RE: Living with an Enyaq | PH Footnote

[stanglish]

Max_Torque said:

er, if you are "skint" how are you paying the £400 a month in fuel bills currently?

(200 miles a day at 50 mpg is £20.28 a day in fuel, £101 a week, £400 a month)

"200 miles in a day" NOT "200 miles every day"

I know loads of people who have to do this for work, especially travelling to client sites where their clients are constantly changing. Or for Holidays this is super-common and the cost of hiring a larger family car is simply punitive.

Let's drop it to 140 miles though round-trip, which is pretty common. And let me play the role of a buyer here, who likes the Kona....

Ah, damn - I can't afford the more expensive one and it has no subsidy either making it a lot more. But I could get the cheaper one that does 168 miles a day and that works. Oh no, it actually doesn't when I consider the real-world figures, and the deterioration in winter, or that I might need to take a 5 mile extra detour to pick up the kids or some shopping on the way home. This is the real world.

You need to not get your back up every time someone says that EV for themselves won't work right now. Not everyone is denying that things won't change in time, most are just saying that they can't play the role of an early adopter. Different people will adopt the tech at different times dependent on their situation and priorities.

The above example is solved when the long-range Konas/any-similar-car come into that person's price range. However, all proponents of EV need to understand there are people for whom it might never work, and there are some (like people living in terraces) who may be waiting even longer for the infrastructure to get built so they can hop on the hype train.

[stanglish]

oop north said:

Well this has proved to be an enormously amusing thread. Just got back from a couple of days in Edinburgh. Managed to charge for free while we were there and my ipace can get there on a full battery (or back on a full battery - have to charge on the way there, there, or on the way back or a combination thereof). So filling up at home will cost me £12. So that’s 450 miles done for £12 - actually it will be less than that as we have a wind turbine that makes our annual net electricity cost negative. Or it would have been about £80-90 in my wife’s freelander. Which doesn’t have 400bhp

I have never seen anybody on an EV forum say they have had anything but better tyre life from their EV than previous ICE cars - and that is my experience also (39k miles in i3, 20k in the ipace so far). Brake maintenance (and wear) is minimal.

All that said, there is a chance I may get a discovery or defender next time, with one child at uni in Edinburgh (380 mile round trip - have done more than a dozen times in a day in last two years) and one Aberystwyth (300 mile round trip - great - opposite direction and almost no charging for most of the route!) for the next three years, and a need to tow sheep trailer and occasionally off-road, there isn’t anything electric that ticks all the boxes. Will maybe get my wife an EV

Your situation sounds nice. An EV absolutely seems to work for your current situation which is nice for *you*. Everyone looking for a new iPace sized car who has circa-60k and off-road parking should definitely be looking towards an EV unless they have specific needs.

Unfortunately, even you have situations where an EV won't be any good until more development unlocks better charging infrastructure and ranges. A lot of people just need the used-market to receive the hand-me downs from folks like you and for supply to level out against demand.

EV threads are fun because you have people in both camps but fewer people with balanced views. In this thread you have ICE clots who can't work out that if you can charge an EV at home, it is a fantastically efficient way to travel. They also have some strange attachment to ICE for mundane appliance-based cars which is odd as we'll have the choice of ICE for fun for a good while yet.

On the other hand you have EV fanboys who likewise

1. Can't understand what it must be like for the little people to live in their terraced houses, without 40k+ to invest in a suitable EV
2. Think that everyone driving round in an ICE vehicle is a "bigot" whose "arguments against EV’s are pointless" and who simply needs to be told that "used EVs exist"
3. Think it's viable for people to run a car-full time by camping out at free chargers for many hours at a time.
4. Drive EVs with instant torque but describe them as having "linear power delivery" as though everyone in an ICE is driving an 80s Group C car.
5. Think their lardarse 2 ton plus lithium-jammed wagon is going to use brakes better because a man on an EV forum (bubble) said so. Ignoring the tyre companies who rightly point out that they're having to change the compound, construction and even the damn filling to make them comparable at a higher cost.

[86wasagoodyear]

stanglish said:

On the other hand you have EV fanboys who likewise

1. Can't understand what it must be like for the little people to live in their terraced houses, without 40k+ to invest in a suitable EV
2. Think that everyone driving round in an ICE vehicle is a "bigot" whose "arguments against EV’s are pointless" and who simply needs to be told that "used EVs exist"
3. Think it's viable for people to run a car-full time by camping out at free chargers for many hours at a time.
4. Drive EVs with instant torque but describe them as having "linear power delivery" as though everyone in an ICE is driving an 80s Group C car.
5. Think their lardarse 2 ton plus lithium-jammed wagon is going to use brakes better because a man on an EV forum (bubble) said so. Ignoring the tyre companies who rightly point out that they're having to change the compound, construction and even the damn filling to make them comparable at a higher cost.

/\/\ This, haha. Rarely does the ICE brigade (yes, that's me) tell the EV fanboys they can't or shouldn't have their EVs. So why do the EV lot tell us ICE fans that we shouldn't have what we want ? There are tons of reasons why no EV in existence works for me right now. I need to drive 1000km in a day regularly, cover plenty of distance at other times, must therefore refuel very quickly, need long range per fuelling, must never need to think about how or where I am going to refuel, live in a properly cold winter climate, can't always park at home or off street, can't afford to spend more than about 15k on buying a car, and don't have the job security to be willing to enter into a multi-year lease agreement committing to monthlies of £ a few hundred per month. Not all these things apply to all I know - but many do, especially the last 2. We are not all made of money, and we have jobs, kids etc to worry about. It's called real life in your middle age.

[essayer]

Surprised you didn’t put ‘regularly need to transport a sofa from Cornwall to the Highlands’ for the full EV bingo

[MB100]

Edited by MB100 on Sunday 4th July 16:40

[Onehp]

Those look like 21", not 20".

That 80x will be more like 2,3 tonnes...

Edited by Onehp on Monday 5th July 12:47

[Fiesta1.0L]

Dale487 said:

This article is about going to the countryside in an EV but I’ve long thought that an EV is possibly easier for those who live there compared to those who live there than the city; more likely to have off road parking close to the home power supply, which to me seems like the biggest issue bar the initial purchase price of the EV.

You'd think, but my friends place is in a small cluster of houses just outside a village in Sussex. The transformer in the corner of his field (fitted in the 60s) is 100A, so will support 3 home chargers (7kw) and nothing else whilst they are in use. Trouble is there's 7 houses/barns, several with electric heating, Agas and already there's a couple in one of the houses with 2 Teslas and 2 chargers.

Either there's a lot of expensive upgrading to come (as the oil heating most of the houses use is banned alongside petrol), or there's going to be serious rationing of car charging (or people having to spend ££££ on solar/batteries for themselves).

[dvs_dave]

Fiesta1.0L said:

You'd think, but my friends place is in a small cluster of houses just outside a village in Sussex. The transformer in the corner of his field (fitted in the 60s) is 100A, so will support 3 home chargers (7kw) and nothing else whilst they are in use. Trouble is there's 7 houses/barns, several with electric heating, Agas and already there's a couple in one of the houses with 2 Teslas and 2 chargers.

Either there's a lot of expensive upgrading to come (as the oil heating most of the houses use is banned alongside petrol), or there's going to be serious rationing of car charging (or people having to spend ££££ on solar/batteries for themselves).

Only a single phase transformer, not 3-phase? That would be unusual. A 3-phase 100A could theoretically support up to 72kW

[SidewaysSi]

That car sounds seriously boring.

[JonnyVTEC]

Harrison Bergeron said:

Max what’s the % tax on that diesel and how does that compare to anything else?

It’s loads, just like filthy smoking.

[JonnyVTEC]

mrfunex said:

Seems a very similar experience to Mr Metcalfe in an e-Pace. Undoubtedly the future, but I think I’ll wait.

Yep, EV fresh/ borderline clueless people handed a car to “review” as though it’s anything like real world. See Shmee in that Taycan for case in point.

[anonymous-user]

stanglish said:

"200 miles in a day" NOT "200 miles every day"

I know loads of people who have to do this for work, especially travelling to client sites where their clients are constantly changing. Or for Holidays this is super-common and the cost of hiring a larger family car is simply punitive.

Let's drop it to 140 miles though round-trip, which is pretty common. And let me play the role of a buyer here, who likes the Kona....

Ah, damn - I can't afford the more expensive one and it has no subsidy either making it a lot more. But I could get the cheaper one that does 168 miles a day and that works. Oh no, it actually doesn't when I consider the real-world figures, and the deterioration in winter, or that I might need to take a 5 mile extra detour to pick up the kids or some shopping on the way home. This is the real world.

You need to not get your back up every time someone says that EV for themselves won't work right now. Not everyone is denying that things won't change in time, most are just saying that they can't play the role of an early adopter. Different people will adopt the tech at different times dependent on their situation and priorities.

The above example is solved when the long-range Konas/any-similar-car come into that person's price range. However, all proponents of EV need to understand there are people for whom it might never work, and there are some (like people living in terraces) who may be waiting even longer for the infrastructure to get built so they can hop on the hype train.

er, moving the goal posts much?

you wrote, and i directly quote:

stanglish said:

If I'm skint, live in a terrace, and routinely drive 200 miles in a day it doesn't work for me for example. This is extreme but there are bunches of less obvious situations.

(my bold)

It's perfectly possible to use public charging to drive an EV 200 miles occasionally, hell, even probable once a week or more. As the Charging network improves (and literally every single day a new fast charger (or chargers) is going in somewhere in the UK thanks to absolutely massive investment by various hugely capable and extremely well financed companies)

If you do high mileages, leasing a modern EV is going to save you a fortune, and probably, if you are doing high mileages you are most probably doing them for work, so a zero tailpipe emissions car is also potentially going to have massive tax benefits for you or the company you work for)


the FACT is, the number of people for whom an EV won't work is actually really pretty small (in percentage terms) and the vast majority of the UK's passenger car buying customers can all buy an EV today and get around just fine. Next time you out, count the number of EVs you see. Thanks to ever increasing product range and availability, there are more EVs, and i suspect personally the sales of NON EV passcars are pretty poor right now. That said, it'll still take at least 10 years to move the majority of the fleet over, and you'll be able to buy and own an ICE (or hybrid) for years to come, but in reality, i'm going to suggest that most people are currently driving their last ICE passcar in the UK......

And if you need "5 extra miles of range" simply slow down!

Because EV consumption is pretty much directly tied to roadload (the powertrain itself is around 95% efficient!) you can massively extend your range by just slowing down. Real world example, i was 22 miles from home, had 25 miles range left, had to add 10 extra miles due to a crash, i simply cruised along A roads at 45, (which mostly was still faster than the other dawdlers) and got home with 12 miles range showing. Recently, a Renault Zoe was driven to new range record of 475 miles on a single charge, the the way they did that was simply to drive slowly!!)

5 miles is roughtly 1.25 kWh of energy for an efficient EV like the Kona. An amount delivered in 30 min on the slowest AC granny charger, and in about 1.5 minutes on the slowest AC fast charger!


"occasional hiring" an ICE for longer trips is exactly what we do , only owning an EV with an average 160 mile range! Yes, it can be expensive for those miles, but it's certainly not "punitive" because the EV is so cheap most of the car. Hell, after 5 years of EV ownership (total cost of last one over 5 years for everything (actually everything, insurance, depreciation, 'lecy, tax, servicing etc was £50.41 pence per month, insanely cheap for a premium car that'll hit 60 in sub 7 seconds) we often say we could simply hire an actual helicopter for our next holiday an STILL be better off overall



What we see time and time, and time again on these threads is people who have never tried, owned and critically, actually lived with an EV make up strings of slightly fantastic reasons as to why they "don't work" whilst those of us who have, simply get on with our lives, and do so fasters, cheaper, and more comfortably, and with the money we save, we buy a stupid fun ICE toy to keep in the garage for when we drive for fun, rather than to get places!

Fortunately, in a few short years, and again, i'm going to suggest people will be surprised by how fast this happens, it'll be so normal to drive an EV, not only will moaning about then loose its current fashion, it'll not even be a thing. It'll be like moanig about smartphones or music streaming or broadcast TV.......

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 5th July 07:29

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 5th July 07:32

[skyrover]

Max_Torque said:

i'm going to suggest that most people are currently driving their last ICE passcar in the UK......

I'll take that bet

Not invested in the industry are you?

[anonymous-user]

skyrover said:

Max_Torque said:

i'm going to suggest that most people are currently driving their last ICE passcar in the UK......

I'll take that bet

Not invested in the industry are you?

I should have been clearer to ensure the hard of thinking can keep up,

When i say "driving their last ICE car" i am talking about people who have reasonably recently just bought a new ICE and will in say 3 to 5 years, buy another new car and you'll note i clearly said "most" people. ie not everyone, but a majority.

People who drive old bangers, or for whom some old crappy derv rattler is the "hill they will die on", well, keep on climbing your hill, you're not at the top yet :-) Those people are not, and never have been, the people who buy the new cars and actually cause the UK passcar fleet to evolve.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 5th July 07:40

[skyrover]

Max_Torque said:

skyrover said:

Max_Torque said:

i'm going to suggest that most people are currently driving their last ICE passcar in the UK......

I'll take that bet

Not invested in the industry are you?

I should have been clearer to ensure the hard of thinking can keep up,

A. My point stands.
B. You come across as a bit of a zealot.

[Nickbrapp]

It seems the main complaint that everyone has is charging infrastructure which begs the question that once again, in the UK, why the hell do we cock everything up and do it so half arsed

Smart motorways? Half arsed
Putting in 1 or 2 chargers at motorway services - half arsed

Tesla’s boomed in popularity because they also put in loads of chargers which by default gave them a great market share, VW putting 2 in 400 Tesco’s hardly cuts it

You go go German and the Netherlands and they are everywhere, electric cars are almost the norm there, plus they get other benefits of getting to drive in the bus lanes, free parking etc.


If the government reslly wants people to have them they need to invest heavily and not just though grants, every street with a lamp post can have chargers, give people who have on street parking automatic permission to have a cable under the pavement put in, give them a space outside their house like disabled people do.

[cris9964]

They are an investment but Tesla has a great model. All the charging infrastructure you need.

I drive to west London for work. Pennies in home charging , no Congestion charge. 3 years and took it for a service. They tested the brake fluid and said it was fine for another year. Saving a fortune on tube and rail costs.

I take it everywhere. Without an engine or gearbox , I have no “mileage anxiety” - ie putting too many miles on my car.

I am lucky enough To have some analogue cars to drive too - but for smashing up to 100 miles away I take the Tesla every time. More than that my satnav in the car sends me to a Tesla charger - where free spaces are broadcast on the satnav in real-time.

[Maccmike8]

Trackdayer said:

Am I reading that right? £7 to add 60 miles worth of range in an EV?

That can't be right???

60 miles worth of range in a modern diesel costs £1.50 at the services???

Edited by Trackdayer on Saturday 3rd July 08:33

I dont know any modern diesel cars that do 60 miles per litre.

[JonnyVTEC]

Ill try helping here. A car will do around 2.5-4miles /kWh (smaller/lighter cars better consumption)

Ionity is like 69p /kWh
Instavolt 40p/kWh
Gridserve 30p / kWh
Normal home electricity 15p /kWh
Off peak cheap tarriff 5p/kWh.


But lets all use the top number because a journalist used it on ONE charge of ONE day as the running costs for an EV average over 2 years...

Of a 300mile trip its only gonna be the last 100 at that higher rate anyway, so take out any notion when you care comparing to the fix price entity that is petrol or diesel. Its like buying a round of drinks for your mates and saying your pint cost £12.

[essayer]

Exactly, our 250 mile Cornwall trip this week:
Left with 58kWh
Charged 33kWh on the way
Arrived with 21kWh usable remaining

We could have got away with charging 12kWh and spending £6.50ish to drive down but we were stopping anyway