Will electric hot hatches be a hit ?
Discussion
Leon R said:
Mave said:
Leon R said:
Mave said:
Leon R said:
The answer is no because it is literally impossible to miss what you've never had / experienced.
This assumes that the people who they will be a"hit" with are us.Original hot hatches weren't really aspirational for sports car drivers, they were aspirational for cold hatch drivers. I imagine that EV hot hatches will be aspirational for ICE cold hatches owners in the same way.
You cannot miss something you have never had, I cannot miss driving a McLaren F1 because I have never driven one....
I agree that if someone has only ever driven a Nissan Leaf and their next car is a model 3 performance then there is nothing to miss.
I do wonder how different it'd really feel compared to say an F40 M135i or new S3 left in Auto. No gearchanging (yourself), lots of torque available all the time, loads of traction from a fancy AWD system, and especially for the S3 a very muted, hoover-like exhaust note that nobody would really miss.
I don't think an E-hot hatch could replicate something like an Integra Type R, Clio Cup or modified Fiesta ST/old Focus RS though.
I don't think an E-hot hatch could replicate something like an Integra Type R, Clio Cup or modified Fiesta ST/old Focus RS though.
HazzaT said:
I don't think an E-hot hatch could replicate something like an Integra Type R, Clio Cup or modified Fiesta ST/old Focus RS though.
Nor could they replicate the Ehatch though.Things change. The trick is finding joy wherever you can. Too many people here look for misery everywhere they can.
Sporky said:
HazzaT said:
I don't think an E-hot hatch could replicate something like an Integra Type R, Clio Cup or modified Fiesta ST/old Focus RS though.
Nor could they replicate the Ehatch though.Things change. The trick is finding joy wherever you can. Too many people here look for misery everywhere they can.
Mave said:
Well, I think if you drive a normal ICE hatch then you may only have experienced average performance and a mundane exhaust note. I would aspire to an EV hot hatch more than my wife's car, for example, because it would be much faster, wouldn't sound like a tractor, and wouldn't have an obstinate gear change.
Some very average performing cars (stats wise) are where many petrol heads start.I had a MK1 Focus Ghia which I absolutely adored driving even though it wasn't fast at all because it handled so well and the gear change was also pretty good.
Outright speed is pretty low on my priorities when looking for a car but equally I know for some people that is very important, these are the folks that EV hot hatches would be a hit with.
It is an interesting question though as in order to get range on an EV you need a big battery which will give you decent power anyway so what do you do for the hot version? An even bigger battery or is it all suspension work and aesthetics.
TurboHatchback said:
I think the very concept of the hot hatch might die out. Performance is already at the point of irrelevance even with ICE cars, when electric becomes mainstream and even the most basic shopping hatchback is quicker than there is ever opportunity to use then what exactly will be the point of an even faster version?
Sports cars will remain as they are defined by their lack of seats, lack of roof and subjective feel rather than outright performance but I wonder how long the concept of the mainstream performance hatchback will survive electrification.
I'm not sure it'll pan out like that in reality. Sure, they could make all cars as fast as a Tesla, but I've got my doubts they will in reality, can you imagine some old codger piloting a car that does 0-60 in 3 seconds, what could possibly go wrong Sports cars will remain as they are defined by their lack of seats, lack of roof and subjective feel rather than outright performance but I wonder how long the concept of the mainstream performance hatchback will survive electrification.
We're a pretty risk averse, health and safety kinda society and they will just sell the equivalent of milk floats for those who want to do humdrum A-B stuff. There will still be a market for those who want to go fast. Mind this is all before whatever governments have in mind to make roads a safer place, all fun will be squeezed out of driving eventually.That said, while I can see the benefits, I think I'll resist for as long as possible. The art of driving is slowly but surely being killed off. It's been my lifelong hobby and obsession, but I have no interest in this new breed, at least right now. It will take a lot to convince me cars will be more interesting in future when they're just literal white goods on wheels.
Leon R said:
Some very average performing cars (stats wise) are where many petrol heads start.
I had a MK1 Focus Ghia which I absolutely adored driving even though it wasn't fast at all because it handled so well and the gear change was also pretty good.
Outright speed is pretty low on my priorities when looking for a car but equally I know for some people that is very important, these are the folks that EV hot hatches would be a hit with.
It is an interesting question though as in order to get range on an EV you need a big battery which will give you decent power anyway so what do you do for the hot version? An even bigger battery or is it all suspension work and aesthetics.
Yeah, but I wonder if a focus is unusual or the norm these days, in terms of its sportiness? When I started driving, a car was a car (even if it was an Austin Allegro), and that in itself was a huge step forward from my Mk1 legs and Mk2 bicycle. It wasn't until I moved onto better cars that I started recognising that some cars had better gear changes, nicer steering, more progressive brakes, slicker gear changes. If I had progressed through a different path of better and better cars, my view of what is important would probably be different. I had a MK1 Focus Ghia which I absolutely adored driving even though it wasn't fast at all because it handled so well and the gear change was also pretty good.
Outright speed is pretty low on my priorities when looking for a car but equally I know for some people that is very important, these are the folks that EV hot hatches would be a hit with.
It is an interesting question though as in order to get range on an EV you need a big battery which will give you decent power anyway so what do you do for the hot version? An even bigger battery or is it all suspension work and aesthetics.
Alex_225 said:
I suspect the majority of the car buying public, who are impressed with EVs and their speed will relish a hot hatch of some kind. I suspect they could be rather fun. Their limitations hopefully being weeded out.
It's us old school lot who prefer noise, gear changes and that involvement you can get from a hot hatch. So amongst us lot, probably not.
Personally I prefer the idea of EV's being silent and powerful in cars where that's the criteria now like an S Class for example.
That seems logical. It's certainly the case that an EV power train categorically suits a big wafter. It's also ideal for the mundane, suburban chores of the hatchback and most vehicles as they plod witlessly and lifelessly along the same road, at the same time every day to do the exact same thing. It's us old school lot who prefer noise, gear changes and that involvement you can get from a hot hatch. So amongst us lot, probably not.
Personally I prefer the idea of EV's being silent and powerful in cars where that's the criteria now like an S Class for example.
They will just always be a bit of a hurdle for people who either gain pleasure from machinery or from driving off the beaten track.
Such people get mocked on PH as some form of Luddite but obviously it isn't backward to find pleasure in old furniture, old art, old machinery, old cars. It's not backward to find pleasure in operating that machinery. Nor is it backward to just go somewhere for pleasure, for the sake of it.
What is backward is deriding someone for what they enjoy.
Hot hatches only exist because there is a basic shopping box to begin with. Going forward over the next 30 years the bulk of these utility transport shopping boxes will drop their boring petrol or Diesel engines and get boring electric motors. This is no bad thing. These are the cars delivering localised pollution and they are almost all just bought in the basis of monthlies, brand and colour in order to travel the exact same ten miles a day, every day for three years until someone else takes it to travel a different mundane ten miles a day. The problem for car enthusiasts is that this obviously means there are no boxes of blandness to which to add a silly engine or turn up the boost on. So in this regard the hot hatch is dead. Get your Yaris now and look after it like the old boy who you always laughed at for keeping his pristine Allegro for 40 years.
The electric hot hatch is clearly going to be different. More power means more weight but the basic hatchback box to begin with has that hot hatch performance as a result of needing range. Most hatchbacks probably only need a tiny battery as they only travel a few miles a day but they are being fitted with 250-300 mile ranges and get hot hatch performance.
Are they hot hatches? Well, I don't think so because it's not really all about speed. There's an element of feeling free which you don't get with the EV because you have to stick to where the electricity comes out of the ground. They also aren't mechanically involving. Even if that's pulling a paddle rather than storing a stick, that faffing about with incompetent old technology is part of the pleasure and purpose. As is the noise. The noise is the childish bit. You'd think that IT golf and engineers would understand the importance of childishness having stayed living with their mothers until their early 49s and playing kids computer games in their spare time or making snide, playground remarks from the safety of their mum's house.
But the real killer is that the hot hatch is about channeling one's inner chav. The hot hatch is pure chavism. It's noisy, smelly, uncouth, antisocial, unnecessary it's a yob. That's why we like them. We live sanitised, respectable lives and are very happy to live within the social and Earl rules of society but all of us have a side that sometimes we just want to be a bit of a yob. The hot hatch is that release. You don't have to dress like a clown, you don't have to start spitting and spreading disease, you don't have to start talking as if you've had a stroke. All you need to do is raise the garage door and go for a pointless drive in your chavwagon. The hot hatch is the socially acceptable and enjoyable way to release one's inner chav.
And that's why an EV hatchback, however hot isn't really a hot hatch. It's the default weapon of choice for the elderly and the benign. It's the suburban runabout for normal folk, doing normal things with a normal number of children. It's uniformity and blandness personified. Regardless of pace there's nothing to bush about Margaret or Steve living very happy, conventional suburban lives and trundling to the office or the school run during the week with the occasional detour to other local establishments.
The electric Mini is a cracking car as is the i3, my preferred choice but they represent middle income mundanity. It's more likely to be put on show on the driveway so that people appreciate that you care about stuff that you henestly don't give too f
ks about as long as you can get the latest wifi enabled toaster next week. It's just a normal car for doing normal things. Something like the Yaris is conversely a bit of an embarrassment. It's an antisocial oik from a low income brand. It doesn't even project the facade that you care about things you have no care of at all. It doesn't really project any kind of positive image. It's like that girl from years ago that was unbelievable fun but you manifestly never told your mother about. You keep your Yaris in the garage. Not because it's your pride and joy but because it's a chav chariot. And when you drive it you drive a bit like a yob and you don't tend to stick to your prescribed daily route.
Of course EV's will be marketed as hot hatches but fitting a bigger battery or sticking on a load of trim won't make them yobbish any more than putting a baseball cap on Jacob Rees-Mogg and making him say 'yo!' would. The EV represents the polar opposite of the hot hatch socially.
But petrol will remain on sale for decades to come and while the hot hatch will stop being sold in ten to fifteen years time, potentially, the ones we have today won't disappear unless we, the car enthusiasts who drive them, fail to look after them and cherish them for what they are. And as we migrate more and more to EVs and more of the car parks and destinations and domestic driveways fill up with EVs then arguably the chavishness of the hot hatch will become even more potent and symbolic.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that anyone who likes driving for the sake of driving would be wise to start considering which hot hatch they want to buy now to cherish and keep for the long term, viewing it as a classic car instead of a disposable object just cycling through on consumer debt. Once we all have EVs for our daily stuff then these little chav chariots tucked away in the garage for escapism will be important.
Just to point out that I'm in my 60's.
I have a TVR Tuscan that I drive a lot, its been all over Europe and is nearing 90k miles now.
The performance and the noise always makes me smile and I love it.
I also drive a BMW i3S which goes like hot snot and is great fun to drive.
It runs silently at low speed and when you floor it the impact of your back against the seat is still the same as the TVR, makes me smile and I love it.
Its a different experience but its still a good experience.
Embrace the future because its coming your way.
I have a TVR Tuscan that I drive a lot, its been all over Europe and is nearing 90k miles now.
The performance and the noise always makes me smile and I love it.
I also drive a BMW i3S which goes like hot snot and is great fun to drive.
It runs silently at low speed and when you floor it the impact of your back against the seat is still the same as the TVR, makes me smile and I love it.
Its a different experience but its still a good experience.
Embrace the future because its coming your way.
On the basis that I believe all hatchbacks are inherently and intrinsically crap and uninteresting, I've always maintained that the best hatchbacks are the cheapest base-model cars. You can then appreciate them for their financial virtues and forgive them for their flaws which, if buying the hot-hatch variants, just manifest themselves as massive and expensive disappointments.
A cheap hatchback is a good thing. If given the world's "best" hatchback for free, I'd have it listed on Autotrader that same day, and if it were in fact a hatchback the household needed I'd buy a base model something or other 4 years old and pocket the difference.
I wouldn't pay a penny more for a supposedly "hot" electric hatchback than I would for the most basic version.
A cheap hatchback is a good thing. If given the world's "best" hatchback for free, I'd have it listed on Autotrader that same day, and if it were in fact a hatchback the household needed I'd buy a base model something or other 4 years old and pocket the difference.
I wouldn't pay a penny more for a supposedly "hot" electric hatchback than I would for the most basic version.
TameRacingDriver said:
great post donkeyapple 
Certainly a different way of looking at things but I found myself nodding in agreement
I know people with no interest who go climbing mountains, sail, fly planes, fly microlights, play in bands, travel the world etc who have either passing, or zero interest in cars.
I however have embraced my inner chav with a hot hatch that is getting way too much money lavished on it to make it extra obnoxious, smelly and loud.
The problem with all of this is that people try and put their view of the world forward into the next one. Hot hatches must have manuals, noise etc etc when in reality all of that is getting less and less with hot hatches anyway. They will have sporty EVs but even big standard EVs will offer acceleration far beyond the usual bog standard ICE car. The issue of sporty EV is not one for the next ten years or so becasuse it will happen. The issue is 25 years time when the move is finally made to self driving autonomous cars being the norm. How do you make that sporty and anything more than a transportation pod? The problem that brings is much bigger because why then would you buy a Porsche or Ferrari pod or a Golf R pod over an Apple or a Dyson pod?
DonkeyApple said:
That seems logical. It's certainly the case that an EV power train categorically suits a big wafter. It's also ideal for the mundane, suburban chores of the hatchback and most vehicles as they plod witlessly and lifelessly along the same road, at the same time every day to do the exact same thing.
They will just always be a bit of a hurdle for people who either gain pleasure from machinery or from driving off the beaten track.
Such people get mocked on PH as some form of Luddite but obviously it isn't backward to find pleasure in old furniture, old art, old machinery, old cars. It's not backward to find pleasure in operating that machinery. Nor is it backward to just go somewhere for pleasure, for the sake of it.
What is backward is deriding someone for what they enjoy.
Hot hatches only exist because there is a basic shopping box to begin with. Going forward over the next 30 years the bulk of these utility transport shopping boxes will drop their boring petrol or Diesel engines and get boring electric motors. This is no bad thing. These are the cars delivering localised pollution and they are almost all just bought in the basis of monthlies, brand and colour in order to travel the exact same ten miles a day, every day for three years until someone else takes it to travel a different mundane ten miles a day. The problem for car enthusiasts is that this obviously means there are no boxes of blandness to which to add a silly engine or turn up the boost on. So in this regard the hot hatch is dead. Get your Yaris now and look after it like the old boy who you always laughed at for keeping his pristine Allegro for 40 years.
The electric hot hatch is clearly going to be different. More power means more weight but the basic hatchback box to begin with has that hot hatch performance as a result of needing range. Most hatchbacks probably only need a tiny battery as they only travel a few miles a day but they are being fitted with 250-300 mile ranges and get hot hatch performance.
Are they hot hatches? Well, I don't think so because it's not really all about speed. There's an element of feeling free which you don't get with the EV because you have to stick to where the electricity comes out of the ground. They also aren't mechanically involving. Even if that's pulling a paddle rather than storing a stick, that faffing about with incompetent old technology is part of the pleasure and purpose. As is the noise. The noise is the childish bit. You'd think that IT golf and engineers would understand the importance of childishness having stayed living with their mothers until their early 49s and playing kids computer games in their spare time or making snide, playground remarks from the safety of their mum's house.
But the real killer is that the hot hatch is about channeling one's inner chav. The hot hatch is pure chavism. It's noisy, smelly, uncouth, antisocial, unnecessary it's a yob. That's why we like them. We live sanitised, respectable lives and are very happy to live within the social and Earl rules of society but all of us have a side that sometimes we just want to be a bit of a yob. The hot hatch is that release. You don't have to dress like a clown, you don't have to start spitting and spreading disease, you don't have to start talking as if you've had a stroke. All you need to do is raise the garage door and go for a pointless drive in your chavwagon. The hot hatch is the socially acceptable and enjoyable way to release one's inner chav.
And that's why an EV hatchback, however hot isn't really a hot hatch. It's the default weapon of choice for the elderly and the benign. It's the suburban runabout for normal folk, doing normal things with a normal number of children. It's uniformity and blandness personified. Regardless of pace there's nothing to bush about Margaret or Steve living very happy, conventional suburban lives and trundling to the office or the school run during the week with the occasional detour to other local establishments.
The electric Mini is a cracking car as is the i3, my preferred choice but they represent middle income mundanity. It's more likely to be put on show on the driveway so that people appreciate that you care about stuff that you henestly don't give too fks about as long as you can get the latest wifi enabled toaster next week. It's just a normal car for doing normal things.
Something like the Yaris is conversely a bit of an embarrassment. It's an antisocial oik from a low income brand. It doesn't even project the facade that you care about things you have no care of at all. It doesn't really project any kind of positive image. It's like that girl from years ago that was unbelievable fun but you manifestly never told your mother about. You keep your Yaris in the garage. Not because it's your pride and joy but because it's a chav chariot. And when you drive it you drive a bit like a yob and you don't tend to stick to your prescribed daily route.
Of course EV's will be marketed as hot hatches but fitting a bigger battery or sticking on a load of trim won't make them yobbish any more than putting a baseball cap on Jacob Rees-Mogg and making him say 'yo!' would. The EV represents the polar opposite of the hot hatch socially.
But petrol will remain on sale for decades to come and while the hot hatch will stop being sold in ten to fifteen years time, potentially, the ones we have today won't disappear unless we, the car enthusiasts who drive them, fail to look after them and cherish them for what they are. And as we migrate more and more to EVs and more of the car parks and destinations and domestic driveways fill up with EVs then arguably the chavishness of the hot hatch will become even more potent and symbolic.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that anyone who likes driving for the sake of driving would be wise to start considering which hot hatch they want to buy now to cherish and keep for the long term, viewing it as a classic car instead of a disposable object just cycling through on consumer debt. Once we all have EVs for our daily stuff then these little chav chariots tucked away in the garage for escapism will be important.
Oh dear.They will just always be a bit of a hurdle for people who either gain pleasure from machinery or from driving off the beaten track.
Such people get mocked on PH as some form of Luddite but obviously it isn't backward to find pleasure in old furniture, old art, old machinery, old cars. It's not backward to find pleasure in operating that machinery. Nor is it backward to just go somewhere for pleasure, for the sake of it.
What is backward is deriding someone for what they enjoy.
Hot hatches only exist because there is a basic shopping box to begin with. Going forward over the next 30 years the bulk of these utility transport shopping boxes will drop their boring petrol or Diesel engines and get boring electric motors. This is no bad thing. These are the cars delivering localised pollution and they are almost all just bought in the basis of monthlies, brand and colour in order to travel the exact same ten miles a day, every day for three years until someone else takes it to travel a different mundane ten miles a day. The problem for car enthusiasts is that this obviously means there are no boxes of blandness to which to add a silly engine or turn up the boost on. So in this regard the hot hatch is dead. Get your Yaris now and look after it like the old boy who you always laughed at for keeping his pristine Allegro for 40 years.
The electric hot hatch is clearly going to be different. More power means more weight but the basic hatchback box to begin with has that hot hatch performance as a result of needing range. Most hatchbacks probably only need a tiny battery as they only travel a few miles a day but they are being fitted with 250-300 mile ranges and get hot hatch performance.
Are they hot hatches? Well, I don't think so because it's not really all about speed. There's an element of feeling free which you don't get with the EV because you have to stick to where the electricity comes out of the ground. They also aren't mechanically involving. Even if that's pulling a paddle rather than storing a stick, that faffing about with incompetent old technology is part of the pleasure and purpose. As is the noise. The noise is the childish bit. You'd think that IT golf and engineers would understand the importance of childishness having stayed living with their mothers until their early 49s and playing kids computer games in their spare time or making snide, playground remarks from the safety of their mum's house.
But the real killer is that the hot hatch is about channeling one's inner chav. The hot hatch is pure chavism. It's noisy, smelly, uncouth, antisocial, unnecessary it's a yob. That's why we like them. We live sanitised, respectable lives and are very happy to live within the social and Earl rules of society but all of us have a side that sometimes we just want to be a bit of a yob. The hot hatch is that release. You don't have to dress like a clown, you don't have to start spitting and spreading disease, you don't have to start talking as if you've had a stroke. All you need to do is raise the garage door and go for a pointless drive in your chavwagon. The hot hatch is the socially acceptable and enjoyable way to release one's inner chav.
And that's why an EV hatchback, however hot isn't really a hot hatch. It's the default weapon of choice for the elderly and the benign. It's the suburban runabout for normal folk, doing normal things with a normal number of children. It's uniformity and blandness personified. Regardless of pace there's nothing to bush about Margaret or Steve living very happy, conventional suburban lives and trundling to the office or the school run during the week with the occasional detour to other local establishments.
The electric Mini is a cracking car as is the i3, my preferred choice but they represent middle income mundanity. It's more likely to be put on show on the driveway so that people appreciate that you care about stuff that you henestly don't give too f
ks about as long as you can get the latest wifi enabled toaster next week. It's just a normal car for doing normal things. Something like the Yaris is conversely a bit of an embarrassment. It's an antisocial oik from a low income brand. It doesn't even project the facade that you care about things you have no care of at all. It doesn't really project any kind of positive image. It's like that girl from years ago that was unbelievable fun but you manifestly never told your mother about. You keep your Yaris in the garage. Not because it's your pride and joy but because it's a chav chariot. And when you drive it you drive a bit like a yob and you don't tend to stick to your prescribed daily route.
Of course EV's will be marketed as hot hatches but fitting a bigger battery or sticking on a load of trim won't make them yobbish any more than putting a baseball cap on Jacob Rees-Mogg and making him say 'yo!' would. The EV represents the polar opposite of the hot hatch socially.
But petrol will remain on sale for decades to come and while the hot hatch will stop being sold in ten to fifteen years time, potentially, the ones we have today won't disappear unless we, the car enthusiasts who drive them, fail to look after them and cherish them for what they are. And as we migrate more and more to EVs and more of the car parks and destinations and domestic driveways fill up with EVs then arguably the chavishness of the hot hatch will become even more potent and symbolic.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that anyone who likes driving for the sake of driving would be wise to start considering which hot hatch they want to buy now to cherish and keep for the long term, viewing it as a classic car instead of a disposable object just cycling through on consumer debt. Once we all have EVs for our daily stuff then these little chav chariots tucked away in the garage for escapism will be important.
IF I lived in a large city, with limited parking opportunities and a punitive ULEZ regime, then I think it could be the perfect car, in the right circumstances.
Those circumstances, would include the ability to drive on some nice country roads outside the probable 20mph city limits limits that are likely to follow in time.
As much as I prefer ICE cars, I think we're still at the infancy stages of electric hot hatches to be fair. I think with technology, the scope is endless on what can be achieved to make them exciting and engaging and I feel in time, we would begin to see that.
As ICE cars developed to a point where you can supercharge them, add after market intakes and exhausts, add bigger turbos, different suspension, etc, for a more rewarding drive, I feel in time, that's going to be the same with ICE cars with manufacturers constantly working on and developing cars and aftermarket parts to appeal to that segment of the market as they are doing now with the current ICE cars.
I mean, a modern hatchback now like the GR Yaris has as much power as an old supercar from the 80's or 90's and trick suspension to better the old quattros from the 80's. Who would have dreamt that back then?
Nonetheless, I hope we can continue to enjoy ICE cars we have now for as long as possible but the future can certainly be as exciting if we open up our minds to it.
As ICE cars developed to a point where you can supercharge them, add after market intakes and exhausts, add bigger turbos, different suspension, etc, for a more rewarding drive, I feel in time, that's going to be the same with ICE cars with manufacturers constantly working on and developing cars and aftermarket parts to appeal to that segment of the market as they are doing now with the current ICE cars.
I mean, a modern hatchback now like the GR Yaris has as much power as an old supercar from the 80's or 90's and trick suspension to better the old quattros from the 80's. Who would have dreamt that back then?
Nonetheless, I hope we can continue to enjoy ICE cars we have now for as long as possible but the future can certainly be as exciting if we open up our minds to it.
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