What old performance car compares...

What old performance car compares...

Author
Discussion

s m

20,717 posts

168 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
jagfan2 said:
havoc said:
jagfan2 said:
My 330d touring (5.6s 0- 60) isnt far off an E39 M5 (5.3) , which is pretty impressive for a 260bhp diesel estate vs 400bhp V8 super saloon, would still have the E39 if they did an estate though
Modern tyres and the instant torque help off the line.

30-70 or 50-100 intervals would be very different.
Under no illusions which is faster really, examples are interesting 30-70, if the M5 was on it, obviously faster, but in traffic/normal driving diesel torque and auto kickdown may make it closer

Now if it was a remapped 335d however ... laugh
I think a healthy M5 V8 would be some seconds faster than a 330d to a ton if the driver is good at changing gear

Something like a 440i Xdrive though is almost the same

Then there is Max Torque’s argument of course that if you can wring the nuts off a modern fast auto diesel like a 335d you will need a MASSIVE performance advantage in a super car to pull any sort of distance without hitting double the speed limit
Down below 70 there’s not so much in it

Edited by s m on Tuesday 4th May 12:38

RJWR

187 posts

3 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
s m said:
I think a healthy M5 V8 would be some seconds faster than a 330d to a ton if the driver is good at changing gear

Something like a 440i Xdrive though is almost the same

Then there is Max Torque’s argument of course that if you can wring the nuts off a modern fast auto diesel like a 335d you will need a MASSIVE performance advantage in a super car to pull any sort of distance without hitting double the speed limit
Down below 70 there’s not so much in it

Edited by s m on Tuesday 4th May 12:38
As matey boy in his R8 found out when he joined behind me on the Evesham bypass. Then came past standing traffic like a tool to turn right to Broadway.

Car and noise jealousy I have. But point made above is Bob on



Mr Tidy

13,819 posts

92 months

Tuesday
quotequote all
s m said:
jagfan2 said:
havoc said:
jagfan2 said:
My 330d touring (5.6s 0- 60) isnt far off an E39 M5 (5.3) , which is pretty impressive for a 260bhp diesel estate vs 400bhp V8 super saloon, would still have the E39 if they did an estate though
Modern tyres and the instant torque help off the line.

30-70 or 50-100 intervals would be very different.
Under no illusions which is faster really, examples are interesting 30-70, if the M5 was on it, obviously faster, but in traffic/normal driving diesel torque and auto kickdown may make it closer

Now if it was a remapped 335d however ... laugh
I think a healthy M5 V8 would be some seconds faster than a 330d to a ton if the driver is good at changing gear

Something like a 440i Xdrive though is almost the same

Then there is Max Torque’s argument of course that if you can wring the nuts off a modern fast auto diesel like a 335d you will need a MASSIVE performance advantage in a super car to pull any sort of distance without hitting double the speed limit
Down below 70 there’s not so much in it

Edited by s m on Tuesday 4th May 12:38
Well if you can't wring the nuts off a modern fast auto diesel you aren't on the right forum!

BMW claimed 0-62 in 5.0 seconds for my manual Z4M Coupe but that assumes you got everything right, which for me is part of the experience.

And the soundtrack is way better than any diesel.

jagfan2

319 posts

142 months

Yesterday (12:52)
quotequote all
s m said:
I think a healthy M5 V8 would be some seconds faster than a 330d to a ton if the driver is good at changing gear

Something like a 440i Xdrive though is almost the same

Then there is Max Torque’s argument of course that if you can wring the nuts off a modern fast auto diesel like a 335d you will need a MASSIVE performance advantage in a super car to pull any sort of distance without hitting double the speed limit
Down below 70 there’s not so much in it

Edited by s m on Tuesday 4th May 12:38
Dont disagree, i wouldnt try if i lined up against one at a set of lights or toll booth. But as you said how often does that happen, 30-70 or 20-50 on a normal road is more comparable, which is what this thread is about isnt it ?

s m

20,717 posts

168 months

Yesterday (12:57)
quotequote all
jagfan2 said:
s m said:
I think a healthy M5 V8 would be some seconds faster than a 330d to a ton if the driver is good at changing gear

Something like a 440i Xdrive though is almost the same

Then there is Max Torque’s argument of course that if you can wring the nuts off a modern fast auto diesel like a 335d you will need a MASSIVE performance advantage in a super car to pull any sort of distance without hitting double the speed limit
Down below 70 there’s not so much in it

Edited by s m on Tuesday 4th May 12:38
Dont disagree, i wouldnt try if i lined up against one at a set of lights or toll booth. But as you said how often does that happen, 30-70 or 20-50 on a normal road is more comparable, which is what this thread is about isnt it ?
yes

Very true - no one in a car that runs 10 secs to a 100 is going to be pulling any real gap on one that takes 15secs at any real world speeds ( I.e.already rolling at 40/50 )

MC Bodge

15,610 posts

140 months

Yesterday (13:17)
quotequote all
s m said:
yes

Very true - no one in a car that runs 10 secs to a 100 is going to be pulling any real gap on one that takes 15secs at any real world speeds ( I.e.already rolling at 40/50 )
Which is something that is often overlooked/ignored by enthusiasts in their obsessions with statistics.

Just because the fastest cars are now ludicrously fast, way beyond road use (and even the thread on here about "who drives fast?" gave the answer "hardly anybody" and even a disappointing number of people happy to trundle along behind columns of slow moving cars), that doesn't make cars that are a bit slower than the fastest ones "slow". The performance capability of some ordinary cars is now just very high.

cerb4.5lee

18,718 posts

145 months

Yesterday (13:39)
quotequote all
MC Bodge said:
Which is something that is often overlooked/ignored by enthusiasts in their obsessions with statistics.

Just because the fastest cars are now ludicrously fast, way beyond road use (and even the thread on here about "who drives fast?" gave the answer "hardly anybody" and even a disappointing number of people happy to trundle along behind columns of slow moving cars), that doesn't make cars that are a bit slower than the fastest ones "slow". The performance capability of some ordinary cars is now just very high.
Your post made me think about some fun that I had with a F10 520d in my F13 640d once. On paper the 640d was the quicker car, however the reality was that he booted it and I was following and then I booted it...and it wasn't until the higher speeds that I actually started to catch him. I thought that I would be onto his rear bumper much quicker than that to be fair.

After that experience I did come away thinking that a F10 520d with the ZF8 auto gearbox is probably all the car that you actually need performance wise. That also probably explains why the 320d with the ZF8 auto is such a goto car for so many people too.

RJWR

187 posts

3 months

Yesterday (15:11)
quotequote all
You also need to consider the fun element of stretching a cars performance without risking the licence too much

legless

1,257 posts

105 months

cerb4.5lee said:
Your post made me think about some fun that I had with a F10 520d in my F13 640d once. On paper the 640d was the quicker car, however the reality was that he booted it and I was following and then I booted it...and it wasn't until the higher speeds that I actually started to catch him. I thought that I would be onto his rear bumper much quicker than that to be fair.

After that experience I did come away thinking that a F10 520d with the ZF8 auto gearbox is probably all the car that you actually need performance wise. That also probably explains why the 320d with the ZF8 auto is such a goto car for so many people too.
I was surprised a couple of years ago when I was following someone driving a 320d in my Superb 280. The guy was nailing it on every straight but was over-fond of the brakes at anything resembling a bend. I got a bit fed up of this and decided to pass him on a short dual carriageway section made up of two 1/4 mile stretches with a roundabout in the middle.

I booted it off the first roundabout, as did he, and while I was able to overtake it took me pretty much the whole first 1/4 mile stretch to pass and build up enough of a gap to pull back in.

Obviously being overtaken by a Skoda was an insult to his manhood, so he tried to re-pass on the next section. I kept him behind without any issue, but I didn't see any noticeable gap building until we got over 60mph.

Of course, once we got to the next bend I never saw him again.

TopTrump

2,313 posts

139 months

legless said:
I was surprised a couple of years ago when I was following someone driving a 320d in my Superb 280. The guy was nailing it on every straight but was over-fond of the brakes at anything resembling a bend. I got a bit fed up of this and decided to pass him on a short dual carriageway section made up of two 1/4 mile stretches with a roundabout in the middle.

I booted it off the first roundabout, as did he, and while I was able to overtake it took me pretty much the whole first 1/4 mile stretch to pass and build up enough of a gap to pull back in.

Obviously being overtaken by a Skoda was an insult to his manhood, so he tried to re-pass on the next section. I kept him behind without any issue, but I didn't see any noticeable gap building until we got over 60mph.

Of course, once we got to the next bend I never saw him again.
Possibly the dullest race I have ever heard about.

mat205125

16,120 posts

178 months

TopTrump said:
legless said:
I was surprised a couple of years ago when I was following someone driving a 320d in my Superb 280. The guy was nailing it on every straight but was over-fond of the brakes at anything resembling a bend. I got a bit fed up of this and decided to pass him on a short dual carriageway section made up of two 1/4 mile stretches with a roundabout in the middle.

I booted it off the first roundabout, as did he, and while I was able to overtake it took me pretty much the whole first 1/4 mile stretch to pass and build up enough of a gap to pull back in.

Obviously being overtaken by a Skoda was an insult to his manhood, so he tried to re-pass on the next section. I kept him behind without any issue, but I didn't see any noticeable gap building until we got over 60mph.

Of course, once we got to the next bend I never saw him again.
Possibly the dullest race I have ever heard about.
Don't think it was intended to be exciting, but what it does illustrate is the kind of complete weapons grade bell end reactions that far too many drivers display as a reaction to being overtaken

KPB1973

573 posts

64 months

ddom said:
Good shout. I’d also put the Lotus Elise up there, not hugely powerful but point to point a really nice car.
Very true. They're a great 'momentum car' - very sharp up to about 70 but beyond that, not much of a match for a decent hot hatch.

My 111R seemed to provoke a fair bit of good natured 'provocation' but often came off worse on any road that didn't have a lot of corners.

That includes a rather embarrassing tangle with a remapped Polo diesel. I could barely keep station with him once on a roll, despite using all the revs.

s m

20,717 posts

168 months

KPB1973 said:
ddom said:
Good shout. I’d also put the Lotus Elise up there, not hugely powerful but point to point a really nice car.
Very true. They're a great 'momentum car' - very sharp up to about 70 but beyond that, not much of a match for a decent hot hatch.

My 111R seemed to provoke a fair bit of good natured 'provocation' but often came off worse on any road that didn't have a lot of corners.

That includes a rather embarrassing tangle with a remapped Polo diesel. I could barely keep station with him once on a roll, despite using all the revs.
Yes, I remember when it came out in the late 90s, despite being much faster accelerating on paper, a standard Elise was barely faster than a 106gti/Saxo VTS at Combe, fast circuit with fast bends. Clustered right together with DC2 ITR and Z3 2.8 too

PH User

17,636 posts

73 months

mat205125 said:
TopTrump said:
legless said:
I was surprised a couple of years ago when I was following someone driving a 320d in my Superb 280. The guy was nailing it on every straight but was over-fond of the brakes at anything resembling a bend. I got a bit fed up of this and decided to pass him on a short dual carriageway section made up of two 1/4 mile stretches with a roundabout in the middle.

I booted it off the first roundabout, as did he, and while I was able to overtake it took me pretty much the whole first 1/4 mile stretch to pass and build up enough of a gap to pull back in.

Obviously being overtaken by a Skoda was an insult to his manhood, so he tried to re-pass on the next section. I kept him behind without any issue, but I didn't see any noticeable gap building until we got over 60mph.

Of course, once we got to the next bend I never saw him again.
Possibly the dullest race I have ever heard about.
Don't think it was intended to be exciting, but what it does illustrate is the kind of complete weapons grade bell end reactions that far too many drivers display as a reaction to being overtaken
Or......he thought that the 2 of them were out having a bit of fun.

AC43

8,849 posts

173 months

Mr Tidy said:
AC43 said:
Autocar couldn't get a BB much beyond 160mph in 1978. Delimited, I could easily do that in my E500. 4 up, fully loaded with AC and seat coolers on. A lot has changed in 4 decades.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/anything-goes/t...
I remember reading that too, when Autocar had quoted 174mph for the Daytona!

My manual 2005 BMW E90 330i ought to manage 160mph delimited - or in 5th as I believe the limiter only applies in 6th.

Things had already moved on in 3 decades - and probably in 2 decades as well!
Well, 12 years later, MB did the 500E. So progress was fast.

Jonny TVR

3,823 posts

246 months

Chubbyross said:
My measurement of car enjoyment is which car would get me out of bed at 5am on a weekend morning. Alas, it wouldn’t be the Range Rover or Mini, as good as they may be. For an old fart like me performance statistics have become meaningless over the last few years.
Its how it makes you feel .. Noises, smells, flat V12 behind your ear, the design of it, the clack of the gearshift, no driver aids and so on!



AC43

8,849 posts

173 months

Jonny TVR said:
Chubbyross said:
My measurement of car enjoyment is which car would get me out of bed at 5am on a weekend morning. Alas, it wouldn’t be the Range Rover or Mini, as good as they may be. For an old fart like me performance statistics have become meaningless over the last few years.
Its how it makes you feel .. Noises, smells, flat V12 behind your ear, the design of it, the clack of the gearshift, no driver aids and so on!


Amazing bit of kit. I love hearing Chris Harris talk about his.

havoc

25,734 posts

200 months

Jonny TVR said:
Its how it makes you feel .. Noises, smells, flat V12 behind your ear, the design of it, the clack of the gearshift, no driver aids and so on!

Yep, that would fit the bill. cloud9