Not a lot of choice on the market, and styling of current models is either unadventurous, wacky, or is a blob like all modern Porsches.
Not cheap
Not best for cross country trips (yet)
Battery pack that when it catches fire, can keep reigniting itself for days.
A fuel source that is not well suited for cars. It's heavy, low energy density, can't be refuelled in 5 minutes, can't be refuelled by the AA when stranded at the roadside.

For me, most of the doom and gloom of future motoring is about congested roads, safety features that take decisions away from the driver (not a bad thing, I agree, just something that makes cars less fun), self driving, automatic speed limit restricting, auto braking.... all of that is coming whether the car has an ICE motor or an electric one. It's not EV's fault.

For the rest, for me the pros outweigh the cons, and while ICE engines are well supported by infrastructure right now, I am old enough to remember, for instance, South Africa in the 1980s, before mobile phones, before satellite navigation, before motorway service stations were a thing, before there was a petrol station on every second block. If you ran out of fuel you could be stranded for hours and have no idea which way to go to find fuel or a phone. Maybe the UK was better back then, but even here I would still think that the car came first, the infrastructure built up over time to support it. It will be the same for EVs, but quicker, no doubt.

If they want to build exciting cars with electric engines, cars that are communicative, balanced, agile, ride beautifully down your favourite b-road letting you glide through the bends and warping time between them, enjoying a dab of oppo, they will do so. If they don't want to do that with electric engines, they're not going to do it much longer with petrol engines either.

If there's a market for a driver's car, whether it's EV or not, someone will build one. If driver's cars are legislated out of existence, ICE engines won't have saved them.

You lose the gearbox.. which we are anyway as nearly everything goes auto, but regardless, while some manuals are nice to use, most aren't particularly involving, and for me, having sampled electric power, they're just a reminder of the inherent weakness of ICE.

You lose the sound, but as others have said, for nearly all cars on the road now, the engine sound isn't interesting anyway. It's just a noise. Happy to go without. For me, the sound is more or less already lost. Long gone are the days when carburettors and long pauses between gear changes would produce a satisfying overrun growl that was half of the pleasure of a good sounding engine anyway. A modern V8 with almost instant auto gearchanges can't compete for complexity or variation of interesting sounds... and I remember watching the cars one year at the Italian Car Day at Brooklands. At one point Mercedes Benz World opened up their circuit to allow the cars to do some parade laps and accelerate away up the straight. A Ferrari.... F430 if I recall, maybe a 360, went howling up the road. It sounded nice, cultured, quite complex with changes to the quality of the sound as it went up the rev range, and then when he was about half way up the Countach behind opened the taps and the Ferrari couldn't be heard. And instead of this carefully engineered mix of sounds from the Ferrari, the Countach just went RAAAARG and drowned the whole lot out. Natural V12 in anger that frankly made the Ferrari sound synthetic and overly processed.

An AMG V8 sounds good on the move, but when my neighbour starts his, it sounds like he's just dumped a wheelbarrow full of scrap metal from his first floor window into a skip. And it's that way by design. Engines never used to have to clatter down the stairs on startup. To me it's like they're a great band and wrote a great song but then got Stock, Aitken and Waterman to produce the album. There's too much intent in modern engine sounds drowning out the natural quality anyway.

So for me, modern engine noise is rarely something to get excited about. It's contrived and synthetic even before they start piping crap through the speakers, and if that's how it is, may as well pipe motion sounds through the speakers of your EV and make it play whatever you want. If you want your Ferrari Energiser Bunny Sport Plus to sound like a Tie Fighter, Concorde or Saturn V rocket, at least it doesn't have to drown out an engine to do so.




Skyedriver

11,628 posts

246 months

Sunday 28th February
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Crafty_ said:
EVs are only an extension of what we have now in terms of mediocrity. The times of cars having an interesting trait or design are (mostly) behind us, cars share a lot of tech nowadays and have narrow design briefs, so they all look the same and offer more or less the same things. I agree though it feels like EV will make everything more anonymous and bland.

For people who purely use a car to get A -> B, an EV makes no difference to them, they can get to work or the shops etc just fine, so why not.

Lets just hope that people who want to keep a toy/classic won't get victimised post 2030 for killing all the fluffy bunnies. Lets presume for a moment the effect those remaining cars will have on the environment will be negligible I don't think it will stop an agenda to force them off the road should politicians/green groups decide to target them - even if there are bigger fish to fry pollution wise.

In the wider picture I think as time progresses younger people will be geniunely baffled by the concept of a car enthusiast in the latter half of the 20th century/early 21st century.
Gradually "performance" models will just become trim levels, because people won't be prepared to pay premiums for an EV with an extra n kW output.
Boggo EVs are going to be more than capable of "making progress", especially off the line due to the instant torque as we've all already seen - so what can a performance model provide ?
How long will manufacturers dump big money in to motorsports if we all end up just buying cars as white goods (or more accurately, leasing).

As much as EVs will be (are?) a tech revolution they'll be a cultural one too.

The way I see it at the moment is I'll end up in an EV but it won't interest me in the slightest and I'll just end up buying whatever does the job rather than having any interest or affection for the thing, just like the washing machine really.

Edited by Crafty_ on Saturday 27th February 22:39
pretty well agree with most of that.

SWoll

10,875 posts

222 months

Sunday 28th February
quotequote all
Skyedriver said:
Crafty_ said:
EVs are only an extension of what we have now in terms of mediocrity. The times of cars having an interesting trait or design are (mostly) behind us, cars share a lot of tech nowadays and have narrow design briefs, so they all look the same and offer more or less the same things. I agree though it feels like EV will make everything more anonymous and bland.

For people who purely use a car to get A -> B, an EV makes no difference to them, they can get to work or the shops etc just fine, so why not.

Lets just hope that people who want to keep a toy/classic won't get victimised post 2030 for killing all the fluffy bunnies. Lets presume for a moment the effect those remaining cars will have on the environment will be negligible I don't think it will stop an agenda to force them off the road should politicians/green groups decide to target them - even if there are bigger fish to fry pollution wise.

In the wider picture I think as time progresses younger people will be geniunely baffled by the concept of a car enthusiast in the latter half of the 20th century/early 21st century.
Gradually "performance" models will just become trim levels, because people won't be prepared to pay premiums for an EV with an extra n kW output.
Boggo EVs are going to be more than capable of "making progress", especially off the line due to the instant torque as we've all already seen - so what can a performance model provide ?
How long will manufacturers dump big money in to motorsports if we all end up just buying cars as white goods (or more accurately, leasing).

As much as EVs will be (are?) a tech revolution they'll be a cultural one too.

The way I see it at the moment is I'll end up in an EV but it won't interest me in the slightest and I'll just end up buying whatever does the job rather than having any interest or affection for the thing, just like the washing machine really.

Edited by Crafty_ on Saturday 27th February 22:39
pretty well agree with most of that.
As a 25+ year petrolhead I thought the same. We started off experimenting with replacing the wife's Cooper S with an i3 which was great fun and full of character (RWD, skinny tyres and real world performance to surprise many a hot hatch/sports saloon) and was so impressed decided to go for the Tesla when I had an an opportunity to change cars due to a new job as find the EV drivetrain handles all of the different requirements I thrown at it brilliantly well and is costing a a lot less than the ICE alternatives I was considering. It's also great fun as a daily and has a character all of its own.

The savings over an ICE alternative are getting squirreled away so I can pickup an utterly impractical ICE driven, weekend toy at some point and have the best of both worlds with the minimum of compromise.

I do struggle with the comments about people being unwilling to pay for additional performance. You are still talking about different motor setups (dual, tri, quad) , different suspension, different brakes, torque vectoring, RWD steer etc. so not just different kW outputs?

Max_Torque

16,403 posts

181 months

Sunday 28th February
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The EV i drive daily is probably the most fun "normal" car i've driven in the last 20 years!

Like ICE cars, some EV are more fun than others, the EV bit is practically irrelevant ime



romeodelta

573 posts

125 months

Sunday 28th February
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I went to the Australian Taycan launch this weekend and felt pretty meh.

It's a nice car, sure, but didn't give me any 'fizz'.

I didn't drive it as I had my young son with me, but the price is bonkers too.

A mate swapped his RS3 for a Model X. He loves it, but it makes no sense to me.

I think I will be an ICE guy for as long as it's viable.

Lil'RedGTO

461 posts

107 months

Monday 1st March
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I was a sad about this for a couple of years. Not so much about EVs, as I find the pioneering nature of EVs right now quite interesting, but about the fact that my life's passion (for nice-sounding petrol cars) had, it turned out, been contributing to potentially catastrophic climate change (along, it must be said, with many other human activities). No one likes to be told or realise that the thing they liked is bad for them or others.

The way I have come to terms with it is to get an EV for local duties (a Zoe, cost £7k) and start considering myself as a classic car enthusiast. I always liked classics anyway, so that's no great hardship, and truth be told most cars after about 2005 suck anyway (when EU pedestrian impact regulations came in and basically ruined front-engined car design).

I'm currently still deciding what modern classic to put in the garage, which is a fun exercise in itself, but as long as enough people make the change to EV quickly enough, then there should be room for classic car enthusiasts and their hobby to survive. Embrace EV, I say, and you can then enjoy your "classic" relatively guilt free.

SWoll

10,875 posts

222 months

Monday 1st March
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romeodelta said:
I went to the Australian Taycan launch this weekend and felt pretty meh.

It's a nice car, sure, but didn't give me any 'fizz'.

I didn't drive it as I had my young son with me, but the price is bonkers too.

A mate swapped his RS3 for a Model X. He loves it, but it makes no sense to me.

I think I will be an ICE guy for as long as it's viable.
So did you just look at it or at least get a passenger ride?

Not sure about Aus $ but in the UK the Taycan is actually cheaper than a comparable Panamera.

Taycan 4S - £83,580
Panamera 4S - £92,440

TheNewBoy

298 posts

2 months

Monday 1st March
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We are a 2 car family. When one of our large diesels die, we’ll replace it with an EV for local journeys etc.
Will keep the other for longer trips only (both get 60 mpg & £30 a year to tax)
Think i’ll lease EV though as others said. The technology is changing every 5 minutes, as not yet ‘mature’
Don’t want to be lumbered with one when / if a big improvement appears !

Limpet

4,476 posts

125 months

Monday 1st March
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kambites said:
Crafty_ said:
EVs are only an extension of what we have now in terms of mediocrity.
yes 99% of modern internal combustion engines are so utterly bland and uninspiring that I can only see an electric drive-train as a step forwards for mainstream cars.
I've been making this exact point for years.

The way people go on, you'd think every internal combustion engine was a rip snorting V8, or even a howling 6. They're not. Most internal combustion engines are bland, soulless, forgettable appliances. You certainly wouldn't miss what noise they do produce, or at least I wouldn't.

off_again

9,809 posts

198 months

Monday 1st March
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I am actually quite positive on the evolution to EV's.

We have an i3 and its just one example of how things could in the future. I am not digging on the Leaf here, but it was designed as a mass market entry to the EV market and was never going to set the world alight. Until manufacturing costs come down, its still going to be a premium product for a lot of buyers. However, it did show the way. But, that was 10+ years ago and the market has evolved. Now we see a plethora of different types and design goals, so its going to be interesting to see where we end up.

However, what is more interesting to me is the vehicle dynamics thing. Its an area what has dramatically developed in the last 10 years and is almost modular these days. VW does a great job of this with common platforms all capable of addressing different markets with very different feeling driving dynamics. The Q5 and Macan share the same basic underlying chassis, but feel totally different. With EV's the opportunity to tune the driving dynamics becomes even more flexible. Want a rear drive biased mode on your 4WD EV? Yep, can do that. Want to have an ESP system that allows complete customizability on slip angles? Yep, can do that (I know its on the McLaren's today, but imagine that coming to your mid-sized hatch!).

We are seeing innovation with the Rivian truck around vehicle dynamics and EVs - tank mode, special off road modes etc. Its an interesting world. I can only imagine the vehicle dynamics teams are coming up with crazy ideas and seeing what might / could work. I just hope that they understand that turning out cheap and effective EV's is ok, but buying, ownership and driving cars is still an emotional experience and we need that going forward. An EV might not hum like a V8, but that cheap and chearful EV hatch can still be fun to drive and have character. From someone who grew up with Renault 5's, original Minis and others - its these that got a whole generation into cars. Lets bring back the fun factor, including handling and driving - and its not always about ultimate speed!

anonymous-user

18 months

Monday 1st March
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Not my cuppa tea. Very much against them and I don't like them being 'forced' on us as such.

Will happily scream past them in VTEC until petrol dries up.

Muddle238

2,434 posts

77 months

Monday 1st March
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jjwilde said:
Krikkit said:
tommy1973s said:
I'm excited about battery powered self flying personal planes alright. The excitement of being airborne, despite having no flying skills, would compensate.
Not gonna happen in your lifetime, don't get too excited.
Drones which fly people are a huge emerging industry right now, billions being invested. Could have the potential to change every day life in amazing ways.
The drone industry is certainly one to watch, but passenger-carrying drones is something that I just can’t see taking off, excuse the pun. Effectively they would be pilot-less aeroplanes, which I would argue is a poor idea, especially if there are no controls and the passenger doesn’t know how to fly.

Drones require computers to function, computers work in binary, either 1 or 0, yes or no, black or white. Flying is very rarely black or white, rather the infinite shades of grey in between. I would most certainly never set foot in a pilot-less aeroplane.