RE: Land Rover previews 'most capable electric SUV'
Discussion
Amazing.
I don't often covet expensive things which are beyond my means, I don't suffer from envy really, and I wouldn't want a petrol or diesel powered Range Rover if you gave me one as a gift, but this is the car I will dream of when I inevitably end up in a Kia dealership buying an (also still quite awesome) EV9.
I don't often covet expensive things which are beyond my means, I don't suffer from envy really, and I wouldn't want a petrol or diesel powered Range Rover if you gave me one as a gift, but this is the car I will dream of when I inevitably end up in a Kia dealership buying an (also still quite awesome) EV9.
The L460 PHEV manages 50-70 electric miles before falling back on petrol. Will this car sell well alongside that?
I've never understood the position some take that range "must be well into 300 miles in all weathers". All that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points (starting with the essential home charger). If those are sorted, actual range is irrelevant. No one ever walked into a showroom and asked how far a diesel RR could go from full to fumes - because it's not an issue. Just seek out a fuel stop (easy) and refill (10mins).
That said, tax policy in the UK will fuel virtually all the sales for this car, which is why it exists.
I've never understood the position some take that range "must be well into 300 miles in all weathers". All that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points (starting with the essential home charger). If those are sorted, actual range is irrelevant. No one ever walked into a showroom and asked how far a diesel RR could go from full to fumes - because it's not an issue. Just seek out a fuel stop (easy) and refill (10mins).
That said, tax policy in the UK will fuel virtually all the sales for this car, which is why it exists.
endorium said:
Wonder how easy it will be for thief's to steal this one....
It will depreciate. 40% in two years maybe. Owners wont care.
It must have massive brakes
The depreciation will be biblical, it'll be 40% in year one that's not a reflection of the car just the market dynamics, there won't be a market for the car used until its price drops precipitously due to how they are sold when new. It will depreciate. 40% in two years maybe. Owners wont care.
It must have massive brakes
No idea what the retail will be but at £200k (like the G wagon EV) the bare costs will be eyewatering something like £4000 a month to lease over 3 years so you're going to want a hand out from the government to help pay for it, and perversely they will oblige having stripped pensioners of their heating allowances so they can assist the wealthy to lease £200,000 3 tonne EVs (it's got to be a bad dream hasn't it?)
Lovely car I'm sure.
plfrench said:
DonkeyApple said:
ducnick said:
Presumably there is potential for much improved reliability too. If they have bought off the shelf batteries and motors and got rid of chocolate crankshafts, complicated locking diff’s ands transfer cases etc and just replaced them with a motor on each wheel that could be a major bonus.
You'd put the unreliability back into the product via the programming. You can easily use programming to replicate heritage characteristics. Maintaining brand values is essential. 
Gecko1978 said:
This will be what £150 to £200k which is fine if you have the funds after all. My question is how much does battery range depreciate over time.
So say it's got 400mile WLTP which is what 350 miles normal driving that's fine. But EVs get good range round town less so at motorway speeds. A RR is really a 4x4 GT so after say 4 years what will the range really be.
It's something I wonder about EVs all the time would a used one make a good buy or is it half the price cos your getting half the car.
It's generally half price because the RRP was enormously marked up to get the initial rental away (burrows finance and discounts etc) and on top of that there are all the taxes and subsidies. It's why RRP is totally irrelevant as a value guide today. Just imagine how much hidden funding JLR have buried in their RRP so as to be able to offer a superficial 6% rounding on their house finance!! So say it's got 400mile WLTP which is what 350 miles normal driving that's fine. But EVs get good range round town less so at motorway speeds. A RR is really a 4x4 GT so after say 4 years what will the range really be.
It's something I wonder about EVs all the time would a used one make a good buy or is it half the price cos your getting half the car.
Logically as the second user you have no interest in paying the tax bills of the first user either!! That's been one of the most insane trends from excess money supply in recent years.
Battery deg is a genuine risk to consider. Modern cell tech is way more advanced than just 5 years ago and critically so are the BMS systems to protect those cells. Which is why we see shocking degradation on early Leafs but very little in new EVs.
EVs also have to settle in to their own depreciation curve that will be different to ICE and I don't believe that has happened yet and needs much more time. We know the curve is different (lenders learned that the hard way when their three year loans matured and revealed they had used ICE modelling to set their terminal values which was completely wrong) but actually drawing the correct curve can't be done yet.
For me, as a consumer who pretty much only buys cars after their first rental the simple solution with an EV is to aim to keep it for ten years and work to a final value of zero. That allows you to simply calculate what the amortised monthly cost is as a worst case scenario.
Where people will have an issue is where they like to chop and change cars every couple of years and use finance to enable that. In those cases they must do what the first renter did and lock in the depreciation on the front end so that they have a fixed cost.
As for when EVs are say 6+ years old and up for sale then each manufacturer has absolutely no choice but to produce a legitimate document that details the history of charge use and the damage to date of the cells in the battery. Those that refuse won't get as good a price and while the car isn't sitting in their balance sheet any more it will still have an impact on their rental cost calculations and make them more expensive than their competition.
There is much for the manufacturers to yet learn. All of it painfully obvious but they're all coming out of quite a long period when none of them have had to engage brain as cheap finance and rampant consumer desire allowed everything to be fudged and ignored. The companies that trade out their legacy staff for ones specifically of the ability to operate in the traditional competitive environment will stand out from those that continue to persist as if everyone is awash with free money.
As for a JLR EV? What they charge for the extended battery warranty will tell us quite quickly whether we want to get involved.
blearyeyedboy said:
Mercutio said:
• If an ICE Range Rover depreciates heavily anyway, what will this thing do? I can imagine it will sell at over list price for two years while the flippers make hay, but in a couple of years time once it’s available at list, will it drop significantly after three years of ownership? Will anyone care I guess if it’s leased?
Luxury vehicles with tax incentives to buy them always depreciate heavily.Why would anyone with a business who could justify this as a business expense not write this off against their taxable income for less money than a second hand one? Why would anyone employed in a high income 6 figure job (where the first digit isn't a "1") not get a Salary Sacrifice lease out of their untaxed income for less money than a second hand nearly-new car out of their taxed income?
This is why BMW i8s had savage depreciation, why Porsche Taycans do now, and any large electric vehicles will while tax relief is structured in this way and doesn't reward people for choosing electric second hand cars.
The cars will therefore depreciate savagely to the level where it's worth it to a second hand buyer, and then depreciate much more slowly.
So new buyers won't care, and buyers in three years will have a more slowly depreciating car.
DonkeyApple said:
That's the key. Ask yourself, what if these people aren't going backwards when it comes to range?
What if the creatures buying these cars are actually the same species as you and also not remotely interested in paying money for a vehicle where the range is less than they need?
If these are also humans and so also thinking the same what is the possible answer to that conundrum?
Most people I know choose train or plane for anything over 2hrs. I just did 1200 miles over a few days and had to stop so many times to rest an EV would have added no extra timeWhat if the creatures buying these cars are actually the same species as you and also not remotely interested in paying money for a vehicle where the range is less than they need?
If these are also humans and so also thinking the same what is the possible answer to that conundrum?
GT9 said:
Gecko1978 said:
My question is how much does battery range depreciate over time.
Degradation is not typically linear, there is usually an early year degradation around the 1% p.a. level that then starts to plateau.The plateau will probably last the life of most UK cars and remain above 90%, or even 95%.
The key thing to understand is that degradation for early EVs from say ten years ago is not representative of recently manufactured cars, the situation is improving all the time.
Imagine a world where the only serious maintenance and cost concern when buying a used ICE car was that its fuel tank might shrink a little during ownership.
Sulphur Man said:
The L460 PHEV manages 50-70 electric miles before falling back on petrol. Will this car sell well alongside that?
I've never understood the position some take that range "must be well into 300 miles in all weathers". All that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points (starting with the essential home charger). If those are sorted, actual range is irrelevant. No one ever walked into a showroom and asked how far a diesel RR could go from full to fumes - because it's not an issue. Just seek out a fuel stop (easy) and refill (10mins).
That said, tax policy in the UK will fuel virtually all the sales for this car, which is why it exists.
This would be the one for me or 550e. Why don’t they do a diesel plug in? That would be the perfect combo imo, EV for short journeys and town work, nice diesel grunt for towing and long distance cruising. I've never understood the position some take that range "must be well into 300 miles in all weathers". All that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points (starting with the essential home charger). If those are sorted, actual range is irrelevant. No one ever walked into a showroom and asked how far a diesel RR could go from full to fumes - because it's not an issue. Just seek out a fuel stop (easy) and refill (10mins).
That said, tax policy in the UK will fuel virtually all the sales for this car, which is why it exists.
Too expensive for me I think though a disco 5 EV would be of interest. I have been annoyed that LR have been so slow to make an EV
I had an iPace for three years. The electric powertrain was vastly nicer to drive (subject to range) than a v6 3.0d 2019 Range Rover vogue se that I had as a courtesy car for a few weeks
The range of my ix50 is plenty for long trips. Filled back up after 280 miles on way to Cornwall while we had breakfast last year. Charging network has improved dramatically in the last year as well
I had an iPace for three years. The electric powertrain was vastly nicer to drive (subject to range) than a v6 3.0d 2019 Range Rover vogue se that I had as a courtesy car for a few weeks
The range of my ix50 is plenty for long trips. Filled back up after 280 miles on way to Cornwall while we had breakfast last year. Charging network has improved dramatically in the last year as well
JD said:
Yes, feels like you could really streamline your internet commenting workflow if you learned how to use copy/paste. But maybe you have a diesel fuelled computer that doesn't have that function.
Wait until someone tells him a £19,000 Vauxhall Corsa 1.5 TD has a diesel engine just like his “GLE 400d AMG Line Premium Plus” 
ALL POWERED IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY
Sulphur Man said:
The L460 PHEV manages 50-70 electric miles before falling back on petrol. Will this car sell well alongside that?
I've never understood the position some take that range "must be well into 300 miles in all weathers". All that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points (starting with the essential home charger). If those are sorted, actual range is irrelevant. No one ever walked into a showroom and asked how far a diesel RR could go from full to fumes - because it's not an issue. Just seek out a fuel stop (easy) and refill (10mins).
That said, tax policy in the UK will fuel virtually all the sales for this car, which is why it exists.
You said "all that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points."I've never understood the position some take that range "must be well into 300 miles in all weathers". All that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points (starting with the essential home charger). If those are sorted, actual range is irrelevant. No one ever walked into a showroom and asked how far a diesel RR could go from full to fumes - because it's not an issue. Just seek out a fuel stop (easy) and refill (10mins).
That said, tax policy in the UK will fuel virtually all the sales for this car, which is why it exists.
You then say "if those are sorted"....
This sums up the mentality and the bizarre optimism that fuels (excuse the pun) the EV debate at the moment.
That is so many "ifs" that you might as well stop talking about reality entirely.
Having been on a journey with my EV owning friend where we had to unplug from a charger after 5 mins due to a lack of ability to connect and charge, then be ICE'd at another charger, then drive 15 mins up the road to another charger which then eventually (slowly) charged after an app was downloaded..
We all know the problems, but any of us who raise them are dismissed by "how many miles do you realistically want to travel in a day, the infrastructure will be sorted" etc etc
Come on!
You know some of us own this class of vehicle because we want to drive far, remotely, and get back again?
It's not all about schlepping back and forth from an industrial estate 20 miles away from home, therefore only requiring home charging.
The UK's charging system is not up to scratch yet.
Gecko1978 said:
This will be what £150 to £200k which is fine if you have the funds after all. My question is how much does battery range depreciate over time.
So say it's got 400mile WLTP which is what 350 miles normal driving that's fine. But EVs get good range round town less so at motorway speeds. A RR is really a 4x4 GT so after say 4 years what will the range really be.
It's something I wonder about EVs all the time would a used one make a good buy or is it half the price cos your getting half the car.
It's generally half price because the RRP was enormously marked up to get the initial rental away (burrows finance and discounts etc) and on top of that there are all the taxes and subsidies. It's why RRP is totally irrelevant as a value guide today. Just imagine how much hidden funding JLR have buried in their RRP so as to be able to offer a superficial 6% rounding on their house finance!! So say it's got 400mile WLTP which is what 350 miles normal driving that's fine. But EVs get good range round town less so at motorway speeds. A RR is really a 4x4 GT so after say 4 years what will the range really be.
It's something I wonder about EVs all the time would a used one make a good buy or is it half the price cos your getting half the car.
Logically as the second user you have no interest in paying the tax bills of the first user either!! That's been one of the most insane trends from excess money supply in recent years.
Battery deg is a genuine risk to consider. Modern cell tech is way more advanced than just 5 years ago and critically so are the BMS systems to protect those cells. Which is why we see shocking degradation on early Leafs but very little in new EVs.
EVs also have to settle in to their own depreciation curve that will be different to ICE and I don't believe that has happened yet and needs much more time. We know the curve is different (lenders learned that the hard way when their three year loans matured and revealed they had used ICE modelling to set their terminal values which was completely wrong) but actually drawing the correct curve can't be done yet.
For me, as a consumer who pretty much only buys cars after their first rental the simple solution with an EV is to aim to keep it for ten years and work to a final value of zero. That allows you to simply calculate what the amortised monthly cost is as a worst case scenario.
Where people will have an issue is where they like to chop and change cars every couple of years and use finance to enable that. In those cases they must do what the first renter did and lock in the depreciation on the front end so that they have a fixed cost.
As for when EVs are say 6+ years old and up for sale then each manufacturer has absolutely no choice but to produce a legitimate document that details the history of charge use and the damage to date of the cells in the battery. Those that refuse won't get as good a price and while the car isn't sitting in their balance sheet any more it will still have an impact on their rental cost calculations and make them more expensive than their competition.
There is much for the manufacturers to yet learn. All of it painfully obvious but they're all coming out of quite a long period when none of them have had to engage brain as cheap finance and rampant consumer desire allowed everything to be fudged and ignored. The companies that trade out their legacy staff for ones specifically of the ability to operate in the traditional competitive environment will stand out from those that continue to persist as if everyone is awash with free money.
As for a JLR EV? What they charge for the extended battery warranty will tell us quite quickly whether we want to get involved.
theicemario said:
JD said:
Yes, feels like you could really streamline your internet commenting workflow if you learned how to use copy/paste. But maybe you have a diesel fuelled computer that doesn't have that function.
Wait until someone tells him a £19,000 Vauxhall Corsa 1.5 TD has a diesel engine just like his “GLE 400d AMG Line Premium Plus” ALL POWERED IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY
Fair play, and you've done me there! Those 2 engines will feel different to use though in fairness, and I'm not sure that you can say the same with EVs really. That is my take on things anyway.
The 3 cylinder engine in a GR Yaris will feel a lot different to use than the V12 engine in a Lamborghini for example. You had a point of difference with ICE, but you don't seem to as much with EVs for me in comparison.
Mercutio said:
You said "all that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points."
You then say "if those are sorted"....
This sums up the mentality and the bizarre optimism that fuels (excuse the pun) the EV debate at the moment.
That is so many "ifs" that you might as well stop talking about reality entirely.
Having been on a journey with my EV owning friend where we had to unplug from a charger after 5 mins due to a lack of ability to connect and charge, then be ICE'd at another charger, then drive 15 mins up the road to another charger which then eventually (slowly) charged after an app was downloaded..
We all know the problems, but any of us who raise them are dismissed by "how many miles do you realistically want to travel in a day, the infrastructure will be sorted" etc etc
Come on!
You know some of us own this class of vehicle because we want to drive far, remotely, and get back again?
It's not all about schlepping back and forth from an industrial estate 20 miles away from home, therefore only requiring home charging.
The UK's charging system is not up to scratch yet.
Odd response. Maybe read my post again? You then say "if those are sorted"....
This sums up the mentality and the bizarre optimism that fuels (excuse the pun) the EV debate at the moment.
That is so many "ifs" that you might as well stop talking about reality entirely.
Having been on a journey with my EV owning friend where we had to unplug from a charger after 5 mins due to a lack of ability to connect and charge, then be ICE'd at another charger, then drive 15 mins up the road to another charger which then eventually (slowly) charged after an app was downloaded..
We all know the problems, but any of us who raise them are dismissed by "how many miles do you realistically want to travel in a day, the infrastructure will be sorted" etc etc
Come on!
You know some of us own this class of vehicle because we want to drive far, remotely, and get back again?
It's not all about schlepping back and forth from an industrial estate 20 miles away from home, therefore only requiring home charging.
The UK's charging system is not up to scratch yet.
I'm not an EV owner, but have rented a few and found public charging unreliable and pricey.
Sulphur Man said:
The L460 PHEV manages 50-70 electric miles before falling back on petrol. Will this car sell well alongside that?
I've never understood the position some take that range "must be well into 300 miles in all weathers". All that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points (starting with the essential home charger). If those are sorted, actual range is irrelevant. No one ever walked into a showroom and asked how far a diesel RR could go from full to fumes - because it's not an issue. Just seek out a fuel stop (easy) and refill (10mins).
That said, tax policy in the UK will fuel virtually all the sales for this car, which is why it exists.
Id imagine the usecases this vehicle will see will be different to that of your normal EV. Of course lots will get used as Chelsea tractors but you'll also have more requirements to drive 300 miles to the weekends shoot, towing the horse box or racecar etcI've never understood the position some take that range "must be well into 300 miles in all weathers". All that matters is charging speed and convenient access to charging points (starting with the essential home charger). If those are sorted, actual range is irrelevant. No one ever walked into a showroom and asked how far a diesel RR could go from full to fumes - because it's not an issue. Just seek out a fuel stop (easy) and refill (10mins).
That said, tax policy in the UK will fuel virtually all the sales for this car, which is why it exists.
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