Downcast about EVs

Downcast about EVs

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Discussion

Harry Flashman

15,121 posts

206 months

Monday 1st March
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Lil'RedGTO said:
I was a sad about this for a couple of years. Not so much about EVs, as I find the pioneering nature of EVs right now quite interesting, but about the fact that my life's passion (for nice-sounding petrol cars) had, it turned out, been contributing to potentially catastrophic climate change (along, it must be said, with many other human activities). No one likes to be told or realise that the thing they liked is bad for them or others.

The way I have come to terms with it is to get an EV for local duties (a Zoe, cost £7k) and start considering myself as a classic car enthusiast. I always liked classics anyway, so that's no great hardship, and truth be told most cars after about 2005 suck anyway (when EU pedestrian impact regulations came in and basically ruined front-engined car design).

I'm currently still deciding what modern classic to put in the garage, which is a fun exercise in itself, but as long as enough people make the change to EV quickly enough, then there should be room for classic car enthusiasts and their hobby to survive. Embrace EV, I say, and you can then enjoy your "classic" relatively guilt free.
What I did, as posted earlier. One Nissan Leaf. One 2006 (ULEZ compliant, just) Maserati Gransport LE.

J4CKO

33,419 posts

164 months

Monday 1st March
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ThrottleLine30 said:
Not my cuppa tea. Very much against them and I don't like them being 'forced' on us as such.

Will happily scream past them in VTEC until petrol dries up.
Which EVs will you scream past, not many in a Honda, have you seen how fast a lot of EVs are ?



cerb4.5lee

18,467 posts

144 months

Monday 1st March
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smartypants said:
Jader1973 said:
MikeStroud said:
I will miss the sound of a V8 etc but:

1 - I am looking forward to less traffic noise as I live near an A road.
I hate to break it to you but it is likely most of what you hear actually comes from the tyres.

A Tesla passes me fairly often when I’m out with the dog. It is as noisy, if not noisier than the ICE cars that go past.
Was going to say the same thing, I live within a mile of a busy dual carriageway, it’s not the engines I hear over the fields it’s just tyre on tarmac. And that isn’t going to change at all in fact it’s worsening. Buses I agree with, they should all be electric now.

Back to the OP, I get Car magazine every month, the EV sentiment is growing but I think the days of interesting cars passed a long time ago. Well, cars that are interesting to me at least.

Edited by smartypants on Sunday 28th February 07:35
I noticed this as well when I dropped my car off for a MOT last year and I went for a walk along a busy main road. I didn't hear anyone's engine or exhaust noise and it was just the tyre noise. Electric cars will be worse in that regard because they are much heavier than their ICE equivalents too.




SWoll

10,854 posts

222 months

Monday 1st March
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cerb4.5lee said:
I noticed this as well when I dropped my car off for a MOT last year and I went for a walk along a busy main road. I didn't hear anyone's engine or exhaust noise and it was just the tyre noise. Electric cars will be worse in that regard because they are much heavier than their ICE equivalents too.
4 cylinder diesels are silent all of a sudden? i'd consider getting your hearing tested. wink

Tyre noise has more to do with tread design than vehicle weight, and as most EV's come on very efficient tyres that in many cases are fitted with acoustic sound deadening to prevent cabin intrusion due to the lack of ICE noise I doubt that will be the case.

cerb4.5lee

18,467 posts

144 months

Monday 1st March
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SWoll said:
4 cylinder diesels are silent all of a sudden? i'd consider getting your hearing tested. wink
hehe

thumbup

Pit Pony

4,200 posts

85 months

Monday 1st March
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Mr E said:
Within my lifetime kids will be amazed we let failable humans be responsible for 2 tons of metal at two miles a minute.
And more...

SWoll

10,854 posts

222 months

Monday 1st March
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cerb4.5lee said:
SWoll said:
4 cylinder diesels are silent all of a sudden? i'd consider getting your hearing tested. wink
hehe

thumbup
smile

We've found we need to be super careful with ours in car parks etc. as have had a number of people just step out in front of us due to the lack of noise at low speeds. The law has changed since and now all EV's must have a sound device fitted for speeds below 12mph in both forward and reverse. Ours was built just before the rule came in so doesn't have it.

romeodelta

571 posts

125 months

Monday 1st March
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SWoll said:
romeodelta said:
I went to the Australian Taycan launch this weekend and felt pretty meh.

It's a nice car, sure, but didn't give me any 'fizz'.

I didn't drive it as I had my young son with me, but the price is bonkers too.

A mate swapped his RS3 for a Model X. He loves it, but it makes no sense to me.

I think I will be an ICE guy for as long as it's viable.
So did you just look at it or at least get a passenger ride?

Not sure about Aus $ but in the UK the Taycan is actually cheaper than a comparable Panamera.

Taycan 4S - £83,580
Panamera 4S - £92,440
No passenger ride either, but to be honest, I'm not interested. The fact you can spec a fake noise says it all to me.

I don't know what the base list price is, but the ones in the showroom had a few options - I saw around $220k-$380k eek

To be fair, Oz does have a 33% luxury car tax, which includes the cost of options as well.

J4CKO

33,419 posts

164 months

Monday 1st March
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I think folk will forget engine noises for most cars pretty quickly as most of the engine noises are pretty average.

As has been mentioned a lot of the noises of traffic is tyres and wind noise for most cars when at speed, at idle and low speeds engine noise is the bigger component.

Most cars engine noises arent exactly nice, next doors Discovery Diesel, the four pot Merc across the road, my six cylinder sounds ok but at 6 am I could do without it.

Supercar engine noises get tiresome, used to be cool to see one or hear one but round here there are a lot of them, I was cleaning my car this afternoon and some tt in something exotic was howling up and down (in a 30) going like the clappers with it whumping on gear changes and popping and banging on the overrun. Wasn't a Hot Hatch, it was 8 or more cylinders. I think cars, strangely, despite all the legislation and filters have got noisier, especially supercars which can be from the factory obnoxiously loud.

If the EV had got developed instead of the IC I dont think we would be clamoring for someone to invent something that makes small explosions several thousand times a minute, we are kind of stuck with it but future generations arent.

Actually, be interesting to play a selection of choice engine noises to tribes who have never encountered cars before (if they still exist) and see whether its just a natural, or learnt response, whether they find it pleasant or not. My wife isnt really into cars but sometimes on hearing a big V8 remarks on how nice it sounds.




Evoluzione

5,703 posts

207 months

Monday 1st March
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craigjm said:
Are you over 40? If so then just make sure you have the ice cars you want in 2030ish and keep driving them. Fuel won’t be banned until 2050 by which time anyone born in the 70s or earlier will have hung up their driving gloves or shuffled off.
It's not a matter of banning fuel, it's a case of it not being needed therefore being scarce and not sold at all in some areas.

Terminator X

10,754 posts

168 months

Tuesday 2nd March
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tommy1973s said:
The end of ICE is a first World problem, agreed. Nonetheless, while self driving battery cars will suit many, I couldn't care less. I was reading Autocar today and lots of the coverage is EVs. I've talked myself into gloom about it.

It's like you've been buying a football magazine all your life, and then, without telling you, they convert it to golf or something. Or lacrosse. Whatever that is.

Just soulless transport pods.

I'm excited about battery powered self flying personal planes alright. The excitement of being airborne, despite having no flying skills, would compensate.

But for cars, the trend is inexorably towards ever-increasing boredom and passivity. Just sitting there, doing SFA. It'd be like if they banned skiing and made you ride up and down on the chair lifts instead. Quicker, easier, and safer - but no fun.

Sighs : )
Get over it Granddad, Miraculous Battery Improvements coming next year!

TX.

Pit Pony

4,200 posts

85 months

Tuesday 2nd March
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I have been working on.EV propoganda with my wife..
A woman that doesn't like change.
Subtle hints like "If we had an electric car, I could go into the app on your phone and warm it up for you"

And "I think work would put In a charger point so we'd hardly ever pay to charge it"

And what's the furthest we've driven in the last 10 years..

Ah. Yes Oban....yes, we'd have to stop to charge on the way..

Or just go in.the mx5 and leave the boring car at home.


Pebbles167

2,530 posts

116 months

Tuesday 2nd March
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I imagine there will always be cars for enthusiasts, electric or otherwise. Be it new from dealer or through businesses that cater to those people by selling modifications, we'll be able to have something cool.

Dreary cars have always been dreary, and will continue to be so, but anyone who says we haven't had fun cars for the last however many years needs to stop being so stubborn, and take off their rose tints.

I love the intricacies of a combustion engine, but above that, I just like car culture, and while the former may be in its twilight years, the latter still has a huge fanbase. I have hope for cars of the future.

DonkeyApple

40,633 posts

133 months

Tuesday 2nd March
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Muddle238 said:
The drone industry is certainly one to watch, but passenger-carrying drones is something that I just can’t see taking off, excuse the pun. Effectively they would be pilot-less aeroplanes, which I would argue is a poor idea, especially if there are no controls and the passenger doesn’t know how to fly.

Drones require computers to function, computers work in binary, either 1 or 0, yes or no, black or white. Flying is very rarely black or white, rather the infinite shades of grey in between. I would most certainly never set foot in a pilot-less aeroplane.
The civilian industry could always just follow the military whichbisnt exactly uncommon with tech. You strap in to your drone, wearing your morning suit, dial up a weirdo who lives in his darkened bedroom at mother's house and he will pilot you from your driveway to the wedding, whereupon he will simply release you from a thousand feet on top of the bride and groom and their family.

Drones capable of carrying humans is one of those things that in paper instantly looks like the greatest invention of our lifetimes. Who wouldn't want to nip from their house to the pub, zipping between trees and buildings etc but the reality is not that at all. Just look at the legislation for drones that aren't carrying people.

However, if we think one step further, all the tech already exists to have drones capable of carrying humans. It's one of very many great bits of tech that could be delivered yesterday if it weren't for one single issue. That being energy storage.

The inability for drones to efficiently carry humans is simply down to the same problem that is stopping EVs from simply eradicating ICE cars andnin reality stopping millions and millions of advances and retarding the whole of humanity. We don't have any form of efficient energy storage. It's arguably the single largest issue facing humanity, not just in blocking it from moving forward but in creating vast amounts of excess pollution.

DonkeyApple

40,633 posts

133 months

Tuesday 2nd March
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
smartypants said:
Jader1973 said:
MikeStroud said:
I will miss the sound of a V8 etc but:

1 - I am looking forward to less traffic noise as I live near an A road.
I hate to break it to you but it is likely most of what you hear actually comes from the tyres.

A Tesla passes me fairly often when I’m out with the dog. It is as noisy, if not noisier than the ICE cars that go past.
Was going to say the same thing, I live within a mile of a busy dual carriageway, it’s not the engines I hear over the fields it’s just tyre on tarmac. And that isn’t going to change at all in fact it’s worsening. Buses I agree with, they should all be electric now.

Back to the OP, I get Car magazine every month, the EV sentiment is growing but I think the days of interesting cars passed a long time ago. Well, cars that are interesting to me at least.

Edited by smartypants on Sunday 28th February 07:35
I noticed this as well when I dropped my car off for a MOT last year and I went for a walk along a busy main road. I didn't hear anyone's engine or exhaust noise and it was just the tyre noise. Electric cars will be worse in that regard because they are much heavier than their ICE equivalents too.
I wonder how many people just don't realise that a huge amount of traffic noise emanates from tyres?

It doesn't detract from the benefit of dropping engine emissions as much as possible but it's important to recognise that it is a very significant contributor to urban noise pollution and serious mental health issues.

It's just another contributing factor to the general falsehood of the EV market as a solution to what is alledged as an immediate problem. Taking 30-40 years to remove ICE and drop emissions, costing billions and requiring completely new infrastructure while not dealing with other forms of pollution because they are offshore.

A genuine policy would have been to end the sale of any new vehicle in the UK with an engine greater than 1L unless it was an EV. This would have had zero impact on mobility or wallets, catapulted EV sales up without any need for a single subsidy or any political legislation, massively reduced average vehicle weights, tyre widths, brake dust and exhaust emissions from private vehicles.

Resources could have then been invested in dealing with commercial transport and domestic heating much more efficiently.

I suspect most people recognise that we need to change habits, if only to actually save some money for when employers stop needing or wanting them at 55 but the way that we have gone about it is a total farce and an embarrassment. All we done is copy ideas from elsewhere and bodged themnto fit a completely different culture and dynamic while trying to form everything around maintaining a growth in consumption, the very thing causing the excess pollution in the first instance.

An eco product is the product you don't buy. It's the product that you keep for as long as possible, that you repair, that you look after and maintain. It's not the object you rush out to buy because you are addicted to shopping like a bored housewife or daddy's princess and select based on it having a green bit in the logo or some waffle about the environment.


Super_G

834 posts

62 months

Tuesday 2nd March
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Damage to a Jaguar I-PACE battery case under the car costs north of £28,000 to repair. There will be a lot of write offs when these cars get damaged.

Source: https://insideevs.com/news/491369/damage-jaguar-ip...

SWoll

10,854 posts

222 months

Tuesday 2nd March
quotequote all
romeodelta said:
SWoll said:
romeodelta said:
I went to the Australian Taycan launch this weekend and felt pretty meh.

It's a nice car, sure, but didn't give me any 'fizz'.

I didn't drive it as I had my young son with me, but the price is bonkers too.

A mate swapped his RS3 for a Model X. He loves it, but it makes no sense to me.

I think I will be an ICE guy for as long as it's viable.
So did you just look at it or at least get a passenger ride?

Not sure about Aus $ but in the UK the Taycan is actually cheaper than a comparable Panamera.

Taycan 4S - £83,580
Panamera 4S - £92,440
No passenger ride either, but to be honest, I'm not interested. The fact you can spec a fake noise says it all to me.

I don't know what the base list price is, but the ones in the showroom had a few options - I saw around $220k-$380k eek

To be fair, Oz does have a 33% luxury car tax, which includes the cost of options as well.
So didn't drive it or have a passenger ride, apparently don't appreciate how much Porsche's cost (still cheaper than a Panamera in AUS) and put off by it being silent in operation?

Well, at least you got to spend some quality time with your son I suppose?


markcoopers

454 posts

157 months

Tuesday 2nd March
quotequote all
my opinion as to weather the future is better to worse with EV's instead of ICE is irrelevant to all but me, but the simple fact is that change is inevitable, so you can either embrace and find the good in that (Zoe and Maserati for example) or moan about how cr4p it is and why it is unfair and wrong.

I just don't get all the moaning, as if current cars are some pinnacle of automotive pleasure. Only this week most of this forum was moaning yet another VAG product with a ubiquitous EA888 engine and MQB chassis. Cars have had electric non direct steering, throttle and brakes for years. Almost all cars create an illusion of feeling good with faked piped in cabin sounds, electric diffs to pull you round a corner and programmed fake pop and thumping gear changes or crafted drive modes......all fake. I would argue the difference between most cars these days are their respective marketing departments and budgets.

EV's are just different and people don't like change.

DonkeyApple

40,633 posts

133 months

Tuesday 2nd March
quotequote all
markcoopers said:
my opinion as to weather the future is better to worse with EV's instead of ICE is irrelevant to all but me, but the simple fact is that change is inevitable, so you can either embrace and find the good in that (Zoe and Maserati for example) or moan about how cr4p it is and why it is unfair and wrong.

I just don't get all the moaning, as if current cars are some pinnacle of automotive pleasure. Only this week most of this forum was moaning yet another VAG product with a ubiquitous EA888 engine and MQB chassis. Cars have had electric non direct steering, throttle and brakes for years. Almost all cars create an illusion of feeling good with faked piped in cabin sounds, electric diffs to pull you round a corner and programmed fake pop and thumping gear changes or crafted drive modes......all fake. I would argue the difference between most cars these days are their respective marketing departments and budgets.

EV's are just different and people don't like change.
I also think that it is prudent to accept if only to ensure that over the next decade people make the most of the enormous array of choice out there and not just sit there moaning and hoping that all the legislation will be undone or that some mystical new petrol will appear.

We have this window of opportunity and it would be very sad to be one of the people who sat there and did nothing.

Max_Torque

16,391 posts

181 months

Tuesday 2nd March
quotequote all
Super_G said:
Damage to a Jaguar I-PACE battery case under the car costs north of £28,000 to repair. There will be a lot of write offs when these cars get damaged.

Source: https://insideevs.com/news/491369/damage-jaguar-ip...
Absolute total bobbins, sorry! Apparently the "sealant" to seal the battery box costs 12,611 Euro, really? Does it? I have a bridge you can buy if you think that is the case...


More faux "shock and awe" with little basis in reality.