RE: The best used electric cars to buy right now

RE: The best used electric cars to buy right now

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GT9

2,994 posts

152 months

Drl22 said:
That last bit is the key in my opinion. If they are greener on the street then surely it means it makes localised air that we breathe cleaner and healthier, obviously not around the power stations pumping out the emissions to generate the extra power for charging but electric cars will make your average high street a safer place to breathe this is another important factor to consider.
I think what you are trying to say is that EVs move emissions from urban areas to power stations.

There is some truth in that statement, but as always, it's far more nuanced.

Just considering carbon dioxide first, this has been covered so many time already in this thread, and whilst I appreciate that this thread takes a long time to read, there were several 'killer revelations' posted yesterday that have already been debunked.

Power stations in the UK that burn natural gas to produce electricity can achieve up to 60% thermal efficiency. This is much higher than the average efficiency that an engine in a car can achieve over a typical usage pattern. By a factor of 2 or more.

You also need to consider that the upstream energy consumption (and there carbon production) of refining and producing liquid fuels for cars is significantly higher than what is required to get natural gas to a power station.

Additional things that need to be factored in:
Losses between power station and EV battery
Losses in EV drivetrain and energy recovery by regenerative braking
Losses in ICE transmission and drivetrain
Relative carbon footprint of the production phase between an EV and an ICE

Factor all of those things in and you will find that even if ALL electricity to charge EVs was generated from natural gas, the lifetime carbon footprint between the two would generally be lower for the EV.

The fact that half of our electricity is already renewably sourced means that the lifetime carbon footprint of a UK EV in 2020 is at least half that of an ICE.

What about other harmful emissions?
Again, because the EV pathway consumes far less fuel per mile than the ICE, and the nature of the fuel and the combustion process is very different at a power station, the production of NOx and particulates is orders of magnitude lower per mile than what comes out the back of a car.
Particularly so if it's a diesel.

Yes, you move the emissions, BUT you also massively reduce them.

J4CKO

37,001 posts

180 months

My wife had her first EV experience yesterday, her friend picked her up for a coffee, I was working and they arrived back a couple of hours later and all I could hear from outside was Mexican horns, farts, goat noises and the like as she went through the full list of horn sounds on her new Tesla model 3, I knew what it was before i saw it.

Anyway, my wife seemed pretty impressed with the car, the interior design, the smoothness but less impressed by the acceleration which made her feel sick, even worse than my car as there is no blaring exhaust to forewarn you, just rapidly gathering momentum and your stomach getting left behind. I think she would like one next, she best get saving up !

Model 3's are everywhere now, from scarcity a couple of years back they are like Mondeos used to be in terms of frequency of seeing them, do they just work out cheaper than say a 3 series or similar ? Or is it the novelty, running costs that convert folk ?

Taycans as well, for an 80 grand plus motor, lot of them around, 2 on our road alone, of 22 houses, one narrowly avoided getting flattened by several tonnes of tree that fell off on Tuesday evening but the owner had managed to clear the stuff off his driveway so could park on it, if he left it a day it would have been a goner, almost like the poor Dominos girl delivering a Pizza, who just managed to get away save for a whack with a smaller branch, her car then completely blocked in at the end of the cul de sac until the following morning.

Jex

748 posts

108 months

I am sure many of us have a foot in each camp. I have a BEV two 4 cylinder ICE cars, one a modern COD turbo, one a 60s twin-cam, two V8s and a V12. Which do I drive most? The BEV. Local trips so no range anxiety. One of the motivations for buying it was the imposition of zero emission zones in parts of London and the concern they might appear near me. With a BEV I could still get elderly parents into or through those zones. Is it green? I think so, but having solar panels as well I am confident that it is (well I need somehow to offset the other cars!).

ashenfie

450 posts

26 months

J4CKO said:
My wife had her first EV experience yesterday, her friend picked her up for a coffee, I was working and they arrived back a couple of hours later and all I could hear from outside was Mexican horns, farts, goat noises and the like as she went through the full list of horn sounds on her new Tesla model 3, I knew what it was before i saw it.

Anyway, my wife seemed pretty impressed with the car, the interior design, the smoothness but less impressed by the acceleration which made her feel sick, even worse than my car as there is no blaring exhaust to forewarn you, just rapidly gathering momentum and your stomach getting left behind. I think she would like one next, she best get saving up !

Model 3's are everywhere now, from scarcity a couple of years back they are like Mondeos used to be in terms of frequency of seeing them, do they just work out cheaper than say a 3 series or similar ? Or is it the novelty, running costs that convert folk ?

Taycans as well, for an 80 grand plus motor, lot of them around, 2 on our road alone, of 22 houses, one narrowly avoided getting flattened by several tonnes of tree that fell off on Tuesday evening but the owner had managed to clear the stuff off his driveway so could park on it, if he left it a day it would have been a goner, almost like the poor Dominos girl delivering a Pizza, who just managed to get away save for a whack with a smaller branch, her car then completely blocked in at the end of the cul de sac until the following morning.
Hard to Say if it cheaper, cheaper than what?

There is a tidal wave of EVs that have hit or are hitting the market right now. So much so that some of the more established cars like the Jag I-pace are looking. expensive now. The model 3 is a well sorted but expensive in terms of buying and insurance like Taycans another well sorted car, but you can't ignore Kia and Co who are offering just as good cars at more reasonable prices. It seams so much so that Samsung have decided no to release cars. and focus on component supplies.

Untimely when supply catches up with demand some manufactures will have to offer deals to shift car in volume. With interest rate moving up , prices of PCPs will no longer make top end car like the Taycan only be only a couple of hundred more than a Tesla 3 and well ahead on image and looks.

DodgyGeezer

31,915 posts

170 months

I guess one worry that does keep on cropping up is that of grid stability - this isn't a dig at EV's, more the grid itself. I remember a decade or so ago we were warned that the likelihood of brownouts was going to increase to the point of being a regular inevitability (and this coming from the power companies themselves rather than outsiders). In the meantime we've all kept on ramping up electricity usage to the point where some new estates in West London cannot be built due to lack of availability of power and yet charging (potentially) 10m extra electric vehicles is suddenly no problem? Something is off (and I do appreciate we could have been lied to a decade ago)

SWoll

14,336 posts

238 months

J4CKO said:
My wife had her first EV experience yesterday, her friend picked her up for a coffee, I was working and they arrived back a couple of hours later and all I could hear from outside was Mexican horns, farts, goat noises and the like as she went through the full list of horn sounds on her new Tesla model 3, I knew what it was before i saw it.

Anyway, my wife seemed pretty impressed with the car, the interior design, the smoothness but less impressed by the acceleration which made her feel sick, even worse than my car as there is no blaring exhaust to forewarn you, just rapidly gathering momentum and your stomach getting left behind. I think she would like one next, she best get saving up !

Model 3's are everywhere now, from scarcity a couple of years back they are like Mondeos used to be in terms of frequency of seeing them, do they just work out cheaper than say a 3 series or similar ? Or is it the novelty, running costs that convert folk ?

Taycans as well, for an 80 grand plus motor, lot of them around, 2 on our road alone, of 22 houses, one narrowly avoided getting flattened by several tonnes of tree that fell off on Tuesday evening but the owner had managed to clear the stuff off his driveway so could park on it, if he left it a day it would have been a goner, almost like the poor Dominos girl delivering a Pizza, who just managed to get away save for a whack with a smaller branch, her car then completely blocked in at the end of the cul de sac until the following morning.
Company cars and salary sacrifice. The BIK tax savings that are available make EV's an absolute no brainer.

As an example for 40% tax payer a BMW 320d would cost neary £5k in BIK alone per year. A RWD Model 3, £300. Take those cars on today for 3 years and by 2025 you'll have paid £14k in BIK on the BMW or £900 for the Tesla.

Model 3's are also available far more quickly than many alternatives and have been available for a lot longer. We had ours pretty early back in 2019 when they were first released and you'd be lucky to see another for weeks.

If you're earning £100k+ and can get one on a salary sacrifice scheme a Taycan could be yours for around £500 a month..An equivelant Panamera would cost 3 times that.

Edited by SWoll on Friday 5th August 10:52

JD

2,366 posts

208 months

J4CKO said:
do they just work out cheaper than say a 3 series or similar ? Or is it the novelty, running costs that convert folk ?
Or you know, the more obvious answer, in that people think they are better.

Jex

748 posts

108 months

DodgyGeezer said:
I guess one worry that does keep on cropping up is that of grid stability - this isn't a dig at EV's, more the grid itself. I remember a decade or so ago we were warned that the likelihood of brownouts was going to increase to the point of being a regular inevitability (and this coming from the power companies themselves rather than outsiders). In the meantime we've all kept on ramping up electricity usage to the point where some new estates in West London cannot be built due to lack of availability of power and yet charging (potentially) 10m extra electric vehicles is suddenly no problem? Something is off (and I do appreciate we could have been lied to a decade ago)
If you charge electric cars at night when demand is low, there is no capacity problem and it is cheaper to do so.

SWoll

14,336 posts

238 months

Jex said:
DodgyGeezer said:
I guess one worry that does keep on cropping up is that of grid stability - this isn't a dig at EV's, more the grid itself. I remember a decade or so ago we were warned that the likelihood of brownouts was going to increase to the point of being a regular inevitability (and this coming from the power companies themselves rather than outsiders). In the meantime we've all kept on ramping up electricity usage to the point where some new estates in West London cannot be built due to lack of availability of power and yet charging (potentially) 10m extra electric vehicles is suddenly no problem? Something is off (and I do appreciate we could have been lied to a decade ago)
If you charge electric cars at night when demand is low, there is no capacity problem and it is cheaper to do so.
And how many are really going to need to charge every night? Even on a lowly 3 pin plug pulling just 2.2kW thats 70-80 miles per night, how many drivers are covering 25k miles per year? Get a dedicated 7kW charger and that's 2-250 miles per night or 80k per year..

GT9

2,994 posts

152 months

Charlie_1 said:
umm on Hydrogen from a US gov website , there are others , and you want me to accept your EV 'facts' lol

About half of the U.S. population lives in areas where air pollution levels are high enough to negatively impact public health and the environment. Emissions from gasoline and diesel vehicles—such as nitrogen oxides, hydrocarbons, and particulate matter—are a major source of this pollution. Hydrogen-powered fuel cell electric vehicles emit none of these harmful substances—only water (H2O) and warm air.



Edited by Charlie_1 on Friday 5th August 09:21
Like the EV, you cannot just overlook the upstream side of hydrogen.

It's either produced from reforming natural gas or it's produced from electrolysis.

It is of course possible to produce green hydrogen by electrolysis from renewable electricity, but it is unfortunately not very efficient to use it to power vehicles.

The reason being the number of steps required to convert it from electricity to hydrogen, compress it and then convert it back to electricity.

The comparison between EVs using green electricity and hydrogen cars using green electricity has been studied extensively across the world for decades, and discussed at length of multiple threads in the EV sub-forum on here for 5 or 6 years.

It's also included in the Ricardo study I kept asking you to read.

It is generally accepted that the amount of source electricity required to move a hydrogen fuel cell car is about 2.5 times higher than for an EV charged from that same electricity.

That means 2.5 times as many wind turbines, a massive investment in itself, along with a massive investment in electrolysis plant.

Once you have the hydrogen, you then need to compress it. The reason being that hydrogen in gaseous form has a very low volumetric energy density, so to get enough of it into a passenger car, it needs to be compressed to 700 times atmospheric pressure.

Even then, it only achieves a volumetric energy density of around one tenth of petrol, so you need several large high pressure tanks in the car to store it. These tanks are made from thick walled carbon fibre cylinders that consume a lot of valuable space in the car, as well as a sizeable mass of high-grade materials in their construction.

Liquid hydrogen is not feasible for cars as it needs to be stored at -250C and boils off over the course of a week or so, so unless you use it, you lose it.

The low efficiency of the energy pathway using hydrogen combined with the onboard storage challenges makes hydrogen a niche product for the passenger car sector.

Basically, the passenger car sector is way too large an energy consumer for it to be viable to use such a low efficiency pathway, because the amount of upstream infrastructure investment that is required is insurmountable in the foreseeable future. It's hard enough trying to convince anyone that we can get enough electricity to charge EVs, let alone a technology that would require 2.5 time as much electricity per car.

It potentially has a role to play in larger vehicles, and in the shipping and aviation industries, where total energy demands are significantly lower.

Even if you could achieve the investment required, there are no studies to date that can demonstrate that hydrogen fuel cell cars have a lifetime carbon footprint anywhere comparable to battery electric vehicles. This is not surprising, as there is simply too much energy lost to waste heat during the usage phase for this to be the case. The manufacturing footprint of a fuel cell car is not significantly different to a BEV, due to the high grade materials and complex componentry required, which include a battery and an electric drivetrain, along with the fuel cell and the storage tanks.

SWoll

14,336 posts

238 months

GT9 said:
Lots of smart, well researched and well written points.

Great post that. If you don't mind I might save it for the next time someone starts banging on about hydrgen use in passenger cars and EV only being a short term answer.

I expect someone will be along in the EV subforum shortly. Usually get one a week. smile

D4rez

444 posts

36 months

Charlie_1 said:
D4rez said:
That's not correct, as posted above - it's just one manufacturer. Other independent studies from universities and other OEMs have found they are 70% better than an equivalent ICE (Model 3 vs C220d for example is 68% better lifetime) today. I understand where you're coming from but it's not factually accurate - especially not the street emissions - hydrogen and particularly synthetic fuels are as bad as conventional fuel. No difference in exhaust content.

They are not planet savers on their own but across multiple countries commited to the switch and seen as part of all of the many, many other de-carbonisation activities happening right now, they are part of the solution
umm on Hydrogen from a US gov website , there are others , and you want me to accept your EV 'facts' lol

About half of the U.S. population lives in areas where air pollution levels are high enough to negatively impact public health and the environment. Emissions from gasoline and diesel vehicles—such as nitrogen oxides, hydrocarbons, and particulate matter—are a major source of this pollution. Hydrogen-powered fuel cell electric vehicles emit none of these harmful substances—only water (H2O) and warm air.



Edited by Charlie_1 on Friday 5th August 09:21
Comment refers to burning hydrogen in an ICE or synethetic fuel/e-fuel. Fuel cells are emissions free as you state except for tyre and brake particulates which are common across any powertrain

GT9

2,994 posts

152 months

SWoll said:

Great post that. If you don't mind I might save it for the next time someone starts banging on about hydrgen use in passenger cars and EV only being a short term answer.

I expect someone will be along in the EV subforum shortly. Usually get one a week. smile
Be my guest smile

GT9

2,994 posts

152 months

Right, it's getting to that time of day again!

Looking forward to hearing about more wind turbines catching fire because someone left the fridge door open, or something along those lines.

Jex

748 posts

108 months

ICE cars are a problem, EVs aren’t the answer and neither is hydrogen?
Does anyone know if horses fart methane?

Wonderman

1,188 posts

175 months

Jex said:
ICE cars are a problem, EVs aren’t the answer and neither is hydrogen?
Does anyone know if horses fart methane?
https://horses.extension.org/what-is-the-carbon-fo...

"“the biomass of a horse is a carbon sink in the same way as the biomass of a tree in a forest is a carbon ‘sink.’”
The digestive process of horses produces far less methane than the digestive system of cattle and sheep. Cattle, sheep, and certain other grazing animals are known as ruminants because their gut contains a rumen."

P.S. Please note this is first article on google, I have not checked references, sources or the political persuasion of the author therefore please avoid a tail spin of abuse.



Edited by Wonderman on Friday 5th August 16:58

KarlMac

3,456 posts

121 months

J4CKO said:
Model 3's are everywhere now, from scarcity a couple of years back they are like mondeos used to be in terms of frequency of seeing them, do they just work out cheaper than say a 3 series or similar ? Or is it the novelty, running costs that convert folk ?

They’re pitched at the right level to a make lot of sense for people in mgmt positions to take them as company cars, which is probably why your seeing loads of them around. Now the novelty has worn off the Polestar 2 seems to be taking its place.

J4CKO

37,001 posts

180 months

JD said:
J4CKO said:
do they just work out cheaper than say a 3 series or similar ? Or is it the novelty, running costs that convert folk ?
Or you know, the more obvious answer, in that people think they are better.
Hmm, maybe but in a lot of ways they aren’t based on reviews, plus most folk work to a budget so if it is £200 a month cheaper can see why that’s a big draw.

Still the novelty factor there as well but think that will wane a bit based on sheer numbers.

I could lease one but no point for the mileage I do and I have a strong suspicion, being a petrolhead I would regret it after the initial period. I am quite pro EV but not sure I want one, not yet anyway and would replace the wife’s car, not mine.

Tesla nailed it but the rest are catching up, the Kia EV6 GT I think is going to steal sales from higher model 3’s and maybe even the S, certainly the Mustang EV.

It’s gone from “oh look an EV”, to seeing multiples in a row, wonder when we will get to “oh look an ICE car” ?



DodgyGeezer

31,915 posts

170 months

J4CKO said:
I could lease one but no point for the mileage I do and I have a strong suspicion, being a petrolhead I would regret it after the initial period. I am quite pro EV but not sure I want one, not yet anyway and would replace the wife’s car, not mine.
that's the point I'm coming to TBH. At this point the Challenger is going nowhere however Mrs DG's car is due back next year so to get rid of that and the next car could be EV also losing the family hack does make a man-maths case for it (factor in petrol costs saved vs increased monthlies...)

Drl22

624 posts

45 months

GT9 said:
I think what you are trying to say is that EVs move emissions from urban areas to power stations.

There is some truth in that statement, but as always, it's far more nuanced.

Just considering carbon dioxide first, this has been covered so many time already in this thread, and whilst I appreciate that this thread takes a long time to read, there were several 'killer revelations' posted yesterday that have already been debunked.

Power stations in the UK that burn natural gas to produce electricity can achieve up to 60% thermal efficiency. This is much higher than the average efficiency that an engine in a car can achieve over a typical usage pattern. By a factor of 2 or more.

You also need to consider that the upstream energy consumption (and there carbon production) of refining and producing liquid fuels for cars is significantly higher than what is required to get natural gas to a power station.

Additional things that need to be factored in:
Losses between power station and EV battery
Losses in EV drivetrain and energy recovery by regenerative braking
Losses in ICE transmission and drivetrain
Relative carbon footprint of the production phase between an EV and an ICE

Factor all of those things in and you will find that even if ALL electricity to charge EVs was generated from natural gas, the lifetime carbon footprint between the two would generally be lower for the EV.

The fact that half of our electricity is already renewably sourced means that the lifetime carbon footprint of a UK EV in 2020 is at least half that of an ICE.

What about other harmful emissions?
Again, because the EV pathway consumes far less fuel per mile than the ICE, and the nature of the fuel and the combustion process is very different at a power station, the production of NOx and particulates is orders of magnitude lower per mile than what comes out the back of a car.
Particularly so if it's a diesel.

Yes, you move the emissions, BUT you also massively reduce them.
If this is correct this only adds further weight to my point which is in support of EV. I was die hard ICE, and will still keep a few, but a daily EV is on order for me.