What old performance car compares...

[PH User]

It's funny how something can be quick, but at the same time not be exciting.

[ddom]

Welshbeef said:

I’m calling custard on this one.

Are you in the position to call custard on anyone

[dvshannow]

Fast cars are so easy to drive now takes away a bit of the fun - a 992 turbo S can literally be driven by anyone who can drive , you wouldn’t say that about say an f40

And it’s not just the 911 everyday supercar, any modern Ferrari or lambo is very easy to drive slowly , it’s when you press on a few of them can get you into trouble

[ddom]

dvshannow said:

Fast cars are so easy to drive now takes away a bit of the fun - a 992 turbo S can literally be driven by anyone who can drive , you wouldn’t say that about say an f40

And it’s not just the 911 everyday supercar, any modern Ferrari or lambo is very easy to drive slowly , it’s when you press on a few of them can get you into trouble

I’ve driven lots of modern fast cars and they have this issue. 911’s aren’t a great example as they’ve been really useable (some say dull) since the 996. I’d rather a daily car with all the comfort and a fun car which asks questions and is a deeply selfish pursuit.

[s m]

Boobonman said:

...to your modern everyday car in terms of performance?

Was thinking about this the other night, my daily driver E220d has very similar performance to one of my childhood heroes, the Sierra Cosworth.

0-60 under 7 seconds, 150mph flat out.

Doubt very much that the Sierra would do 50mpg but don't doubt that it would probably be a whole lot more fun

You are indeed right - more like 20 on test compared to modern diesel 40!

[Pan Pan Pan]

PH User said:

It's funny how something can be quick, but at the same time not be exciting.

This may be the issue with many modern cars, they are so refined, smooth, and quiet at very high speeds the driver is to an extent insulated from the `normal' pointers that it is travelling fast.
In some cars they are so quiet and insulated even 70 mph `feels' slow enough to believe you can get out and walk faster1
A Seven, is of course nearly the complete opposite to all the above!

[Welshbeef]

ddom said:

Welshbeef said:

I’m calling custard on this one.

Are you in the position to call custard on anyone

Absolutely - everyone has the right to call out someone else’s integrity

[BroadsRS6]

The Porsche Panamera diesel is likely the quickest 0-60 diesel out there but we all know that paper figures are rarely kindest to the oil burners, their strengths are more like 30-80 or 50-100 and also the in-gear performance is often stunning.
A frantic, 250 bhp, 9,000 rpm, petrol 2 litre 4 pot might well be great on paper but in the real world of cut and thrust road driving, the sort of power that gets into you that gap ahead, for example, a diesel will often be far faster in reality. For one thing you haven't got to hold the engine in a low gear at silly rpm, ready to play.
It's all petrol here i this household these days so i have no axe to grind for dervers, but credit where it is due. The modern diesels especially the German 4 litre V8s are fantastic.
400 bhp and 630 ft/lb and yes even a great sound once you uncork the restrictive exhaust.

But on topic nothing fights the 30 year old corner as well as a Skyline R33 or R34. Keep it standard looking, give it a quick 500 bhp and hey presto. Even stock their 310 bhp and light weight and great traction will keep most young pretenders honest across a fast A or B road.

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

Absolutely - everyone has the right to call out someone else’s integrity

The benefit of the hidden behind the keyboard. Sabine who does this in person usually is thought I'd as a dick by ones friends. Oh and they usually apologise when wrong. Still what do I know

[ruggedscotty]

PH User said:

It's funny how something can be quick, but at the same time not be exciting.

what ? exciting as in tail out holigan mode on the road ? Or as a car is meant to be a tool to get to B from A as quickly as possible...

had a run with a guy in an RS7 where he made full use of the power where and when was safe to do so and did it with a fluidity that was hard to fault. no excitement but a good drive..

If your drives are 'exciting' maybe your doing it wrong ?

[ddom]

BroadsRS6 said:

But on topic nothing fights the 30 year old corner as well as a Skyline R33 or R34. Keep it standard looking, give it a quick 500 bhp and hey presto. Even stock their 310 bhp and light weight and great traction will keep most young pretenders honest across a fast A or B road.

Good shout. I’d also put the Lotus Elise up there, not hugely powerful but point to point a really nice car. Then, the Noble M12, for me still a reference in how to make a chassis. I’d bet one lightly breathed on would be a match for most modern things.

[PH User]

ruggedscotty said:

PH User said:

It's funny how something can be quick, but at the same time not be exciting.

what ? exciting as in tail out holigan mode on the road ? Or as a car is meant to be a tool to get to B from A as quickly as possible...

had a run with a guy in an RS7 where he made full use of the power where and when was safe to do so and did it with a fluidity that was hard to fault. no excitement but a good drive..

If your drives are 'exciting' maybe your doing it wrong ?

[Mr Tidy]

s m said:

Boobonman said:

...to your modern everyday car in terms of performance?

Was thinking about this the other night, my daily driver E220d has very similar performance to one of my childhood heroes, the Sierra Cosworth.

0-60 under 7 seconds, 150mph flat out.

Doubt very much that the Sierra would do 50mpg but don't doubt that it would probably be a whole lot more fun

You are indeed right - more like 20 on test compared to modern diesel 40!

But I doubt an E220d would get to 60 in under 7 seconds, whereas the Cossie in that example got there in 5.8 - more than a second adrift is like a world away.

Yet the Cossie is decades older - how quick would a 90s Diesel have been?

I bought a 57 plate BMW 123d in 2008 with a claimed 0-62 time of 7 seconds and in 2014 I replaced it with a 52 plate E46 325ti Compact with the same claimed time, but it was just so much better to drive in every way than the diesesal!

[GordonGekko]

Joey Deacon said:

I found some videos on YouTube from Auto Express a few years ago where they raced a "hero" car against a modern every day (often diesel) car. It was pretty interesting to be honest.

E30 M3 vs 320d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EUaPlGlSIk

Audi Quatro 20v vs Audi A4 diesel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wMMv3fsbH4

Astra GTE vs Astra Estate CDTi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al3eL3UT8PE

Mk2 Golf GTI vs Gold 2.0 TDI (The GTI got spanked)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rRtHJ_cvS8

That brummy is immensely irritating

[s m]

GordonGekko said:

Joey Deacon said:

I found some videos on YouTube from Auto Express a few years ago where they raced a "hero" car against a modern every day (often diesel) car. It was pretty interesting to be honest.

E30 M3 vs 320d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EUaPlGlSIk

Audi Quatro 20v vs Audi A4 diesel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wMMv3fsbH4

Astra GTE vs Astra Estate CDTi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al3eL3UT8PE

Mk2 Golf GTI vs Gold 2.0 TDI (The GTI got spanked)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rRtHJ_cvS8

That brummy is immensely irritating

If he’d got a good start in that 16v Astra the gap would’ve been a lot bigger
Having said that I can imagine the tyres on that Heritage car would be quite time-hardened and not that grippy

[tberg]

I have a 1972 De Tomaso Pantera that has a "massaged" engine to the tune of about 500hp. The original cars in 1971 did 0-60 in 5.5 seconds with about a 160mph top speed. I'm sure mine is quicker to 60 and haven't tried the top speed with the new added horsepower. But as an earlier poster commented, newer cars are just so easy to drive quickly that the thrill and the fun are gone. Driving the Pantera takes all of your concentration, and since you're so low to the ground 50mph feels like 150mph. My 5.0L supercharged Jaguar XKR is certainly quicker than my Pantera was originally, but the thrill factor isn't the same.

[Aiminghigh123]

dvshannow said:

Fast cars are so easy to drive now takes away a bit of the fun - a 992 turbo S can literally be driven by anyone who can drive , you wouldn’t say that about say an f40

And it’s not just the 911 everyday supercar, any modern Ferrari or lambo is very easy to drive slowly , it’s when you press on a few of them can get you into trouble

This for sure.

I haven’t driven an old super car but driven a gallardo manual. Through London it was actually really annoying and I wanted to just park it up. Clutch was pretty heavy and felt like a leg work out by the end. Huracan in comparison is such a breeze with more poke. Best old car I have driven was 92 NSX. B road blast was amazing. As said above pushing on and it could end in tears. It had advertised traction control but it didn’t really do much. Could easily break traction.

I would say last 10-15 years super cars have been made so easy to drive anyone can.

[Baldchap]

If it's 0-60 it's a 427 AC Cobra.

If it's top speed it's a LP400 Countache.

[jagfan2]

havoc said:

jagfan2 said:

My 330d touring (5.6s 0- 60) isnt far off an E39 M5 (5.3) , which is pretty impressive for a 260bhp diesel estate vs 400bhp V8 super saloon, would still have the E39 if they did an estate though

Modern tyres and the instant torque help off the line.

30-70 or 50-100 intervals would be very different.

Under no illusions which is faster really, examples are interesting 30-70, if the M5 was on it, obviously faster, but in traffic/normal driving diesel torque and auto kickdown may make it closer

Now if it was a remapped 335d however ...

[mat205125]

Welshbeef said:

Olivera said:

Welshbeef said:

mat205125 said:

This is exactly the problem with modern high performance cars.

The frequency and level that you're able to exploit their performance is linked to how reckless you might be willing to be.

Really like my E92 M3, but chances to use its performance are frustratingly limited

You can only legally use max revs in 1 gear 2nd is over 70mph. This is an engine you need to Rev out to enjoy but 3rd is 100mph+ 4th 130-140mph.

So unless you change down to 1st for some corners or willingly accept your breaking the speed limit a lot of the time the performance is pretty useless.
My C63 is the twin turbo and with high gearing I too have the same issue however the grunt is extremely useful and used well within legal limits.

Um, you can always shift up at say 6-7k rpm, rather than at the red line? The whole point of a characterful N/A engined car is that you can enjoy it *without* chasing ever high revs/speed.

Well you cannot do that in above 2nd gear in the E92 M3 without being way beyond even a motorway speed limit let alone an A/B road.

As such you are only getting the max power from the unit in one gear and most of the time a fraction of it.

Frustration isn't simply about RPM, however also about the high levels of performance capability in every respect

Scrubbing around at 9.5 tenths in 1275cc minis was fun more often