RE: New Mercedes-AMG C63 confirmed as 650hp hybrid
Discussion
Mosdef said:
I think AMG was more like Alpina for a very long time (probably until the mid noughties); nice riding, effortlessly fast, fairly fancy trimmings, easy to live with, without too much bling - save for the odd model like the Hammer or perhaps the wide body SEC. That’s pretty much the opposite of what they have become in recent years, sadly. The mid noughties E55 was just fantastic at being a cosseting but very quick saloon. Every model since then just seems to have moved further away from the original philosophy.
My very first AMG was indeed a W210 E55,albeit in estate form,and your absolutely right, it was a peach of a car.blue al said:
raspy said:
Taking a look at Daimler's annual report for 2019
Also in their report,
"Our 'Ambition 2039' strategy for Mercedes-Benz Cars clearly demonstrates our commitment to climate protection. Our goal here is to become CO2-neutral by 2039. More specifically, this means we plan to achieve CO2-neutral production at our own car plants from 2022, have plug-in hybrids and all-electric drive systems account for more than 50% of our portfolio by 2030,
pdf
Also in their report, Also in their report,
"Our 'Ambition 2039' strategy for Mercedes-Benz Cars clearly demonstrates our commitment to climate protection. Our goal here is to become CO2-neutral by 2039. More specifically, this means we plan to achieve CO2-neutral production at our own car plants from 2022, have plug-in hybrids and all-electric drive systems account for more than 50% of our portfolio by 2030,
https://www.daimler.com/documents/investors/report...
Note 50% of our portfolio, not sales by volume or by value, just more virtue signalling that makes them feel like good investors....
As long as hybrids exist, performance and mpg numbers will be fiddled and cheated. Someone needs to get a grip and make the range and performance numbers stack up with the way cars are actually used in the real world. Full tank to empty with a 20 mile contribution from the grid will be holding up the mirror for all to see that it’s all been smoke and mirrors.
Having a hybrid for a tax benefit is not helping the planet one iota, costing more in resources to make than it possibly saves against a “simpler” all petroleum or all electric equivalent
Tin Hat said:
blue al said:
raspy said:
Taking a look at Daimler's annual report for 2019
Also in their report,
"Our 'Ambition 2039' strategy for Mercedes-Benz Cars clearly demonstrates our commitment to climate protection. Our goal here is to become CO2-neutral by 2039. More specifically, this means we plan to achieve CO2-neutral production at our own car plants from 2022, have plug-in hybrids and all-electric drive systems account for more than 50% of our portfolio by 2030,
pdf
Also in their report, Also in their report,
"Our 'Ambition 2039' strategy for Mercedes-Benz Cars clearly demonstrates our commitment to climate protection. Our goal here is to become CO2-neutral by 2039. More specifically, this means we plan to achieve CO2-neutral production at our own car plants from 2022, have plug-in hybrids and all-electric drive systems account for more than 50% of our portfolio by 2030,
https://www.daimler.com/documents/investors/report...
Note 50% of our portfolio, not sales by volume or by value, just more virtue signalling that makes them feel like good investors....
As long as hybrids exist, performance and mpg numbers will be fiddled and cheated. Someone needs to get a grip and make the range and performance numbers stack up with the way cars are actually used in the real world. Full tank to empty with a 20 mile contribution from the grid will be holding up the mirror for all to see that it’s all been smoke and mirrors.
Having a hybrid for a tax benefit is not helping the planet one iota, costing more in resources to make than it possibly saves against a “simpler” all petroleum or all electric equivalent
ZX10R NIN said:
Schermerhorn said:
650BHP?
Goodbye Audi RS4, BMW M3 and M4 sales.
Goodbye Audi RS4, BMW M3 and M4 sales.
Or Hello Sir said the Alfa/Audi/BMW sales staff!!!!
Mercedes have dropped the ball on this one, I have no doubt this will be a weapon BUT sometimes it's not just about the numbers, having a V8 adds a level of specialness you can't actually put a number on.
It's not just the 63 (they should drop that number now as it has no relevance) they've missed a trick by not putting the 400d/53 drivetrain in the C Class.
Also agree regards the 400d engine in the C Class(it seems mad when BMW sell the 330d/335d). I was also hoping that the newer straight six 400d engine was going to make it into the GLC as well. I'm now having to stick with the ancient V6 350d engine in the GLC because I don't fancy a 4 cylinder diesel engine having to drag a 1900kg car around in the newer GLC.
I tried the small engine in a big car combo with the 520d Touring...and I still haven't got over that bad experience!(8 years on).
off_again said:
With the ever increasing pressure on emissions and MPG, they have to do something. As impressive the C63S can be, it will struggle to get more than 22MPG in average use. You can see more on a consistent run, but the very best I ever saw on a trip was 26MPG! This is not great and when you factor in everyday life, you are going to get 18-20MPG. When we think about the coming rules, regulations and potential fines to manufacturers, this is a big factor.
I know it's not popular on PH, but as car ethusiasts we need to keep our eyes open and admit to ourselves that our Hobby is not a zero impact one.I've driven an EV for the last 5 years for most of our driving, and over that time, used in all weather, all sorts of trips, both long and short, town and country, motor way and B road, flat out and pootle, it returned around 180 mpg equivalent as a 5 year average.
Given that on the public road you can't actually get anywhere any quicker in any "fast" modern car, because even "slow" modern cars are plenty fast enough to exceed every posted limit, and given that in a lot of the UK the weight of traffic now means always catching someone or more likely a queue of cars and therefore having to follow them at their speed, then i'm going to suggest that fairly soon, driving a car that does 18 mpg, ie that uses TEN TIMES the amount of energy for exactly the same journey, is going to become as socially unacceptable as smoking has!
When will that be? Good question, but like smoking, it may be a lot sooner than we might think............
Tin Hat said:
PhantomPH said:
Tin Hat said:
Yes, I’ve had V8 63’s for 10 years, this new arrangement doesn’t light my fire.
The new power plant sounds Uber fast, but it’s like offering me a Ryvita that has been engineered to taste like a rib eye steak - not really what I want.
I see where you're going, but I have to ask - how do you know? This may be one of the best performing and best handling C63's ever produced. It may not have a V8 sound, but what if it sounds brand new and great in it's own right?The new power plant sounds Uber fast, but it’s like offering me a Ryvita that has been engineered to taste like a rib eye steak - not really what I want.
The are hypothetic rather than actual questions, but really I am pointing out that a lot of people are already making big assumptions about this car without any experience of it whatsoever (although I admit that the probability of it being any of the things I said, is pretty low.)
(We know I'm joking...but am I really???)
crispian22 said:
Mosdef said:
I think AMG was more like Alpina for a very long time (probably until the mid noughties); nice riding, effortlessly fast, fairly fancy trimmings, easy to live with, without too much bling - save for the odd model like the Hammer or perhaps the wide body SEC. That’s pretty much the opposite of what they have become in recent years, sadly. The mid noughties E55 was just fantastic at being a cosseting but very quick saloon. Every model since then just seems to have moved further away from the original philosophy.
My very first AMG was indeed a W210 E55,albeit in estate form,and your absolutely right, it was a peach of a car.Leon R said:
J4CKO said:
Yep, 4 cylinders like this old POS !
Max_Torque said:
...then i'm going to suggest that fairly soon, driving a car that does 18 mpg, ie that uses TEN TIMES the amount of energy for exactly the same journey, is going to become as socially unacceptable as smoking has!
When will that be? Good question, but like smoking, it may be a lot sooner than we might think............
If anyone ever confronts me about my car’s CO2 emissions, they’d better be prepared for a bad-tempered interrogation about their own lifestyle. When will that be? Good question, but like smoking, it may be a lot sooner than we might think............
It’s absolutely none of their business what I drive, eat or smoke, especially if they pollute more than me in total.As someone else has already questioned, given that this hybrid system will give a much smaller reduction in tailpipe emissions than a full EV, how many miles would you have to cover using it before it’s offset the pollution created during the design, R&D and production processes? Polestar reckon you need to do 50k in one of their full EVs before it achieves parity with an equivalent ICE Volvo.
And yes, this sort of car is more about cynically gaming the company car tax system than any genuine effort to reduce pollution. It’s the same as the BMW 330e my neighbour has (and didn’t plug-in for the first few months because they pay no attention to cars / driving and apparently didn’t realise how a PHEV worked
).Clivey said:
Max_Torque said:
...then i'm going to suggest that fairly soon, driving a car that does 18 mpg, ie that uses TEN TIMES the amount of energy for exactly the same journey, is going to become as socially unacceptable as smoking has!
When will that be? Good question, but like smoking, it may be a lot sooner than we might think............
If anyone ever confronts me about my car’s CO2 emissions, they’d better be prepared for a bad-tempered interrogation about their own lifestyle. When will that be? Good question, but like smoking, it may be a lot sooner than we might think............
It’s absolutely none of their business what I drive, eat or smoke, especially if they pollute more than me in total.As someone else has already questioned, given that this hybrid system will give a much smaller reduction in tailpipe emissions than a full EV, how many miles would you have to cover using it before it’s offset the pollution created during the design, R&D and production processes? Polestar reckon you need to do 50k in one of their full EVs before it achieves parity with an equivalent ICE Volvo.
And yes, this sort of car is more about cynically gaming the company car tax system than any genuine effort to reduce pollution. It’s the same as the BMW 330e my neighbour has (and didn’t plug-in for the first few months because they pay no attention to cars / driving and apparently didn’t realise how a PHEV worked
).For me as a package it is far superior to ICE for a car that needs to do a variety of daily duties, the performance is perfect for the real world, it's more convenient as i never need to visit fuel stations and charge publicly very infrequently, it's more practical as uses space better and it's significantly lower maintenance. Even more so when the alternatives are becoming increasingly complicated with small capacity, FI engines, integrated hybrid units and auto/DCT gearboxes.
Edited by SWoll on Thursday 1st April 14:00
SWoll said:
Agree the hybrid thing is a piss take and I'm sure that in a BEV a fair mileage needs to be covered to balance the scales. The thing is that even if it cost the same to run our BEV as an equivalent ICE car and was no better for the environment I'd still choose it.
For me as a package it is far superior to ICE for a car that needs to do a variety of daily duties, the performance is perfect for the real world, it's more convenient as i never need to visit fuel stations and charge publicly very infrequently, it's more practical as uses space better and it's significantly lower maintenance. Even more so when the alternatives are becoming increasingly complicated with small capacity, FI engines, integrated hybrid units and auto/DCT gearboxes.
If you enjoy it then fair enough. You don’t need to justify your choices to anyone else. For me as a package it is far superior to ICE for a car that needs to do a variety of daily duties, the performance is perfect for the real world, it's more convenient as i never need to visit fuel stations and charge publicly very infrequently, it's more practical as uses space better and it's significantly lower maintenance. Even more so when the alternatives are becoming increasingly complicated with small capacity, FI engines, integrated hybrid units and auto/DCT gearboxes.
Edited by SWoll on Thursday 1st April 14:00
What I strongly disagree with though is having choices arbitrarily removed via government dictat, especially when the policies are deeply flawed.
Gad-Westy said:
I don't really see it as a valid comparison. The 190e Cosworth was built to DTM homologation rules and had a high revving N/A engine. And it's a much smaller car and more than 700kg lighter than the incoming C63.
it's insane to think you could put the 1500hp bugatti chiron engine and transmission in the 190e and it'd STILL be 140kg lighter than the new C63Clivey said:
What I strongly disagree with though is having choices arbitrarily removed via government dictat, especially when the policies are deeply flawed.
do you smoke?How do you feel about someone smoking and then blowing smoke in your and your families faces because "choices".
The comparison is deliberate. Pretty soon i think wanton automotive consumption is going to go the way of smoking. You might not like it, you might get angry, but hey, the world changes eh
You also seem to believe that electricification has no benefit, either in reality or in policy, which is fine, that's your opinion. It's b*ll*cks of course, The reason on the real world say a prius does around 60mpg on average and a typical 1.8l non hybrid about 45mpg is because hybridisation DOES reduce consumption and emissions (and especially emisisons where you really don't want them, ie in our towns and cites where we all live and work)
The EV i've driven for the last 5 years has averaged 180 mpg (equivalent) over that period, and it's driven much harder than most. The FACT is, the mass uptake of electricification is the best option we have to massively reduce our private car energy consumption. In the UK, for a typical useage, swapping to an EV means a 2.6 to 2.8 times reduction in total energy consumption for an IDENTICAL driving use and style over 100,000 miles. (and no, the 1st owner doesn't need to do all 100,000 miles themselves, because we don't scrap our cars at the point the 1st owner sells them)
So i'm going to (respectfully) suggest that today, those opinions makes you sound to a lot of the population like a dinosaur, and in about 5 years i suspect people who can't change because "choices" will simply be taxed or legislated off the road instead.
Enjoy it whilst you can.........
leef44 said:
Over over under steer said:
Incredible. Will be a great car, glad Mercedes are employing their F1 tech and know how
For a modern day F1 enthusiast, this must be quite exciting.A bit like buying a Subaru Impreza in the mid 1990's.
Max_Torque said:
do you smoke?
How do you feel about someone smoking and then blowing smoke in your and your families faces because "choices".
The comparison is deliberate. Pretty soon i think wanton automotive consumption is going to go the way of smoking. You might not like it, you might get angry, but hey, the world changes eh
Except that I could smoke if I chose to, including in city centres. Yes, there are areas where it's forbidden, just as there are areas where driving any car is forbidden.How do you feel about someone smoking and then blowing smoke in your and your families faces because "choices".
The comparison is deliberate. Pretty soon i think wanton automotive consumption is going to go the way of smoking. You might not like it, you might get angry, but hey, the world changes eh
Also, I would hope that those lambasting ICE drivers don't do things like fly for business several times a year. Do they really want to start a competition to see who can out-prig each other?
Max_Torque said:
You also seem to believe that electricification has no benefit, either in reality or in policy, which is fine, that's your opinion. It's b*ll*cks of course, The reason on the real world say a prius does around 60mpg on average and a typical 1.8l non hybrid about 45mpg is because hybridisation DOES reduce consumption and emissions (and especially emisisons where you really don't want them, ie in our towns and cites where we all live and work)
I didn't say that at all. What I suggested was that there are some hybrids that only really exist to game the system. You have to admit it's pretty ridiculous when a 1.0-litre supermini has to pay the Congestion charge in London but a LaFerrari doesn't (or didn't last time I checked). 
Max_Torque said:
So i'm going to (respectfully) suggest that today, those opinions makes you sound to a lot of the population like a dinosaur, and in about 5 years i suspect people who can't change because "choices" will simply be taxed or legislated off the road instead.
Enjoy it whilst you can.........
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-8...Enjoy it whilst you can.........
- Poll by UK trade body finds that 44% of Britons won't be ready to own an electric car if the deadline is 2035
- A quarter of motorists interviewed said they can never see themselves owning an EV in their lifetime
Not quite the picture you paint. IME plenty of young "car guys" are still gushing over MkIV Supras, Skylines and other cars that were built before they were even born. Many of them see EVs as something they'd only buy if they absolutely had to and if it gets to the stage where this country is so repressive that I don't even have the choice of what to drive, I won't be the only one looking to emigrate. There are plenty of other countries that won't be ready or able to tax ICE drivers off the roads any time soon.
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