RE: Lap time assault and battery | PH Footnote

RE: Lap time assault and battery | PH Footnote

Wednesday 22nd December 2021

Lap time assault and battery | PH Footnote

Porsche says it is working to balance electric range, performance and sustainability. It has a way to go



There's been a lot of talk about the real-world environmental benefits of buying a new battery-electric vehicle. We can argue about the variables, but the fact is you must cover a lot of miles in a large-battery EV (relative to an ICE car) before you offset the high CO2 emissions generated by its production. In a press release covering the subject, Porsche states that 'almost half of all the CO2 emissions generated during the lifecycle of an electric vehicle are produced at the manufacturing stage, which includes the extraction and processing of raw materials.'

Second to that is the car's usage. This depends largely on where the energy is coming from to charge it, the efficiency of the charging system and the efficiency of the motors and battery software. Recycling the car at the end of its life also adds to the CO2 debt, but that's by far the smallest piece of the pie.

So, it follows that the biggest gains, in terms of reducing CO2, come from making the battery smaller - less CO2 from the production of the battery and also less energy used to cart all that weight around. However, that's to be balanced with usability, which can be distilled as dynamics and range. As Porsche points out 'the size of the battery must be right to ensure that these vehicles meet customers' expectations and requirements.'



Most journeys are short. Typically, people drive fewer than 50 miles a day, and 80 per cent of journeys in an average week are under 280 miles. There are a growing number of small-battery EVs that cover off the typical daily trips, but Porsche customers tend to cover the longer distances, too, and expect to do so quickly. Range is obviously important, then, and it's still the main concern for those contemplating biting the bullet and going electric. How, then, does a manufacturer like Porsche manage the compromise between becoming net carbon neutral by 2030, with supplying cars that meet its buyers' needs? Using today's battery tech as a constant, the first stage is finding the ideal compromise of battery size, dynamic performance and range.

To do this, Porsche has been simulating lap times around the Nordschleife using different battery configurations. As a base, it took a fictional Taycan Turbo S weighing 2,419kg with an 85.1kWh battery. In theory it would do the lap in 7:39.5 minutes, hit 0-62mph in 2.92 seconds and 0-124mph in 9.43 seconds. Reduce the battery size to 70 kWh and the weight drops down to 2,310kg. Yet the reduction in power means that the Taycan takes an extra seven tenths of a second to complete the lap, with a time of 7:40.2 minutes. 0-62mph takes 2.90 seconds (slightly quicker) and 0-124mph in 9.51 seconds (slightly slower).

Conversely, if it increased the battery size to 100kWh and added more power, the car would be slower all round. The added weight drops the lap time to 7:42.4 minutes and decreases the acceleration to 0-62mph in 3.04 seconds and 0-124mph in 9.71 seconds. Increasing the battery size to 130kWh magnifies this: 7:48.2 minutes, 3.28 seconds, and 10.48 seconds respectively.



A smaller battery, then, is the best option for reducing CO2 emissions, the medium-sized battery delivers the best driving dynamics and the larger batteries, generally, offer a greater range and therefore shorter journey times. By equipping the Taycan with 800-volt DC charging, which means it can add 60 miles of range in five minutes, tips the balance back towards the mid-size, with the optimal capacity working out to be 100kWh.

Porsche says that 'Future battery developments will continue to enhance driving dynamics and charging times, and we can expect even greater progress in terms of reducing CO2 emissions. The second-generation electric vehicles that have not yet been launched will generate around a quarter less carbon dioxide during their lifecycle than the first-generation models."

The problem with all this is that Tesla, still arguably Porsche's chief rival, is already ahead of the curve on battery software and motor efficiency. For example, its forthcoming Model S Long Range has a 100kWh battery (larger than the Taycan's 93.4kWh) yet the new Model S is said to weigh 2,069kg - 301kg less than the Taycan Turbo S. It's also claimed to use much less energy per mile (as Teslas typically do) and therefore it has a longer range: 405 miles versus the Taycan's 258 miles. The Taycan is by far the best electric car to drive, yet clearly it can't claim to be the most efficient. And while Porsche's legacy on internal combustion competes with the very best, there is scant evidence so far that it is pushing the boundaries when it comes to fully electric powertrains. Juggling its current technology to provide the best spread of performance and productivity is plainly necessary - admirable even, given the dynamic results it has achieved - but we await the kind of breakthrough it can truly boast about. Only then will longer ranges and significantly lighter cars result, to the lasting benefit of the environment and drivers both.



Author
Discussion

virgilio

Original Poster:

426 posts

146 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
The real question that incumbent manufacturers should answer is how to equal Tesla’s weight and fuel consumption savings? Like for like the difference in these fields remains astonishing: the M3 is 2-300kg lighter than its equally performing rivals (it weighs the same as the much much slower id3, with 2wd…); same if not more for model S. Energy consumption is around 180wh/km for tesla vs 220-230 for equally performing rivals.
Tesla may have the perceived quality of a cheap microwave oven, but the technical achievement remains impressive. And I find it very surprising that the likes of Porsche did not manage to at least copy and equal tesla’s tech.

Kawasicki

13,091 posts

236 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
I work with German engineers. Some of them benchmark battery boxes used by the competition, and tell me that they would prefer to use less batteries in oder to design a more high quality battery box. Other battery engineers tell me they have done their tests and decided they don’t want to push the voltage range of the cells so far.

So, maybe it is a conscious decision not to go as far as the competition, and not a lack of technical know-how.

virgilio

Original Poster:

426 posts

146 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
Just to clarify, I am not a fan of Tesla: I bought a M3LR only because it had no reasonable alternatives at that price point. I am just puzzled at seeing porsche outperformed and outpriced in a way that I haven’t seen before. This is far worse than Nissan 300ZX TT outpacing 944 turbos…

Distiller_DXB

215 posts

165 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
Just a guess: The Euro-BEVs are closer to traditional cars in their approach. Just looking at Tesla, they really treat cars as an appliance. Can't imagine Porsche or other Germans doing that. And then Teslas don't have any options and thus no modularity. And they don't have the German high-speed requirement. Totally different approach.

virgilio

Original Poster:

426 posts

146 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
Distiller_DXB said:
Just a guess: The Euro-BEVs are closer to traditional cars in their approach. Just looking at Tesla, they really treat cars as an appliance. Can't imagine Porsche or other Germans doing that. And then Teslas don't have any options and thus no modularity. And they don't have the German high-speed requirement. Totally different approach.
taycan’s and tesla’s top speed are similar (except for tesla’s plaid whch is quicker). And I am not talking about price, so options are irrelevant: I only refer to weight and consumption, which have always been traditional car engineering obsessions since 1886.

Oso

239 posts

152 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
What a load of tripe. Another Porsche press release on PH.

leakymanifold

61 posts

87 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
I've read that whilst Tesla does well in the tests, their real world range isn't that different to the competitors, like for like (battery capacity)...so the discussion about optimised software in teslas gets overly hyped when the real difference isn't actually that large.

S54B32

7,543 posts

169 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
Oso said:
What a load of tripe. Another Porsche press release on PH.
are you new here?

Krikkit

26,535 posts

182 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
virgilio said:
The real question that incumbent manufacturers should answer is how to equal Tesla’s weight and fuel consumption savings? Like for like the difference in these fields remains astonishing: the M3 is 2-300kg lighter than its equally performing rivals (it weighs the same as the much much slower id3, with 2wd…); same if not more for model S. Energy consumption is around 180wh/km for tesla vs 220-230 for equally performing rivals.
Tesla may have the perceived quality of a cheap microwave oven, but the technical achievement remains impressive. And I find it very surprising that the likes of Porsche did not manage to at least copy and equal tesla’s tech.
This is the biggest barrier to their cars though - often the quality isn't there, they shortcut non-drivetrain components and don't really care when it goes wrong... The drivetrain though, incredibly well engineered.

anonymous-user

55 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
Oso said:
What a load of tripe. Another Porsche press release on PH.
A press release that says its competitor is better in certain areas?

If that was a Porsche press release, and I was Porsche's CEO, I'd be firing my marketing dept lol

big_rob_sydney

3,405 posts

195 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
And to discuss the impact of CO2 in building a BEV replacement??

Did it occur to the writer that replacing and ICE with another ICE is not exactly as if the new ICE magically dropped out of the sky with zero impact? Useless preamble on a Porsche-centric article.

Li-Ion batteries will change rapidly in the next 10 years. Competitors are talking about solid state batteries, and the change in weight characteristics of SSB's will allow design changes. Keep batteries the same size but allow double/triple the range? Or shrink the battery pack for the same range, but much lighter and differently packaged vehicles?

I would think being a car designer in the next 10 years would actually be a really fun job.

Jon_S_Rally

3,410 posts

89 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
Oso said:
What a load of tripe. Another Porsche press release on PH.
Not really.

Even so, perhaps you'd like to pay a monthly subscription so they didn't need to have promoted content? No? Thought not.

simon-tigjs

129 posts

98 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
I wonder if the future of electric cars actually won't be hydrogen. arguably one of the most clever bits of recent electric cars was the REX i3 Built from the ground up , its relatively light , even with the REX and can, if required just keep going. it uses lots of carbon fibre and recycled material and was a brave attempt at the future
So what if instead of a 600cc petrol engine you had an equivalent hydrogen fuelled engine that was able to keep topping up the batteries. ?
One of the problems with hydrogen are the heavy tanks so a smaller engine needs a smaller tank and smaller fuel cell...also expensive !, but the offset in the engine weight and size is the smaller number of batteries and reduced range problems. Also as batteries improve..wait for the new salt water battery..and solid battery.. then the whole ball game will change

bluesierra

146 posts

97 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
Lots to digest there, much of it interesting and/ or positive.

In a press release covering the subject, Porsche states that 'almost half of all the CO2 emissions generated during the lifecycle of an electric vehicle are produced at the manufacturing stage
Really good to see this being explicitly called out. This idea that electric cars will single-handedly save the world is nonsense, and governments need to recognise that reducing churn is a key part of minimising emissions (ie not trying to get everyone into new electric vehicles in a really short space of time).

Also good to see Porsche taking seriously the idea that cars need to be lighter if we're serious about reducing total emissions and energy use. Their benchmark of 2 tons is probably nowhere near where PHers would want it to be, but at least it's a start.

Tesla, still arguably Porsche's chief rival, is already ahead of the curve on battery software and motor efficiency. For example, its forthcoming Model S Long Range has a 100kWh battery (larger than the Taycan's 93.4kWh) yet the new Model S is said to weigh 2,069kg - 301kg less than the Taycan Turbo S.
Also interesting stuff; really just illustrating the differences between building an electric car like a car company (focus on quality and getting everything right, but make it far too heavy in the process) and building an electric car like a software company (launch a Minimum Viable Product, using customers as guinea pigs and update it as you go). I'm really not a fan of Tesla, but in many ways the big car firms should be learning from them how to be more nimble and produce good enough cars sooner.

Drakey52

115 posts

142 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
bluesierra said:
Lots to digest there, much of it interesting and/ or positive.

In a press release covering the subject, Porsche states that 'almost half of all the CO2 emissions generated during the lifecycle of an electric vehicle are produced at the manufacturing stage
Really good to see this being explicitly called out. This idea that electric cars will single-handedly save the world is nonsense, and governments need to recognise that reducing churn is a key part of minimising emissions (ie not trying to get everyone into new electric vehicles in a really short space of time).

Also good to see Porsche taking seriously the idea that cars need to be lighter if we're serious about reducing total emissions and energy use. Their benchmark of 2 tons is probably nowhere near where PHers would want it to be, but at least it's a start.

Tesla, still arguably Porsche's chief rival, is already ahead of the curve on battery software and motor efficiency. For example, its forthcoming Model S Long Range has a 100kWh battery (larger than the Taycan's 93.4kWh) yet the new Model S is said to weigh 2,069kg - 301kg less than the Taycan Turbo S.
Also interesting stuff; really just illustrating the differences between building an electric car like a car company (focus on quality and getting everything right, but make it far too heavy in the process) and building an electric car like a software company (launch a Minimum Viable Product, using customers as guinea pigs and update it as you go). I'm really not a fan of Tesla, but in many ways the big car firms should be learning from them how to be more nimble and produce good enough cars sooner.
In time, I expect the ridiculous politically driven BIK policies (in the UK at least) will be seen as ill-advised environmentally and economically as the push to diesel company cars 30 years ago. In the meantime I'm slightly envious of people getting the performance of some very good cars so cheap. Since I've been out of company car schemes for 20+ years now, I'll keep on with my decade old secondhand petrol car purchasing and consider my planetary impact that way...

Byker28i

60,017 posts

218 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
Tesla are ahead with their battery technology, but it's no surprise to see Porsche's release saying their current battery provision is their best compromise.

Global Nomad

79 posts

82 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
big_rob_sydney said:
And to discuss the impact of CO2 in building a BEV replacement??

Li-Ion batteries will change rapidly in the next 10 years. Competitors are talking about solid state batteries, and the change in weight characteristics of SSB's will allow design changes. Keep batteries the same size but allow double/triple the range? Or shrink the battery pack for the same range, but much lighter and differently packaged vehicles?

I would think being a car designer in the next 10 years would actually be a really fun job.
The aspect not mentioned is the charging time - customers are demanding range becasue they dont want to charge for 30-60 mins on a good day in the middle of the journey. Once that comes down to 5-10mins with high numbers of reliable charging points then the batteries and built in range can be reduced with the benefits to weight and efficiency as well as embodied co2.

unpc

2,837 posts

214 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
Tesla are ahead with their battery technology, but it's no surprise to see Porsche's release saying their current battery provision is their best compromise.
It's not just their battery technology though. They are way more efficient and a load lighter. Considering the legacy OEMs have had many years to catch up they don't seem to have closed the gap at all. Add in the supercharger network which is relatively painless to use and it tips more in Tesla's favour. I appreciate they're not everyone's cup of tea, but they have nailed the EV and no one else seems able to catch up.

Talking about ring times is an irrelevant distraction.

J4CKO

41,608 posts

201 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
virgilio said:
Just to clarify, I am not a fan of Tesla: I bought a M3LR only because it had no reasonable alternatives at that price point. I am just puzzled at seeing porsche outperformed and outpriced in a way that I haven’t seen before. This is far worse than Nissan 300ZX TT outpacing 944 turbos…
Why wouldn't a Nissan 300ZX outpace a 944 turbo, it was had more power and cylinders ?

Same with Tesla, they have several years on Porsche in the EV game.

runnerbean 14

274 posts

135 months

Wednesday 22nd December 2021
quotequote all
IMHO no other manufacturer has yet come anywhere close to the weight / performance / efficiency combination represented by the Tesla Model 3 LR. The car is far from perfect but the build quality of my second one is definitely better and the range is now adequate for 95% of my day-to-day journeys.

However my annual road mileage has halved to 18,000, partly due to work and partly because of Covid. I do also have access to other cars for those occasional long and fast road/touring trips (usually abroad) where an EV would still be a bit problematic.