RE: The best used electric cars to buy right now
Discussion
GT9 said:
Lots of smart, well researched and well written points.
Great post that. If you don't mind I might save it for the next time someone starts banging on about hydrgen use in passenger cars and EV only being a short term answer.
I expect someone will be along in the EV subforum shortly. Usually get one a week.
Charlie_1 said:
D4rez said:
That's not correct, as posted above - it's just one manufacturer. Other independent studies from universities and other OEMs have found they are 70% better than an equivalent ICE (Model 3 vs C220d for example is 68% better lifetime) today. I understand where you're coming from but it's not factually accurate - especially not the street emissions - hydrogen and particularly synthetic fuels are as bad as conventional fuel. No difference in exhaust content.
They are not planet savers on their own but across multiple countries commited to the switch and seen as part of all of the many, many other de-carbonisation activities happening right now, they are part of the solution
umm on Hydrogen from a US gov website , there are others , and you want me to accept your EV 'facts' lolThey are not planet savers on their own but across multiple countries commited to the switch and seen as part of all of the many, many other de-carbonisation activities happening right now, they are part of the solution
About half of the U.S. population lives in areas where air pollution levels are high enough to negatively impact public health and the environment. Emissions from gasoline and diesel vehicles—such as nitrogen oxides, hydrocarbons, and particulate matter—are a major source of this pollution. Hydrogen-powered fuel cell electric vehicles emit none of these harmful substances—only water (H2O) and warm air.
Edited by Charlie_1 on Friday 5th August 09:21
Jex said:
ICE cars are a problem, EVs aren’t the answer and neither is hydrogen?
Does anyone know if horses fart methane?
https://horses.extension.org/what-is-the-carbon-fo...Does anyone know if horses fart methane?
"“the biomass of a horse is a carbon sink in the same way as the biomass of a tree in a forest is a carbon ‘sink.’”
The digestive process of horses produces far less methane than the digestive system of cattle and sheep. Cattle, sheep, and certain other grazing animals are known as ruminants because their gut contains a rumen."
P.S. Please note this is first article on google, I have not checked references, sources or the political persuasion of the author therefore please avoid a tail spin of abuse.
Edited by Wonderman on Friday 5th August 16:58
J4CKO said:
Model 3's are everywhere now, from scarcity a couple of years back they are like mondeos used to be in terms of frequency of seeing them, do they just work out cheaper than say a 3 series or similar ? Or is it the novelty, running costs that convert folk ?
They’re pitched at the right level to a make lot of sense for people in mgmt positions to take them as company cars, which is probably why your seeing loads of them around. Now the novelty has worn off the Polestar 2 seems to be taking its place. JD said:
J4CKO said:
do they just work out cheaper than say a 3 series or similar ? Or is it the novelty, running costs that convert folk ?
Or you know, the more obvious answer, in that people think they are better. Still the novelty factor there as well but think that will wane a bit based on sheer numbers.
I could lease one but no point for the mileage I do and I have a strong suspicion, being a petrolhead I would regret it after the initial period. I am quite pro EV but not sure I want one, not yet anyway and would replace the wife’s car, not mine.
Tesla nailed it but the rest are catching up, the Kia EV6 GT I think is going to steal sales from higher model 3’s and maybe even the S, certainly the Mustang EV.
It’s gone from “oh look an EV”, to seeing multiples in a row, wonder when we will get to “oh look an ICE car” ?
J4CKO said:
I could lease one but no point for the mileage I do and I have a strong suspicion, being a petrolhead I would regret it after the initial period. I am quite pro EV but not sure I want one, not yet anyway and would replace the wife’s car, not mine.
that's the point I'm coming to TBH. At this point the Challenger is going nowhere however Mrs DG's car is due back next year so to get rid of that and the next car could be EV also losing the family hack does make a man-maths case for it (factor in petrol costs saved vs increased monthlies...)GT9 said:
I think what you are trying to say is that EVs move emissions from urban areas to power stations.
There is some truth in that statement, but as always, it's far more nuanced.
Just considering carbon dioxide first, this has been covered so many time already in this thread, and whilst I appreciate that this thread takes a long time to read, there were several 'killer revelations' posted yesterday that have already been debunked.
Power stations in the UK that burn natural gas to produce electricity can achieve up to 60% thermal efficiency. This is much higher than the average efficiency that an engine in a car can achieve over a typical usage pattern. By a factor of 2 or more.
You also need to consider that the upstream energy consumption (and there carbon production) of refining and producing liquid fuels for cars is significantly higher than what is required to get natural gas to a power station.
Additional things that need to be factored in:
Losses between power station and EV battery
Losses in EV drivetrain and energy recovery by regenerative braking
Losses in ICE transmission and drivetrain
Relative carbon footprint of the production phase between an EV and an ICE
Factor all of those things in and you will find that even if ALL electricity to charge EVs was generated from natural gas, the lifetime carbon footprint between the two would generally be lower for the EV.
The fact that half of our electricity is already renewably sourced means that the lifetime carbon footprint of a UK EV in 2020 is at least half that of an ICE.
What about other harmful emissions?
Again, because the EV pathway consumes far less fuel per mile than the ICE, and the nature of the fuel and the combustion process is very different at a power station, the production of NOx and particulates is orders of magnitude lower per mile than what comes out the back of a car.
Particularly so if it's a diesel.
Yes, you move the emissions, BUT you also massively reduce them.
If this is correct this only adds further weight to my point which is in support of EV. I was die hard ICE, and will still keep a few, but a daily EV is on order for me. There is some truth in that statement, but as always, it's far more nuanced.
Just considering carbon dioxide first, this has been covered so many time already in this thread, and whilst I appreciate that this thread takes a long time to read, there were several 'killer revelations' posted yesterday that have already been debunked.
Power stations in the UK that burn natural gas to produce electricity can achieve up to 60% thermal efficiency. This is much higher than the average efficiency that an engine in a car can achieve over a typical usage pattern. By a factor of 2 or more.
You also need to consider that the upstream energy consumption (and there carbon production) of refining and producing liquid fuels for cars is significantly higher than what is required to get natural gas to a power station.
Additional things that need to be factored in:
Losses between power station and EV battery
Losses in EV drivetrain and energy recovery by regenerative braking
Losses in ICE transmission and drivetrain
Relative carbon footprint of the production phase between an EV and an ICE
Factor all of those things in and you will find that even if ALL electricity to charge EVs was generated from natural gas, the lifetime carbon footprint between the two would generally be lower for the EV.
The fact that half of our electricity is already renewably sourced means that the lifetime carbon footprint of a UK EV in 2020 is at least half that of an ICE.
What about other harmful emissions?
Again, because the EV pathway consumes far less fuel per mile than the ICE, and the nature of the fuel and the combustion process is very different at a power station, the production of NOx and particulates is orders of magnitude lower per mile than what comes out the back of a car.
Particularly so if it's a diesel.
Yes, you move the emissions, BUT you also massively reduce them.
J4CKO said:
Hmm, maybe but in a lot of ways they aren’t based on reviews, plus most folk work to a budget so if it is £200 a month cheaper can see why that’s a big draw.
Reviews by car journalists? Is that how people choose their cooking saloon car?A Tesla is not cheaper than any 3 series in any way.
It might save £1500 or so per year bik to a company car driver, but the lease rates are 30% higher!
DodgyGeezer said:
In the meantime we've all kept on ramping up electricity usage
Just to clear this up.Total consumption of electricity in the UK has been falling steadily since 2005.
In the last decade it has dropped by nearly 20%.
Industrial and other users have been upgrading to more efficient end use equipment, such as variable speed drives, low energy lighting, more efficient pumps, etc.
I’m not refuting that there are local supply issues.
If all cars were magically swapped to EVs tomorrow, then total annual demand would increase by about 30%.
JD said:
Reviews by car journalists? Is that how people choose their cooking saloon car?
A Tesla is not cheaper than any 3 series in any way.
It might save £1500 or so per year bik to a company car driver, but the lease rates are 30% higher!
Absolute rubbish I'm afraid.A Tesla is not cheaper than any 3 series in any way.
It might save £1500 or so per year bik to a company car driver, but the lease rates are 30% higher!
A Model 3 with 280hp would cost a 40% tax payer £322 a year in BIK. A BMW 330i with 254hp £5443.
Lease costs for 3 years and 30k mile? Model 3 = £690 BMW 330i = £750
That's approx £18k less for the Tesla over 3 years and 30k miles than an equivelant 3 series if taken as a company car. If doing a personal lease the difference is still £2k before accounting for running costs.
GT9 said:
Just to clear this up.
Total consumption of electricity in the UK has been falling steadily since 2005.
In the last decade it has dropped by nearly 20%.
Industrial and other users have been upgrading to more efficient end use equipment, such as variable speed drives, low energy lighting, more efficient pumps, etc.
I’m not refuting that there are local supply issues.
If all cars were magically swapped to EVs tomorrow, then total annual demand would increase by about 30%.
Total consumption of electricity in the UK has been falling steadily since 2005.
In the last decade it has dropped by nearly 20%.
Industrial and other users have been upgrading to more efficient end use equipment, such as variable speed drives, low energy lighting, more efficient pumps, etc.
I’m not refuting that there are local supply issues.
If all cars were magically swapped to EVs tomorrow, then total annual demand would increase by about 30%.
mind you this could throw the cat amongst the pigeons - if you don't mind buying a purely Chinese product
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-by...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-by...
SWoll said:
Absolute rubbish I'm afraid.
A Model 3 with 280hp would cost a 40% tax payer £322 a year in BIK. A BMW 330i with 254hp £5443.
Lease costs for 3 years and 30k mile? Model 3 = £690 BMW 330i = £750
That's approx £18k less for the Tesla over 3 years and 30k miles than an equivelant 3 series if taken as a company car. If doing a personal lease the difference is still £2k before accounting for running costs.
Running costs and bik aside, a lot of companies also won’t permit straight petrol or diesel cars on their company cars lists any more as they count towards a company’s emissions targets. A Model 3 with 280hp would cost a 40% tax payer £322 a year in BIK. A BMW 330i with 254hp £5443.
Lease costs for 3 years and 30k mile? Model 3 = £690 BMW 330i = £750
That's approx £18k less for the Tesla over 3 years and 30k miles than an equivelant 3 series if taken as a company car. If doing a personal lease the difference is still £2k before accounting for running costs.
I work for one of the global IT consultancies and we can only have pure EV or plug-in hybrids now.
So almost overnight every 320d got replaced with a Tesla.
Also our mileage expenses that get rebilled to customers are substantially lower.
CheesecakeRunner said:
SWoll said:
Absolute rubbish I'm afraid.
A Model 3 with 280hp would cost a 40% tax payer £322 a year in BIK. A BMW 330i with 254hp £5443.
Lease costs for 3 years and 30k mile? Model 3 = £690 BMW 330i = £750
That's approx £18k less for the Tesla over 3 years and 30k miles than an equivelant 3 series if taken as a company car. If doing a personal lease the difference is still £2k before accounting for running costs.
Running costs and bik aside, a lot of companies also won’t permit straight petrol or diesel cars on their company cars lists any more as they count towards a company’s emissions targets. A Model 3 with 280hp would cost a 40% tax payer £322 a year in BIK. A BMW 330i with 254hp £5443.
Lease costs for 3 years and 30k mile? Model 3 = £690 BMW 330i = £750
That's approx £18k less for the Tesla over 3 years and 30k miles than an equivelant 3 series if taken as a company car. If doing a personal lease the difference is still £2k before accounting for running costs.
I work for one of the global IT consultancies and we can only have pure EV or plug-in hybrids now.
So almost overnight every 320d got replaced with a Tesla.
Also our mileage expenses that get rebilled to customers are substantially lower.
The big thing that can catch people out is when they come to make mileage claims as 5ppm won't cover the true cost in many cases.
Scrimpton said:
My Ioniq is paying for itself at the moment as the 40p I get for business mileage is covering the lease cost and all the electricity. Lovely stuff.
That's for a personal car used for business use though. Company cars are limited to 5ppm, which works out as a repayment of 15-20p per kW of power for most EV's. Many people paying more than that at home already, come October it's only going to get significantly worse.SWoll said:
Scrimpton said:
My Ioniq is paying for itself at the moment as the 40p I get for business mileage is covering the lease cost and all the electricity. Lovely stuff.
That's for a personal car used for business use though. Company cars are limited to 5ppm, which works out as a repayment of 15-20p per kW of power for most EV's. Many people paying more than that at home already, come October it's only going to get significantly worse.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff