RE: McMurtry Spéirling takes FOS Hillclimb record
Discussion
millen said:
Hard to imagine that McMurtry would put in all that fan development just to get a 1-sec advantage on initial acceleration.
The "fan" is their USP. It's an idea that's been around in motorsports for a long time, but has been banned and hence un-useable. I'm not surprised that a group of mainly ex-f1 engineers has applied this to a car that is not currently limited by any regulations (note, the prototype wears a number plate, however the cabin sightlines i suspect will not pass full type approval as they stand - A pillars far too large, drivers head too low).So once you have a USP, then you make it "work" on your car no matter how good or bad it is. If it really could apply 2 tonnes of DF at any speed then there would be no need for a rear wing or front splitter, but both of those are fitted to this vehicle.
The complexities of an active low pressure underfloor system are large and subject to massive variation. For example, what happens when you drive over a pothole (and some of our potholes are pretty big these days!) or what about those lateral joins in our concrete motorways, or what about a drain cover / rainwater gully grid?
I simply don't beleive a valid safety case exists on a road car for such a system.
So the system gets them lots of attention, gives them a USP, but no actual data has been released as to the systems effectiveness beyond web claims.
It's basically the same as the "DRS" button we fitted to the Mclaren P1. Absolutely pointless but there to give the owners/drivers something to talk about........
Max_Torque said:
millen said:
Hard to imagine that McMurtry would put in all that fan development just to get a 1-sec advantage on initial acceleration.
The "fan" is their USP. It's an idea that's been around in motorsports for a long time, but has been banned and hence un-useable. I'm not surprised that a group of mainly ex-f1 engineers has applied this to a car that is not currently limited by any regulations (note, the prototype wears a number plate, however the cabin sightlines i suspect will not pass full type approval as they stand - A pillars far too large, drivers head too low).So once you have a USP, then you make it "work" on your car no matter how good or bad it is. If it really could apply 2 tonnes of DF at any speed then there would be no need for a rear wing or front splitter, but both of those are fitted to this vehicle.
The complexities of an active low pressure underfloor system are large and subject to massive variation. For example, what happens when you drive over a pothole (and some of our potholes are pretty big these days!) or what about those lateral joins in our concrete motorways, or what about a drain cover / rainwater gully grid?
I simply don't beleive a valid safety case exists on a road car for such a system.
So the system gets them lots of attention, gives them a USP, but no actual data has been released as to the systems effectiveness beyond web claims.
It's basically the same as the "DRS" button we fitted to the Mclaren P1. Absolutely pointless but there to give the owners/drivers something to talk about........
Max_Torque said:
cidered77 said:
Seem to making a lot of noise and doing a lot to the air around it for just a simple gimmick eh? Went rather quickly too….
The fact the fan as throwing stuff out the back actually shows it WASN'T working as well as it could!!!I get a lot of what you’re saying when it comes to operating as a practical road car. Just as I get your arguments on why the Valkyrie will be a rubbish road car.
I also accept the 2,000kg claim is likely quite punchy.
But “gimmick”? It has licence plates, prototype or not, and it just set a time that there is at least a question mark whether would be beaten by a full blown BHC top class car.
Put another way, if their claimed potential 1:35 at Silverstone comes off …. You know as well as I do (and know more than me I am sure) that you cannot suggest those sort of times on just power alone; it needs incredibly well developed aero to go quicker than even an LMP1 car of a few years back, despite similar weight and power … and licence plate. And the wings it does have aren’t that.
That is a long long long way from “gimmick”, surely. If it’s done, which based on Sunday I’d say looks likely…
otolith said:
Unreal said:
Perhaps he could clarify that then? He made reference to a lot of mechanical issues and referred to the basic principles as primitive. He also talked about feeling, which isn't the same as hearing afaik. I'm aware my Yaris has sound enhancement and I don't like that either but the car itself is nothing like an EV apart from the wheel at each corner. I suspect the sound enhancement is simply a way to counter noise regulations rather than a way to make the car sound like something it's not.
I read it not as saying "you shouldn't love those old mechanical things" so much as "it's pointless to hold onto those attributes when using an objectively better technology which doesn't have them". He's right that those things we like about ICE are largely the result of the powertrain's deficiencies and our workarounds for them. The artificial sound enhancement these days is about noise regs making it harder to arrange intake and exhaust to make nice noises but also about compensating for down-sizing, down-speeding, reduced cylinder count, turbocharging, catalysts, particulate filters. There is some similar work being done with EVs to make the whine they naturally make more appealing.
Looking at gearboxes, again, how many moving parts? I've had gearboxes fail on me, and had to fight tooth and nail to get it repaired under warranty. Many of these real world ownership experiences don't come in when discussing the merits of EV vs ICE in a purely technical sense, but I can assure you that the ownership experience of an ICE car comes with all sorts of issues that are entirely missing from a BEV.
Powertrain deficiencies and workarounds are all well and good to try and talk through and excuse as a theoretical exercise, but when your ICE car borks an engine or gearbox, well, it's not exactly theoretical anymore, is it?
big_rob_sydney said:
Powertrain deficiencies and workarounds are all well and good to try and talk through and excuse as a theoretical exercise, but when your ICE car borks an engine or gearbox, well, it's not exactly theoretical anymore, is it?
My parents recently sold their Subaru VX for spares or repair a year or so after paying 6k for it after the crappy CVT box died. I paid for a new torque converter on mine last year. You're preaching to the choir on that one.Sway said:
Tbh, I do see Max's point on the fan being something of a gimmick - especially for the road car.
However, I don't think the fan is the USP. The size/weight is, in comparison to pretty much every other EV on the market - which are all huge and heavy.
my point though and why i'm very much not in Team Gimmick, is a "sub 1,000 kg" (so high 900s then, else it would be quoted!) 1,000bhp per ton car of small dimensions and a licence plate would still be nowhere near the sort of Silverstone laptimes claimed... nooo way. I can't recall any road car or even any road legal car ever dropping below 2 minutes at that circuit. GT2 RS for example wouldn't beat a 2:05. However, I don't think the fan is the USP. The size/weight is, in comparison to pretty much every other EV on the market - which are all huge and heavy.
You need mega-aero and super trick race dampers/setup, etc. That fan just has to be filling in gap between "really fast" and "different universe to any road registered car ever seen before ever" to even think of a 1:35.
I've done a 2:10 there, and that was pretty bloody fast i can tell you......
cidered77 said:
Sway said:
Tbh, I do see Max's point on the fan being something of a gimmick - especially for the road car.
However, I don't think the fan is the USP. The size/weight is, in comparison to pretty much every other EV on the market - which are all huge and heavy.
my point though and why i'm very much not in Team Gimmick, is a "sub 1,000 bhp" (so high 900s then, else it would be quoted!) 1,000bhp per ton car of small dimensions and a licence plate would still be nowhere near the sort of Silverstone laptimes claimed... nooo way. I can't recall any road car or even any road legal car ever dropping below 2 minutes at that circuit. GT2 RS for example wouldn't beat a 2:05. However, I don't think the fan is the USP. The size/weight is, in comparison to pretty much every other EV on the market - which are all huge and heavy.
You need mega-aero and super trick race dampers/setup, etc. That fan just has to be filling in gap between "really fast" and "different universe to any road registered car ever seen before ever" to even think of a 1:35.
I've done a 2:10 there, and that was pretty bloody fast i can tell you......
However, I don't see the track car being the 'product' they're looking to sell. It's the one that's generating a tonne of marketing though...
That's why I err on the side of 'gimmick' - it's not something you'll be allowed to use on a track day. It's not a system you can use racing - but it is a system that can generate a huge amount of publicity through records/lap times/etc.
Sway said:
cidered77 said:
Sway said:
Tbh, I do see Max's point on the fan being something of a gimmick - especially for the road car.
However, I don't think the fan is the USP. The size/weight is, in comparison to pretty much every other EV on the market - which are all huge and heavy.
my point though and why i'm very much not in Team Gimmick, is a "sub 1,000 bhp" (so high 900s then, else it would be quoted!) 1,000bhp per ton car of small dimensions and a licence plate would still be nowhere near the sort of Silverstone laptimes claimed... nooo way. I can't recall any road car or even any road legal car ever dropping below 2 minutes at that circuit. GT2 RS for example wouldn't beat a 2:05. However, I don't think the fan is the USP. The size/weight is, in comparison to pretty much every other EV on the market - which are all huge and heavy.
You need mega-aero and super trick race dampers/setup, etc. That fan just has to be filling in gap between "really fast" and "different universe to any road registered car ever seen before ever" to even think of a 1:35.
I've done a 2:10 there, and that was pretty bloody fast i can tell you......
However, I don't see the track car being the 'product' they're looking to sell. It's the one that's generating a tonne of marketing though...
That's why I err on the side of 'gimmick' - it's not something you'll be allowed to use on a track day. It's not a system you can use racing - but it is a system that can generate a huge amount of publicity through records/lap times/etc.
Not dissimilar to these various italian "track day focused" cars that would fail every noise check in the country... needs a private track to really experience it. They're still cool though
cidered77 said:
my point though and why i'm very much not in Team Gimmick, is a "sub 1,000 bhp" (so high 900s then, else it would be quoted!) 1,000bhp per ton car of small dimensions and a licence plate would still be nowhere near the sort of Silverstone laptimes claimed... nooo way. I can't recall any road car or even any road legal car ever dropping below 2 minutes at that circuit. GT2 RS for example wouldn't beat a 2:05.
You need mega-aero and super trick race dampers/setup, etc. That fan just has to be filling in gap between "really fast" and "different universe to any road registered car ever seen before ever" to even think of a 1:35.
I've done a 2:10 there, and that was pretty bloody fast i can tell you......
I think you're vastly overplaying the license plate thing, it's incredibly easy to in the UK to get a lax/bent MOT/IVA etc, or just change the car afterwards with non approved parts and keep the plates on. The Speirling in that form isn't going to get type approved or even be able to get an IVA pass. And the times you are quoting for the Speirling are with slicks, not road tyres.You need mega-aero and super trick race dampers/setup, etc. That fan just has to be filling in gap between "really fast" and "different universe to any road registered car ever seen before ever" to even think of a 1:35.
I've done a 2:10 there, and that was pretty bloody fast i can tell you......
Olivera said:
cidered77 said:
my point though and why i'm very much not in Team Gimmick, is a "sub 1,000 bhp" (so high 900s then, else it would be quoted!) 1,000bhp per ton car of small dimensions and a licence plate would still be nowhere near the sort of Silverstone laptimes claimed... nooo way. I can't recall any road car or even any road legal car ever dropping below 2 minutes at that circuit. GT2 RS for example wouldn't beat a 2:05.
You need mega-aero and super trick race dampers/setup, etc. That fan just has to be filling in gap between "really fast" and "different universe to any road registered car ever seen before ever" to even think of a 1:35.
I've done a 2:10 there, and that was pretty bloody fast i can tell you......
I think you're vastly overplaying the license plate thing, it's incredibly easy to in the UK to get a lax/bent MOT/IVA etc, or just change the car afterwards with non approved parts and keep the plates on. The Speirling in that form isn't going to get type approved or even be able to get an IVA pass. And the times you are quoting for the Speirling are with slicks, not road tyres.You need mega-aero and super trick race dampers/setup, etc. That fan just has to be filling in gap between "really fast" and "different universe to any road registered car ever seen before ever" to even think of a 1:35.
I've done a 2:10 there, and that was pretty bloody fast i can tell you......
cidered77 said:
..... even with slicks, find me a road registered car that will lap Silverstone GP under 2 minutes. Before we even talk about 1:35s...
As I said, the rest of the car in that form isn't road legal either, for example a fan that kicks up road debris onto the following car, or the issues that Max_Torque pointed out.Olivera said:
cidered77 said:
..... even with slicks, find me a road registered car that will lap Silverstone GP under 2 minutes. Before we even talk about 1:35s...
As I said, the rest of the car in that form isn't road legal either, for example a fan that kicks up road debris onto the following car, or the issues that Max_Torque pointed out.but either way - this car, is road legal. As in it can be driven on the road, legally. Maybe some bits switched off, but they could be switched on when at a suitable private track.
And i love it, and won't have my chips p***ed on by the internet, so there!
cidered77 said:
Olivera said:
cidered77 said:
Knowing someone who knows him, and has asked .,, he reckons his car would be quicker, high 37s/low 38s, but also the McMurty has a lot more in it too.
Indeed, and then there's the fact that a hillclimb car was developed to meet a set of motorsport rules and regulations, whereas the McMurty is a pure prototype that has to adhere to nothing. If the motorsport regs were tossed out for an ICE car and someone were so inclined, what could an ICE car do up the hill - 30 seconds flat? The top hillclimb cars are 450kg and 700bhp, so with a turbo engine on nitrous plus a fan design it should be possible to get 1000bhp (more than the McMurty) at half the weight (500kg).Conventional wisdom is EVs are heavy.,. But the motors aren’t, the batteries are. And you only need enough energy for going up a hill.
Then throw in the fact with a much shorter course you spend a higher percentage of it accelerating from rest than a circuit, and EVs will always win there , then I think you’d pick EV and a fan…
The McMurtry wasn’t built to a ruleset, but is road registered and was can reasonably assume has more range than one trip up the hill….
Now for a hillclimb car that you can justify in changing cells after 100 miles (rather than after 150,000+ miles like a normal EV), you could reduce the size considerably, but you're still limited by the safety limits of the cells. A good thought experiment I'll take up with my Post-Doc cell team
Chris Harris did a back-to-back with the McLaren Senna and the 650s GT3 at Silverstone, recording 2:09 and 2:03 respectively on a one-lap shootout.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-kK2cWDcWU
What’s faster than the Senna and has type approval, 991 GT2 RS MR maybe?
If they can get the McMurty well under two minutes on road-legal tyres, that in itself would be mighty impressive - even if it’s unlikely to be produced for the road with the big fans underneath!
For reference, the Formula 2 lap record at Silverstone is 1:38.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-kK2cWDcWU
What’s faster than the Senna and has type approval, 991 GT2 RS MR maybe?
If they can get the McMurty well under two minutes on road-legal tyres, that in itself would be mighty impressive - even if it’s unlikely to be produced for the road with the big fans underneath!
For reference, the Formula 2 lap record at Silverstone is 1:38.
Sway said:
However, I don't think the fan is the USP. The size/weight is, in comparison to pretty much every other EV on the market - which are all huge and heavy.
But it's small and light because it has one seat, no luggage space, zero concesions to practicalities or useability. A Caterham is lighter and has TWO seats remember!Road EVs are huge and heavy because once you make an actual, practical road car, big enough for more than one small person and their luggage, and that passes crash tests, and has things like heating, a radio, ABS, and all the other stuff we now demand for our road cars, you end up with a bigger, heavier car. Take my i3s. Carbon body, ally subframes, small wheels/tyres, seats 4 in comfort with a bit of boot space and passes all crash tests and has a decent feature content, and it weighs 1,300kg and it itself is probably the lightest you could make such a car.
Alternatively, what about a Twizzy? 1 seat, tiny amount of space, 450kg. They didn't exactly fly off the shelves, especially in the cold,wet and dark UK (probably work better in the south of france than the south of london tbh)
The only really novel thing about this car is substituting the fan for draggy wings, which makes sense as a race car, but for a road car, you just delete the wings entirely because DF on a road car is stupid, dangerous and un-usable.
Max_Torque said:
But it's small and light because it has one seat, no luggage space, zero concesions to practicalities or useability. A Caterham is lighter and has TWO seats remember!
Road EVs are huge and heavy because once you make an actual, practical road car, big enough for more than one small person and their luggage, and that passes crash tests, and has things like heating, a radio, ABS, and all the other stuff we now demand for our road cars, you end up with a bigger, heavier car. Take my i3s. Carbon body, ally subframes, small wheels/tyres, seats 4 in comfort with a bit of boot space and passes all crash tests and has a decent feature content, and it weighs 1,300kg and it itself is probably the lightest you could make such a car.
Alternatively, what about a Twizzy? 1 seat, tiny amount of space, 450kg. They didn't exactly fly off the shelves, especially in the cold,wet and dark UK (probably work better in the south of france than the south of london tbh)
I remain hopeful that the EV revolution will make it easier, not harder, for low volume niche manufacturers to deliver things that the mainstream motor industry can't or won't make. Before we end up with each manufacturer offering a choice of 18 very slightly different crossovers and sod all else on the market. Road EVs are huge and heavy because once you make an actual, practical road car, big enough for more than one small person and their luggage, and that passes crash tests, and has things like heating, a radio, ABS, and all the other stuff we now demand for our road cars, you end up with a bigger, heavier car. Take my i3s. Carbon body, ally subframes, small wheels/tyres, seats 4 in comfort with a bit of boot space and passes all crash tests and has a decent feature content, and it weighs 1,300kg and it itself is probably the lightest you could make such a car.
Alternatively, what about a Twizzy? 1 seat, tiny amount of space, 450kg. They didn't exactly fly off the shelves, especially in the cold,wet and dark UK (probably work better in the south of france than the south of london tbh)
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