RE: Audi A1 quattro vs. Toyota GR Yaris
Discussion
Unreal said:
I don't have a problem with the Yaris's seat height or mirror position but I would gladly get rid of stop start and lane assist. Turning both off every time I start the car irritates me, as does the infotainment interface.
If you weren’t aware stop start goes off when you go into sport mode without putting a light on the dash. I’m not against start stop but the old Citroen van I occasionally drive has a far superior stop start system than the Toyota and that annoys me!
Baldchap said:
A lot of people are upset because the GR brilliant, and are determined to prove they're terrible for some reason.
EVO actually ran an article about it, explaining that sometimes, when everyone even half qualified who has actually experienced a thing says it is brilliant without exception, the thing actually is brilliant.
Sorry guys. You're not going to change the mind of those of us who have actually driven it.
Brilliant brilliant? Or just brilliant for a hatchback?EVO actually ran an article about it, explaining that sometimes, when everyone even half qualified who has actually experienced a thing says it is brilliant without exception, the thing actually is brilliant.
Sorry guys. You're not going to change the mind of those of us who have actually driven it.
More or less exciting than, say, your Elise 250 Cup?
Olivera said:
It's undoubtedly a good car. The annoying thing about it is the gushing fanboism and sycophancy that can't admit to it having any flaws 
I was just reading a copy of Evo recently and they stated that every member of their team thought the driving position was poor (too high), yet you regularly read comments on PH (even this thread) where owners state the driving position is good, even desirably high. There was even an owner on here that was 6 foot 7 in height and claimed the driving position was perfect. Then there's criticism that it's ugly (subjective), it could turn in more sharply, and I would argue that it majors on traction which modern performance cars really just don't need more of.
the high seating position is a benefit for me, end of. It improves visibility on the roads where it works best. I was just reading a copy of Evo recently and they stated that every member of their team thought the driving position was poor (too high), yet you regularly read comments on PH (even this thread) where owners state the driving position is good, even desirably high. There was even an owner on here that was 6 foot 7 in height and claimed the driving position was perfect. Then there's criticism that it's ugly (subjective), it could turn in more sharply, and I would argue that it majors on traction which modern performance cars really just don't need more of.Others may disagree, but why do I care what people think?
Do I feel insecure about my Yaris so have to pretend the seat is good when it's not? Err, no...
shoestring7 said:
There's a £250 kit that lowers the Yaris' seat by 30mm and retains all of the adjustment etc. which alleviates about the only criticism i have with my one.
Is there? If you have link that would be good please. I’m an owner who does think the driving position is too high but all the kits I have seen mean the seat adjustments become limited or are even removed. Agree on the post re lane assist and stop/start too. Disabling them takes seconds but is still irritating. I use CarPlay so the infotainment system is fine for me.
Still love the car and it is a darn sight quicker than my V8 Defender!!
richterswil said:
shoestring7 said:
There's a £250 kit that lowers the Yaris' seat by 30mm and retains all of the adjustment etc. which alleviates about the only criticism i have with my one.
Is there? If you have link that would be good please. I’m an owner who does think the driving position is too high but all the kits I have seen mean the seat adjustments become limited or are even removed. Agree on the post re lane assist and stop/start too. Disabling them takes seconds but is still irritating. I use CarPlay so the infotainment system is fine for me.
Still love the car and it is a darn sight quicker than my V8 Defender!!
I definitely couldn't own one without doing something about the seats. I really couldn't get comfortable when I drove one, and it really spoiled the experience for me. Absolutely no way I could drive one on track either, as I wouldn't be able to wear a helmet. My head was touching the roof the whole time as it was. I would even want something done to the passenger seat, as a lot of my friends are a similar height to me, so it would be uncomfortable for passengers too.
It's a shame, as it spoiled what was otherwise a good car. Fair play if it doesn't bother you, but it's definitely a big issue for a lot of people.
te. There are good and bad engines of all configurations. I'd rather drive almost any modern three-cylinder car than some late '70s American tank with an emissions-restricted V8 that can barely puff out 130bhp. On the flip side, obviously I'd rather drive a McLaren F1 than a GR Yaris.
I put it up there with people dismissing cars because of who made them to be honest. Saying "I don't like small engines" is like saying "I don't like BMWs". It's daft, because all you're doing is denying yourself some potentially enjoyable experiences, based on nothing more than (often unfounded) internal bias. There are good BMWs and bad ones, just like there are good engines and bad ones. Drive a car because it's good, not because of it's spec sheet.
As I said earlier, where the GR Yaris could be useful is if TGR develop a Rally3 car, as they are much more closely related to road cars (and being 4WD from the factory will help). Even in a Rally2 car, the engine from the GR would likely be the basis, so there would be some crossover. As for the current Rally1 car, well, that's now a space frame chassis with some Yaris-looking panels attached to it, so any link to the road cars is long gone. Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from the GR Yaris at all, as it's a very impressive car, but the link to the WRC machine really doesn't go beyond the roofline in reality.
Probably the most interesting motorsport crossover is the one-make rally series' that have popped up in Italy and Iberia. That's a great idea and does give the car some proper motorsport pedigree. I'd love to see that in the UK, but we're still too obsessed with MK2 Escorts unfortunately.
It's a shame, as it spoiled what was otherwise a good car. Fair play if it doesn't bother you, but it's definitely a big issue for a lot of people.
ecsrobin said:
But it is a homologation car, wether it competed is kind of irrelevant the reason it was designed and existed was for that purpose. The fact in this case covid stopped it from it’s designed purpose doesn’t mean it wasn’t a homologation car.
Toyota we’re very clear it was the body shell they wanted to enable more aero, Tommi Mäkinen actually wanted no rear seats and a more extreme roof line.
I never said it wasn't a homologation car. My point was simply that a lot of people have made a massive deal out of it, like we're talking about an Escort Cosworth or similar - i.e. cars where a significant amount of the DNA went into the rally car. With modern rally cars, that simply isn't the case. It was a bit of a stretch with the Escort in reality, as all of the mechanical parts were thrown away for the Group A car (albeit not for Group N). For modern stuff, where most of the body shell is thrown away as well, the term "homologation special" no longer means that much, so it's not really worth getting that excited about in itself. That doesn't take anything away from the Yaris, as Toyota have created a brilliant car, but people acting like it has any relevance to anything competing in the WRC is more than a bit of a stretch.Toyota we’re very clear it was the body shell they wanted to enable more aero, Tommi Mäkinen actually wanted no rear seats and a more extreme roof line.
Edited by ecsrobin on Wednesday 10th August 07:33
Slippydiff said:
Plenty of car buying choices "don't make sense" and are made "just because", and it's those differing choices that makes us individuals. And an excellent illustration of those differing choices are your comments on the 3 pot motor in the Peugeot making "a nice thrum". Oxymoron alert !
That thrum may be pleasing to your senses, but to mine it's nothing more than an obnoxious assault, primarily aurally, but also to any and every part of me that's in contact with the car. It is in no way mellifluous, on the contrary, it's merely the hallmark of cost cutting and mechanical efficiency in the name of reduced fuel consumption, which whilst laudable in itself, is an ideology driven by a few misguided individuals.
I'll nail my colours to the mast here and now, I'm not a fan of 3 pot engines, and there's very few modern 4 pot engines that are particularly pleasing or indeed pleasant to use. Sure the old BDA at full chat was a wonderful sounding engine, and for some the thrum of a flat four Subaru engine is likewise, but it's only once you get to Audi's 5 pot engine (specifically that used in the TT RS and RS3) that things improve acoustically.
Pretty much any 6 pot motor, be it a flat six, vee six or straight six will be more mellifluous and smoother, (all are good reasons to prefer them, and have nothing to do with "just because") and once we're into the realms of 8 , 10 and 12 pot motors, well I think they speak for themselves.
If this is "just because" :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHgD0wJGcR0&t=...
I think can live with it.
But if this more your thing :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM51c_2G0Xo
fine, but just because you find it in some way appealing doesn't necessarily make it any moreso for others.
There's nothing wrong with personal preference, I wasn't arguing that. However, dismissing a car because of its engine configuration is odd and rather self-limiting. Configuration doesn't make an engine (or even car) good or bad. It's not as simple as V8 = good, V10 = better, three-pot = sThat thrum may be pleasing to your senses, but to mine it's nothing more than an obnoxious assault, primarily aurally, but also to any and every part of me that's in contact with the car. It is in no way mellifluous, on the contrary, it's merely the hallmark of cost cutting and mechanical efficiency in the name of reduced fuel consumption, which whilst laudable in itself, is an ideology driven by a few misguided individuals.
I'll nail my colours to the mast here and now, I'm not a fan of 3 pot engines, and there's very few modern 4 pot engines that are particularly pleasing or indeed pleasant to use. Sure the old BDA at full chat was a wonderful sounding engine, and for some the thrum of a flat four Subaru engine is likewise, but it's only once you get to Audi's 5 pot engine (specifically that used in the TT RS and RS3) that things improve acoustically.
Pretty much any 6 pot motor, be it a flat six, vee six or straight six will be more mellifluous and smoother, (all are good reasons to prefer them, and have nothing to do with "just because") and once we're into the realms of 8 , 10 and 12 pot motors, well I think they speak for themselves.
If this is "just because" :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHgD0wJGcR0&t=...
I think can live with it.
But if this more your thing :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM51c_2G0Xo
fine, but just because you find it in some way appealing doesn't necessarily make it any moreso for others.
te. There are good and bad engines of all configurations. I'd rather drive almost any modern three-cylinder car than some late '70s American tank with an emissions-restricted V8 that can barely puff out 130bhp. On the flip side, obviously I'd rather drive a McLaren F1 than a GR Yaris. I put it up there with people dismissing cars because of who made them to be honest. Saying "I don't like small engines" is like saying "I don't like BMWs". It's daft, because all you're doing is denying yourself some potentially enjoyable experiences, based on nothing more than (often unfounded) internal bias. There are good BMWs and bad ones, just like there are good engines and bad ones. Drive a car because it's good, not because of it's spec sheet.
AlphaDelta said:
Also worth nothing that even though they didn't race it, lessons they learnt from development have been put to use in both the 2021 & 2022 cars. Toyota are dominant in WRC at the moment, you can see how much they invest in development and some of that has made its way into the GRY road car.
Have you seen the underneath of a recent World Rally Car? If even 1% of that has made it into the GR Yaris I would be amazed. I'm sure Gazoo could have given a small amount of feedback, but there was not an ounce of road car in the oily bits of the previous Toyota WRC machine. All of the suspension is bespoke, with ridiculously long travel, while the engine is a motorsport-use-only four-pot. Aside from them maybe giving a small amount of input on what the car could/should feel like, they're probably not going to have had much to say, as the two couldn't be further apart. As I said earlier, where the GR Yaris could be useful is if TGR develop a Rally3 car, as they are much more closely related to road cars (and being 4WD from the factory will help). Even in a Rally2 car, the engine from the GR would likely be the basis, so there would be some crossover. As for the current Rally1 car, well, that's now a space frame chassis with some Yaris-looking panels attached to it, so any link to the road cars is long gone. Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from the GR Yaris at all, as it's a very impressive car, but the link to the WRC machine really doesn't go beyond the roofline in reality.
Probably the most interesting motorsport crossover is the one-make rally series' that have popped up in Italy and Iberia. That's a great idea and does give the car some proper motorsport pedigree. I'd love to see that in the UK, but we're still too obsessed with MK2 Escorts unfortunately.
Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Thursday 11th August 07:14
Jon_S_Rally said:
I definitely couldn't own one without doing something about the seats. I really couldn't get comfortable when I drove one, and it really spoiled the experience for me. Absolutely no way I could drive one on track either, as I wouldn't be able to wear a helmet. My head was touching the roof the whole time as it was. I would even want something done to the passenger seat, as a lot of my friends are a similar height to me, so it would be uncomfortable for passengers too.
It's a shame, as it spoiled what was otherwise a good car. Fair play if it doesn't bother you, but it's definitely a big issue for a lot of people.
I beg to differ about a big issue for a lot of people. Aware of the whole host of evo journalists making a fuss but as has been posted you have other journalists like HM posted above that are saying a bit more time with the car and it’s perfect. It's a shame, as it spoiled what was otherwise a good car. Fair play if it doesn't bother you, but it's definitely a big issue for a lot of people.
Of the I think 4 posters on this thread 3 of us have said no issue and 1 has asked for the seat lowering. On the owners groups I’d probably say it’s more 1 in 10 that are lowering it if that. So an issue for some is a better summary.
All your other points (not quoted) I fully agree.
ecsrobin said:
Unreal said:
I don't have a problem with the Yaris's seat height or mirror position but I would gladly get rid of stop start and lane assist. Turning both off every time I start the car irritates me, as does the infotainment interface.
If you weren’t aware stop start goes off when you go into sport mode without putting a light on the dash. I’m not against start stop but the old Citroen van I occasionally drive has a far superior stop start system than the Toyota and that annoys me!
ecsrobin said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
I definitely couldn't own one without doing something about the seats. I really couldn't get comfortable when I drove one, and it really spoiled the experience for me. Absolutely no way I could drive one on track either, as I wouldn't be able to wear a helmet. My head was touching the roof the whole time as it was. I would even want something done to the passenger seat, as a lot of my friends are a similar height to me, so it would be uncomfortable for passengers too.
It's a shame, as it spoiled what was otherwise a good car. Fair play if it doesn't bother you, but it's definitely a big issue for a lot of people.
I beg to differ about a big issue for a lot of people. Aware of the whole host of evo journalists making a fuss but as has been posted you have other journalists like HM posted above that are saying a bit more time with the car and it’s perfect. It's a shame, as it spoiled what was otherwise a good car. Fair play if it doesn't bother you, but it's definitely a big issue for a lot of people.
Of the I think 4 posters on this thread 3 of us have said no issue and 1 has asked for the seat lowering. On the owners groups I’d probably say it’s more 1 in 10 that are lowering it if that. So an issue for some is a better summary.
All your other points (not quoted) I fully agree.
Crap photo and I'll get a better one if I get the chance later but look at the height and size of a standard GRY next to a 350Z and an even smaller Boxster. That's not foreshortening, there really is a considerable difference in the height of the cars. The pocket rocket label is something of a misnomer.
Jon_S_Rally said:
Have you seen the underneath of a recent World Rally Car? If even 1% of that has made it into the GR Yaris I would be amazed. I'm sure Gazoo could have given a small amount of feedback, but there was not an ounce of road car in the oily bits of the previous Toyota WRC machine. All of the suspension is bespoke, with ridiculously long travel, while the engine is a motorsport-use-only four-pot. Aside from them maybe giving a small amount of input on what the car could/should feel like, they're probably not going to have had much to say, as the two couldn't be further apart.
As I said earlier, where the GR Yaris could be useful is if TGR develop a Rally3 car, as they are much more closely related to road cars (and being 4WD from the factory will help). Even in a Rally2 car, the engine from the GR would likely be the basis, so there would be some crossover. As for the current Rally1 car, well, that's now a space frame chassis with some Yaris-looking panels attached to it, so any link to the road cars is long gone. Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from the GR Yaris at all, as it's a very impressive car, but the link to the WRC machine really doesn't go beyond the roofline in reality.
Probably the most interesting motorsport crossover is the one-make rally series' that have popped up in Italy and Iberia. That's a great idea and does give the car some proper motorsport pedigree. I'd love to see that in the UK, but we're still too obsessed with MK2 Escorts unfortunately.
I am aware WRC cars are very far away from any road version, homologation special or not. If you ever see them being built it's basically stripped back to nothing before they even start. I haven't seen the GRY but I've had a good look around the current Puma and yes the space frame means it's barely anything like the road car (a crying shame imo). My point was that if the car was developed to be a WRC car even if it didn't launch all of the development work that went into it will still be to a high standard with the intention of the car being used for WRC. It's as close as you can get without spending a considerable sum for the real thing. And given Toyota are the best in rally right now and Akio Toyoda gave the team a blank cheque it's about as good as you're going to get for this type of car.As I said earlier, where the GR Yaris could be useful is if TGR develop a Rally3 car, as they are much more closely related to road cars (and being 4WD from the factory will help). Even in a Rally2 car, the engine from the GR would likely be the basis, so there would be some crossover. As for the current Rally1 car, well, that's now a space frame chassis with some Yaris-looking panels attached to it, so any link to the road cars is long gone. Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from the GR Yaris at all, as it's a very impressive car, but the link to the WRC machine really doesn't go beyond the roofline in reality.
Probably the most interesting motorsport crossover is the one-make rally series' that have popped up in Italy and Iberia. That's a great idea and does give the car some proper motorsport pedigree. I'd love to see that in the UK, but we're still too obsessed with MK2 Escorts unfortunately.
Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Thursday 11th August 07:14
On Rally2/Rally3 I am surprised they haven't gone down this route yet. I believe the engine is eligible (again, it's not just a random 3 pot from a basic yaris it's a motorsport engine) so I expected to see some Rally2/Rally3 GRY going up against the Skodas & Fords. The only GRY I've seen doing anything like this is Harry Bates in Australia and a few Japanese teams.
AlphaDelta said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
Have you seen the underneath of a recent World Rally Car? If even 1% of that has made it into the GR Yaris I would be amazed. I'm sure Gazoo could have given a small amount of feedback, but there was not an ounce of road car in the oily bits of the previous Toyota WRC machine. All of the suspension is bespoke, with ridiculously long travel, while the engine is a motorsport-use-only four-pot. Aside from them maybe giving a small amount of input on what the car could/should feel like, they're probably not going to have had much to say, as the two couldn't be further apart.
As I said earlier, where the GR Yaris could be useful is if TGR develop a Rally3 car, as they are much more closely related to road cars (and being 4WD from the factory will help). Even in a Rally2 car, the engine from the GR would likely be the basis, so there would be some crossover. As for the current Rally1 car, well, that's now a space frame chassis with some Yaris-looking panels attached to it, so any link to the road cars is long gone. Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from the GR Yaris at all, as it's a very impressive car, but the link to the WRC machine really doesn't go beyond the roofline in reality.
Probably the most interesting motorsport crossover is the one-make rally series' that have popped up in Italy and Iberia. That's a great idea and does give the car some proper motorsport pedigree. I'd love to see that in the UK, but we're still too obsessed with MK2 Escorts unfortunately.
I am aware WRC cars are very far away from any road version, homologation special or not. If you ever see them being built it's basically stripped back to nothing before they even start. I haven't seen the GRY but I've had a good look around the current Puma and yes the space frame means it's barely anything like the road car (a crying shame imo). My point was that if the car was developed to be a WRC car even if it didn't launch all of the development work that went into it will still be to a high standard with the intention of the car being used for WRC. It's as close as you can get without spending a considerable sum for the real thing. And given Toyota are the best in rally right now and Akio Toyoda gave the team a blank cheque it's about as good as you're going to get for this type of car.As I said earlier, where the GR Yaris could be useful is if TGR develop a Rally3 car, as they are much more closely related to road cars (and being 4WD from the factory will help). Even in a Rally2 car, the engine from the GR would likely be the basis, so there would be some crossover. As for the current Rally1 car, well, that's now a space frame chassis with some Yaris-looking panels attached to it, so any link to the road cars is long gone. Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from the GR Yaris at all, as it's a very impressive car, but the link to the WRC machine really doesn't go beyond the roofline in reality.
Probably the most interesting motorsport crossover is the one-make rally series' that have popped up in Italy and Iberia. That's a great idea and does give the car some proper motorsport pedigree. I'd love to see that in the UK, but we're still too obsessed with MK2 Escorts unfortunately.
Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Thursday 11th August 07:14
On Rally2/Rally3 I am surprised they haven't gone down this route yet. I believe the engine is eligible (again, it's not just a random 3 pot from a basic yaris it's a motorsport engine) so I expected to see some Rally2/Rally3 GRY going up against the Skodas & Fords. The only GRY I've seen doing anything like this is Harry Bates in Australia and a few Japanese teams.
Unreal said:
AlphaDelta said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
Have you seen the underneath of a recent World Rally Car? If even 1% of that has made it into the GR Yaris I would be amazed. I'm sure Gazoo could have given a small amount of feedback, but there was not an ounce of road car in the oily bits of the previous Toyota WRC machine. All of the suspension is bespoke, with ridiculously long travel, while the engine is a motorsport-use-only four-pot. Aside from them maybe giving a small amount of input on what the car could/should feel like, they're probably not going to have had much to say, as the two couldn't be further apart.
As I said earlier, where the GR Yaris could be useful is if TGR develop a Rally3 car, as they are much more closely related to road cars (and being 4WD from the factory will help). Even in a Rally2 car, the engine from the GR would likely be the basis, so there would be some crossover. As for the current Rally1 car, well, that's now a space frame chassis with some Yaris-looking panels attached to it, so any link to the road cars is long gone. Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from the GR Yaris at all, as it's a very impressive car, but the link to the WRC machine really doesn't go beyond the roofline in reality.
Probably the most interesting motorsport crossover is the one-make rally series' that have popped up in Italy and Iberia. That's a great idea and does give the car some proper motorsport pedigree. I'd love to see that in the UK, but we're still too obsessed with MK2 Escorts unfortunately.
I am aware WRC cars are very far away from any road version, homologation special or not. If you ever see them being built it's basically stripped back to nothing before they even start. I haven't seen the GRY but I've had a good look around the current Puma and yes the space frame means it's barely anything like the road car (a crying shame imo). My point was that if the car was developed to be a WRC car even if it didn't launch all of the development work that went into it will still be to a high standard with the intention of the car being used for WRC. It's as close as you can get without spending a considerable sum for the real thing. And given Toyota are the best in rally right now and Akio Toyoda gave the team a blank cheque it's about as good as you're going to get for this type of car.As I said earlier, where the GR Yaris could be useful is if TGR develop a Rally3 car, as they are much more closely related to road cars (and being 4WD from the factory will help). Even in a Rally2 car, the engine from the GR would likely be the basis, so there would be some crossover. As for the current Rally1 car, well, that's now a space frame chassis with some Yaris-looking panels attached to it, so any link to the road cars is long gone. Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from the GR Yaris at all, as it's a very impressive car, but the link to the WRC machine really doesn't go beyond the roofline in reality.
Probably the most interesting motorsport crossover is the one-make rally series' that have popped up in Italy and Iberia. That's a great idea and does give the car some proper motorsport pedigree. I'd love to see that in the UK, but we're still too obsessed with MK2 Escorts unfortunately.
Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Thursday 11th August 07:14
On Rally2/Rally3 I am surprised they haven't gone down this route yet. I believe the engine is eligible (again, it's not just a random 3 pot from a basic yaris it's a motorsport engine) so I expected to see some Rally2/Rally3 GRY going up against the Skodas & Fords. The only GRY I've seen doing anything like this is Harry Bates in Australia and a few Japanese teams.
If Toyota sold a WRC car and called it the GR Yaris, instead of raiding their road car parts bins, then I'd actually believe what you lot are saying that it's a "ground up design"
In relation to the discussion on how much current rally cars have in common with road cars there was an interesting bit of information on the Finnish TV during last weekends Rally Finland.
Finnish rally broadcasts had several commentators with rallying background (Mikko Hirvonen, Miikka Anttila (Jari-Matti Latvala's co-driver)) and one of them (I don't remember who) commented on the windscreen wipers of Rally 1 cars after some spectator had sent a question on why the wipers are not fast enough on heavy rain. According to the commentator the rules stipulate that the windscreen wiper motor has to come from production car and it is not allowed to modify that in any way.
So perhaps at least the windscreen wiper motor is shared between road and rally cars.
Finnish rally broadcasts had several commentators with rallying background (Mikko Hirvonen, Miikka Anttila (Jari-Matti Latvala's co-driver)) and one of them (I don't remember who) commented on the windscreen wipers of Rally 1 cars after some spectator had sent a question on why the wipers are not fast enough on heavy rain. According to the commentator the rules stipulate that the windscreen wiper motor has to come from production car and it is not allowed to modify that in any way.
So perhaps at least the windscreen wiper motor is shared between road and rally cars.
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