RE: Caterham launches new Super Seven 600 and 2000

[Pflanzgarten]

kambites said:

Equus said:

kambites said:

I doubt there are many brand new cars with a lower total cost of ownership over the first few years than a Seven even if they have half the list price.

But then try comparing on the basis of cost (including depreciation) per mile of actual use... otherwise it's just finest man-maths.

Well yeah, but if someone is comparing something else directly to a Caterham when making a purchase decision, one has to image that they would be intending to use them for similar purposes and hence cover similar mileages? If someone was looking for an all-purpose sports car to cover 10k miles a year in, I doubt a Caterham would be on their shortlist!

Whether it's worth having a low-mileage toy at all is an entirely different (but also interesting) question. For me it is not, which is why I don't own a Caterham.

Edited by kambites on Friday 23 September 15:26

I don't think Equus is right in this instance anyway, people don't expect a Caterham to do 12,000 mikes a year just as they don't expect a BMW 320d to do 2,000 miles so the expectation of running cost v's mileage can't ever work out across the board.

[Equus]

Pflanzgarten said:

I don't think Equus is right in this instance anyway, people don't expect a Caterham to do 12,000 mikes a year just as they don't expect a BMW 320d to do 2,000 miles so the expectation of running cost v's mileage can't ever work out across the board.

I wasn't the one trying to compare ownership costs of a Caterham to those of a mainstream car.

You can't have it both ways: you can't justify the high cost of purchase of a Caterham by comparing its depreciation to that of a mainstream car, whilst then ignoring that fact that the don't depreciate rapidly because by and large they don't see any real use.

I have actually run a Caterham as my everyday car, as a result of which I can tell you that it will be shagged to the point of being virtually worthless after 2 or 3 years of such treatment.

We make up all sorts of man-maths excuses as to why such toys make financial sense, but the truth is that they don't: you just have to decide whether it's a price you're willing to pay.

[kambites]

Equus said:

You can't have it both ways: you can't justify the high cost of purchase of a Caterham by comparing its depreciation to that of a mainstream car, whilst then ignoring that fact that the don't depreciate rapidly because by and large they don't see any real use.

I agree, but this whole part of the discussion started out with someone comparing the list price unfavourably with that of mainstream cars, which is meaningless.

Besides, high mileage Caterhams still hold their value pretty well as long as they're kept in good condition don't they? Whether the upkeep costs over that period will be even remotely reasonable though, I don't know.

[Pflanzgarten]

kambites said:

Equus said:

You can't have it both ways: you can't justify the high cost of purchase of a Caterham by comparing its depreciation to that of a mainstream car, whilst then ignoring that fact that the don't depreciate rapidly because by and large they don't see any real use.

I agree, but this whole part of the discussion started out with someone comparing the list price unfavourably with that of mainstream cars, which is meaningless.

Besides, high mileage Caterhams still hold their value pretty well as long as they're kept in good condition don't they? Whether the upkeep costs over that period will be even remotely reasonable though, I don't know.

So far they have but the rapidly escalating price of a new one puts that in doubt. As I said before, to get a 600 spec'd to how I'd want it it was £39,885.

You could buy a three year old Super Sprint with a couple of thousand miles on the clock for over £10,000 less right now.

[kambites]

Pflanzgarten said:

So far they have but the rapidly escalating price of a new one puts that in doubt. As I said before, to get a 600 spec'd to how I'd want it it was £39,885.

What on earth are you adding to it which costs £10k? I know a limited slip diff is an option and I think weather gear is extra if you want it, but what other worthwhile options are there?

[What The Deuces]

big_rob_sydney said:

Ridiculous price for a very simplistic vehicle. Look at the cheapest new cars on sale in the UK according to google:

Citroen Ami list price from £7,695
Kia Picanto list price from £11,810
MG 3 list price from £12,995
Hyundai i10 list price from £13,430
Dacia Sandero list price from £13,595
Fiat Panda list price from £13,665


These cars are obviously not competitors in terms of what they offer. However, if you look at the manufacturing and materials cost, these cars all have full canopies, air con, and integrated systems like in car entertainment, and so on. The Caterham simply has less of everything, so it should actually cost less in materials cost, and given it is a simplistic car to build, should be cheap. When you compare its minimal list of features to a fully featured car, that fact it costs so much more is just ridiculous.

Quite simply , the more you make the cheaper they get

[Pflanzgarten]

kambites said:

Pflanzgarten said:

So far they have but the rapidly escalating price of a new one puts that in doubt. As I said before, to get a 600 spec'd to how I'd want it it was £39,885.

What on earth are you adding to it which costs £10k? I know a limited slip diff is an option and I think weather gear is extra if you want it, but what other worthwhile options are there?

Models -
£29,990SUPER SEVEN 600

Body colour -
£0 Caribbean Blue

Painted '7' grille -
£0 Without Painted '7' Grille

Paint/decal options -
£1,250 Painted noseband and bonnet Stripe

Painted noseband colour -
£0 Polar White

Roll bar/cage -
£750 With painted roll Bar/Cage

Roll bar/cage colour -
£0 Polar White

Chassis -
£0 Standard Chassis

Floor -
£600 Lowered Floor

Engine differential -
£1,250 With Limited slip differential

Carpeted panels -
£500 Fully carpeted Interior panels – Deep red

Dashboard -
£500 Dashboard – Leather Black

Gearbox and handbrake gaitors -
£150 With Gearbox & handbrake gaitors trimmed in Muirhead fine leather

Gearbox and handbrake gaitors colour -
£0 Burgundy

Side panel -
£1,000 With side panels trimmed in Muirhead fine leather

Side panel colour -
£0 Burgundy

Seat colour -
£1,000 Burgundy

Momo -
£300 Steering wheel – wooden rimmed Motalita

Heater -
£0 With Heater

Boot cover -
£0 Boot cover –

BASE PRICE £29,990.00
CUSTOMISATION £9,895.00
TOTAL £39,885.00

Add to that I would want different wheels and this is without roof and doors although I'd simply go with a tonneau cover.

[kambites]

OK yeah, so adding bling (I think carpet, leather and paint counts as "bling" in a Caterham!) is expensive.

I suspect you could get that stuff added far cheaper if you paid a trimmer to do it. Some of Caterham's options prices are a bit eye-watering. If I was after one I think I'd go for the self-build option and then trim and paint things to my preference as I went along. Looking at the configurator it looks like I'd end up coming in at under £30k for the spec I'd want but obviously I'd be dedicating a fair bit of time to it as well!

Edited by kambites on Friday 23 September 18:46

[Pflanzgarten]

kambites said:

OK yeah, so adding bling (I think carpet, leather and paint counts as "bling" in a Caterham!) is expensive.

I suspect you could get that stuff added far cheaper if you paid a trimmer to do it. Some of Caterham's options prices are a bit eye-watering. If I was after one I think I'd go for the self-build option and then trim and paint things to my preference as I went along. Looking at the configurator it looks like I'd end up coming in at under £30k for the spec I'd want but obviously I'd be dedicating a fair bit of time to it as well!

Edited by kambites on Friday 23 September 18:46

Absolutely, you could easily subtract £3000 from my spec by going for a bog standard interior but I honestly doubt any much more. Plus most folk would add back in weather protection which instantly halves your saving.

Excluding the self build (which I'd argue is bad value for money considering what someone who can afford a £30k toy's hourly rate would be!) anyone who is buying one of these is looking at £35-£40k.

I still stand by my point that either the Super/Sprints are either tremendous value for money or Caterhams are now so expensive new they depreciate.

[BertBert]

FFS what place does "Muirhead fine leather" have in a Caterham? It's marketing gone nuts.

[MF35]

Well, I grew up in the 70s - brown and burnt orange - I'm in! Only thing I’d change would be to spec cycle mudguards instead of the clamshell ones, but that's do-able on the configurator.

Lovely

[kambites]

Pflanzgarten said:

Excluding the self build (which I'd argue is bad value for money considering what someone who can afford a £30k toy's hourly rate would be!) anyone who is buying one of these is looking at £35-£40k.

Yeah you self-build this sort of thing because you want to, not to save money!

I think for me I'd spec weather gear and the LSD and nothing else. Then self-build and do any painting/trimming I wanted as I went along. Not so much for the ~£5-10k saving as for the fact that I'd enjoy it and I'd get to truly spec the car how I wanted it rather than picking something from their catalogue. I'd enjoy making it as much as driving it and I'd enjoy driving it more knowing that I'd made it (if that makes sense).

Edited by kambites on Friday 23 September 21:39

[dhutch]

BertBert said:

FFS what place does "Muirhead fine leather" have in a Caterham? It's marketing gone nuts.

It's nice, people pay it, but yeah. It also costs money!

[Pflanzgarten]

dhutch said:

BertBert said:

FFS what place does "Muirhead fine leather" have in a Caterham? It's marketing gone nuts.

It's nice, people pay it, but yeah. It also costs money!

It isn’t really, look at any Porsche GT thread and it’s all deviated stitching and full leather dash this, that and the other.

People want their toys to be nice.

The whole purpose of these models is their retro looks-a bare black vinyl interior is sort of at odds with it.

Go sit in a sprint and you can see how nice it is in comparison.

[Equus]

BertBert said:

FFS what place does "Muirhead fine leather" have in a Caterham? It's marketing gone nuts.

At least it's not as visually incongruous as the fake wood dashboard - I'm surprised no-one has commented on that yet?

[kambites]

Equus said:

BertBert said:

FFS what place does "Muirhead fine leather" have in a Caterham? It's marketing gone nuts.

At least it's not as visually incongruous as the fake wood dashboard - I'm surprised no-one has commented on that yet?

Is it fake wood? The pictures are too low-res for me to see.

ETA: Curiously their configurator only shows black or leather - no "wood" option at all.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 24th September 08:22

[Equus]

kambites said:

Is it fake wood? The pictures are too low-res for me to see.

Yes.

Zoom in on this one:

[Sandpit Steve]

dhutch said:

BertBert said:

FFS what place does "Muirhead fine leather" have in a Caterham? It's marketing gone nuts.

It's nice, people pay it, but yeah. It also costs money!

Those option prices are mad, for such a simple car. A decent trim shop could probably do the interior options for half those prices on a bad day.

[blearyeyedboy]

Equus said:

At least it's not as visually incongruous as the fake wood dashboard - I'm surprised no-one has commented on that yet?

Well, fake wood is entirely in keeping with the 70s vibe.

It doesn't bother me, really. I can see why it would bother some people though.

[CABC]

cheap black plastic switchgear with the 'wood' is what jars the most for me.