What old performance car compares...

What old performance car compares...

Author
Discussion

E63eeeeee...

455 posts

14 months

Thursday 22nd April
quotequote all
It's a reflection on how far cars have come, 4.3 to 60 isn't even very remarkable any more, but I think you're into the 90s before you get a production supercar that can match the 550bhp in my boring German estate.

otolith

44,212 posts

169 months

Thursday 22nd April
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I remember buying a Civic Type-R in 2002 and realising that it was as quick as the Sierra Cosworth that had seemed such a fast car in my teens.

Mave

6,765 posts

180 months

Thursday 22nd April
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s m said:
Mave said:
Joey Deacon said:
It's funny looking back at what we thought was quick back in 80s/90s. I remember discussing with a friend him looking at getting an Astra GTE 16 valve but they were all crashed because "they are too quick"
I think the context is "they are too quick for the chassis".... smile
I think by that yardstick all hot hatches of that era “were too quick for the chassis”!

Plenty of 205 Gtis departed through hedges

In fact even the guys behind the 205 Gti admitted they couldn’t make something like it now as it was ‘wayward’ in some hands



The edginess was what some people miss about older cars

Take all the traction/stability controls off a modern Mini and they are much like an 80s hatch

Edited by s m on Thursday 22 April 21:15
See, i think the 205 and Astra were opposite ends of the spectrum. The 205 was designed to go round corners, the Astra wasn't. I remember the 205 egging you on to go faster and faster until you realised you were going tooooo fast and needed to gently recover it to a more sensible pace. The Astra told you at the first corner in no uncertain terms that it didn't really want to go around it. Would sir like to understeer of the road with a little bit of tyre scrabble or a lot of tyre scrabble? smile

havoc

25,777 posts

200 months

Thursday 22nd April
quotequote all
To all these people in near-2-tonne, 5-seat, labrador-carrying ballistic missiles...

- How often do you use all of the performance of your car for more than 3 or 4 seconds?
- Does your car still excite you, after a year or two of ownership? Or does the shove-in-the-back become normal?
- Do you still turn around and look back at your car after parking it up?
- If given the choice between your current 500bhp steed or a classic Ferrari/Lamborghini, which one would you actually choose?

SWoll

11,124 posts

223 months

Thursday 22nd April
quotequote all
havoc said:
To all these people in near-2-tonne, 5-seat, labrador-carrying ballistic missiles...

- How often do you use all of the performance of your car for more than 3 or 4 seconds?
- Does your car still excite you, after a year or two of ownership? Or does the shove-in-the-back become normal?
- Do you still turn around and look back at your car after parking it up?
- If given the choice between your current 500bhp steed or a classic Ferrari/Lamborghini, which one would you actually choose?
You seem determined to make a point, I'm just struggling to understand why?

otolith

44,212 posts

169 months

Thursday 22nd April
quotequote all
Cry Havoc and let slip the dogwagons of war?

Cold

10,934 posts

55 months

Thursday 22nd April
quotequote all
havoc said:
To all these people in near-2-tonne, 5-seat, labrador-carrying ballistic missiles...

- How often do you use all of the performance of your car for more than 3 or 4 seconds?
- Does your car still excite you, after a year or two of ownership? Or does the shove-in-the-back become normal?
- Do you still turn around and look back at your car after parking it up?
- If given the choice between your current 500bhp steed or a classic Ferrari/Lamborghini, which one would you actually choose?
What tasks do these classic Italian cars have to perform? Do they involve a wet Thursday afternoon traffic jam, or an icy Tuesday morning? Is an MOT station part of the journey? What about a 90 minute 29°C queue into Goodwood FOS? How many people are coming along for the ride? How much stuff are they bringing?
Details, details.

V88Dicky

6,726 posts

148 months

Thursday 22nd April
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legless said:
rsbmw said:
I expect the XFR would make most supercars from not too long ago look a bit silly, in a straight line at least!
It’ll drop a V8 R8 in a straight line without too much bother at all - https://youtu.be/53W8PEOVXvo
And a Gallardo

https://youtu.be/k942oabdU38

s m

20,733 posts

168 months

Thursday 22nd April
quotequote all
Mave said:
s m said:
Mave said:
Joey Deacon said:
It's funny looking back at what we thought was quick back in 80s/90s. I remember discussing with a friend him looking at getting an Astra GTE 16 valve but they were all crashed because "they are too quick"
I think the context is "they are too quick for the chassis".... smile
I think by that yardstick all hot hatches of that era “were too quick for the chassis”!

Plenty of 205 Gtis departed through hedges

In fact even the guys behind the 205 Gti admitted they couldn’t make something like it now as it was ‘wayward’ in some hands



The edginess was what some people miss about older cars

Take all the traction/stability controls off a modern Mini and they are much like an 80s hatch

Edited by s m on Thursday 22 April 21:15
See, i think the 205 and Astra were opposite ends of the spectrum. The 205 was designed to go round corners, the Astra wasn't. I remember the 205 egging you on to go faster and faster until you realised you were going tooooo fast and needed to gently recover it to a more sensible pace. The Astra told you at the first corner in no uncertain terms that it didn't really want to go around it. Would sir like to understeer of the road with a little bit of tyre scrabble or a lot of tyre scrabble? smile
Different .....but certainly not opposite ends...or at least mine weren’t
The 16v was set up to be quite oversteery ultimately - a fact discovered by quite a few testers - found it very similar to the Peugeots in extremis

Mave

6,765 posts

180 months

Thursday 22nd April
quotequote all
s m said:
Different .....but certainly not opposite ends...or at least mine weren’t
The 16v was set up to be quite oversteery ultimately - a fact discovered by quite a few testers - found it very similar to the Peugeots in extremis
Fair enough if that was your experience, my memory is that mine was very understeery - I don't ever remember having an oversteer moment in it. 25 years later? I can still almost recall the slightly rubbery steering feeling heavy, heavier, lighter, very light.... It was great for A-road, but B-roads were a chore rather than a joy. Had an Alfa 145 after the 205 and that was somewhere in between the two.

donkmeister

3,479 posts

65 months

Thursday 22nd April
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havoc said:
Are we allowed to fit modern tyres to the older cars?

...because that will make a big difference to both acceleration and lap-times (assuming anyone cares about lap-times on road cars...hell, 0-60 doesn't matter away from a drag strip unless you're a teenager).
Two points:
1) Most of the best driving roads are in places where you will sometimes need to go from 0mph to 60mph as quickly as possible to safely pull out. So a quicker car is safer.
2) Also drag strips exist. As do runways. And traffic lights. You should have a go, it's fun.

Ali95

8 posts

25 months

Thursday 22nd April
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My mr2 turbo with bolt on seems to still be decent even by today's standard.

I'm able to keep up with golf r's ( 1 car length) and the like... with my bolt ons now installed running 17psi I'm running around 280~290bhp so I should be able to beat stock ones.

troc

2,680 posts

140 months

Friday 23rd April
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I remember being jealous of my mate’s dad who had a Mazda 626 which could almost do 200kph! A speed which was to my teenaged brain, just astonishing.

Now I drive a 2300kg suv which out performs a Ferrari Testarossa (which seems to be the performance yardstick on this thread).

And to answer havoc, I drove an Audi S4 for 11 years and never got bored with its acceleration, pace and abilities - even I only got to experience them in short bursts.

Also, one of the main differences in performance is in braking (systems and tyres), my recently departed Audi and the new Porsche can both stop from 100kph in around 34m which is quite a feat when you consider the forces involved!

wibble cb

2,386 posts

172 months

Friday 23rd April
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My 1993 Jetta Gti 16v was quite the Q car in it’s day, comparatively light , 139bhp, it went quite well, but I doubt it would see which way my wife’s 2011 Golf Mk6 with 170 Bhp went!

Mr Tidy

13,845 posts

92 months

Friday 23rd April
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
I remember when I got my Sierra XR4X4 when I was 20 and I remember thinking that 150bhp seemed like fair bit! It did 0 to 60 in 8.2 seconds...that is absolutely glacial performance wise now though for sure.

Performance has moved on so much for certain. I did used to really like how much lighter cars were back then when compared to now though.
I can relate to that as I bought a 1982 Capri 2.8 Injection with a claimed 160bhp in 1984 and at the time thought it was a rocket-ship!

Autocar reckoned it got to 60 in 7.9 seconds and managed 127mph.

In 2005 I bought a 2004 BMW 320td Compact which was supposed to produce 150bhp and do 0-60 in 8.3 seconds with a top speed of 133mph.

Then in 2014 I bought the Compact I should have got before, a 2002 325ti with 192bhp. IIRC it was supposed to get to 60 in 7.0 seconds and do 144mph.

So in just 20 years things moved on considerably for 3 door RWD hatches, and a late M140i would no doubt have moved the goalposts even further.

But I guess it's what people want, and I don't have a problem with that!

You just have to make sure you only use the extra performance appropriately.

s m

20,733 posts

168 months

Friday 23rd April
quotequote all
Mave said:
s m said:
Different .....but certainly not opposite ends...or at least mine weren’t
The 16v was set up to be quite oversteery ultimately - a fact discovered by quite a few testers - found it very similar to the Peugeots in extremis
Fair enough if that was your experience, my memory is that mine was very understeery - I don't ever remember having an oversteer moment in it. 25 years later? I can still almost recall the slightly rubbery steering feeling heavy, heavier, lighter, very light.... It was great for A-road, but B-roads were a chore rather than a joy. Had an Alfa 145 after the 205 and that was somewhere in between the two.
I think cars were a lot more variable quality back then and I remember one of the ex Vauxhall guys who worked at RML with my friend said they were like the Integrales in that no 2 ever came out the showroom the same with regard to the geo.
A bit like the Focus RS where different examples drove differently

Mine was really good, especially after I’d redone all the suspension with standard new bushes etc but some of the ones I looked at had been run on a shoestring and often the rack mountings /bulkhead had cracked because of rust ( the sound deadening used to trap water in that area ). Mine felt best on GY F1 GSD tyres and was honestly like a big 205 in that you could feel the back end loosening as you lifted the throttle. Not as secure as my 309 but nothing I drove from that time was. Can remember a couple of mags saying you had to be quick to catch it when it went, like the 205, but just remember it being great fun to drive on the twisties. Brakes were great and engine pulled really well out of corners.

Never drove the 16v Golf hard enough ( only owned an 8v ) to compare but a lot of reviews did mention they were more of an understeerer than the Astra 16v

Edited by s m on Friday 23 April 00:27

E63eeeeee...

455 posts

14 months

Friday 23rd April
quotequote all
havoc said:
To all these people in near-2-tonne, 5-seat, labrador-carrying ballistic missiles...

- How often do you use all of the performance of your car for more than 3 or 4 seconds?
- Does your car still excite you, after a year or two of ownership? Or does the shove-in-the-back become normal?
- Do you still turn around and look back at your car after parking it up?
- If given the choice between your current 500bhp steed or a classic Ferrari/Lamborghini, which one would you actually choose?
Reckon I can have a go at this.

- 3-4 seconds quite frequently, that's just a launch from standstill on a 60mph road, or joining a motorway from a slow roundabout or a 30mph slip. Much more than 5 seconds, almost never. Joining the M62. Leaving the toll booths on the M6 toll. Couple of specific sliproads for acceleration and a few others for lateral G. But that's one of the things that makes it work for me is that whatever speed you want to be doing, you're almost never more than a few seconds away from doing it, makes it GT-like on long journeys.
- I find acceleration more fun than outright speed. It does become normalised to some extent, but after more than a year I still look for opportunities to do it. I'm not the most excitable person but I definitely still enjoy it.
- Nope. I bought it because it looks boring. I debadged it, looked into changing the exhausts. I'm not very flashy. I still feel a bit odd with the roof down in the E46.
- If there's a classic Lambo or Ferrari that can take a full-size fridge freezer to the tip or collect a pair of E46 bumpers from the other end of the country, I might be interested, otherwise I'll keep the Merc, thanks.

Pan Pan Pan

7,745 posts

76 months

Friday 23rd April
quotequote all
if we are talking about our everyday cars. the range of decent cars is very wide. A seven is not an everyday car, but still has a respectable turn of speed, not forgetting handling for a car design that is so old, But its performance has been caught up, and in some cases overtaken, by what some might describe as shopping cars.

ReformedPistonhead

602 posts

102 months

Friday 23rd April
quotequote all
havoc said:
To all these people in near-2-tonne, 5-seat, labrador-carrying ballistic missiles...

- How often do you use all of the performance of your car for more than 3 or 4 seconds?
- Does your car still excite you, after a year or two of ownership? Or does the shove-in-the-back become normal?
- Do you still turn around and look back at your car after parking it up?
- If given the choice between your current 500bhp steed or a classic Ferrari/Lamborghini, which one would you actually choose?
When I had my RS6 Performance and a 488 GTB at the same time I would answer as follows:

- How often do you use all of the performance of your car for more than 3 or 4 seconds? Often in both, its very addictive and you think normal cars are broken when you pull off. But I am 7 years old.

- Does your car still excite you, after a year or two of ownership? Or does the shove-in-the-back become normal? Owned the RS6 3 years and it was still exciting, although the artificial farts became embarrassing after a while.

- Do you still turn around and look back at your car after parking it up? Yes in both.

- If given the choice between your current 500bhp steed or a classic Ferrari/Lamborghini, which one would you actually choose? I owned both and the answer was for the airport, supermarket, beach it was the RS6, for everything else including a 10 mile drive which ended at home it was the Ferrari. A classic Ferrari or Lambo wouldn't see which way the RS6 went on the twisty bits or otherwise even though the RS6 was a barge but that would not be the point. I treated the RS6 like you treat a Fridge, as a functional machine but I never loved it. A classic car is something else entirely.



Arnie Cunningham

1,373 posts

218 months

Friday 23rd April
quotequote all
Mindful of what our definition of old is, I’m happy enough with the performance of my 18 year old audi RS6 and 24 year old Ultima.